| Author | Message | ||
     Pwillikers |
This subject has not come up in a while and since there have been many stator failures since the prior thread was archived, I thought I'd revive it. I intend to query the NHTSA to see if they are considering action. The only avenue open to pressure HD to come up with a permanent fix or extend warranties for failing charging systems (barring a class action suit) is to file a complaint with the NHTSA. If you've had a charging system failure, please, right now, file a complaint at: https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml You'll need your VIN, the mileage and the date of the failure. All it takes is five minutes. Doing so will go a long way towards getting the actual number of failures on record. Some have argued that an engine ceasing to operate while riding is not a safety issue. Further debate on this subject is unproductive. File a complaint and let the NHTSA rule if it's a safety issue. Thanks. (Message edited by pwillikers on June 20, 2012) | ||
| Mako |
done | ||
| Crabby |
Will file in a bit when I get my bike back from Warranty | ||
| Jdmagri |
done. Everyone please do this, it is the only way that Harley Davidson may be held responsible for this design issue. In traffic with a V-twin engine I believe that the engine stalling is a major safety issue. | ||
| Baf |
We could go back and forth all day, but I don't see it as a safety issue. The engine isn't going to just stall out of nowhere; you will have warning beforehand that voltage is dropping and you've got issues. It's no more a safety issue than running out of gas or having the belt break. | ||
| Jdmagri |
Baf, Do you agree that Harley Davidson should be held responsible for the serious design flaws of the stator? When components fail at the rate that these do, the corporation is responsible for permanently correcting the issue. I'm an engineer in the automotive world and I deal with these things all the time. I do agree that the rider should be paying enough attention that a low voltage situation is indicated by the battery light and voltage readout, however running out of gas is a user error, not a design flaw and breaking a belt will allow the bike to coast without the impact of brake torquing, which is dangerous in fast moving traffic. | ||
| Yugi |
How about having no lights? It's a safety issue. | ||
| Baf |
This isn't about Harley being held responsible though. The NHTSA is a channel for issues that could cause a crash, and a stator failure is not one of those things. You'll still have lights. The battery isn't going to instantly die - there's still time between the fuel pump/ECM not having enough power to run and the battery being so low it can't power the lights. You would have been warned long ago by way of CEL and battery light. | ||
| Froggy |
I rode for over half an hour at night with the battery light and CEL on with the system voltage message, my lights were fine. I had over a half an hour of riding time, and could of gone further but I found an area with plenty of hotels just in case if I couldn't get a tow. If anything, your fuel pump/injectors will shut off first from lack of voltage, not your lights.
No, my Blast has a design flaw, it spontaneously runs out of gas with no warning. There are numerous 1125 owners who have LFL malfunctions that either don't come on or come on at the wrong time.
My 1125CR came equipped with a lever that I can squeeze that disconnects the engine from the transmission. When I squeeze that lever, engine braking instantly stops. I've had to use it before when I was fiddling with my gloves and accidentally caught the kill switch. That said, you should file a report with the NHTSA. | ||
| Pwillikers |
Like I said... "Some have argued that an engine ceasing to operate while riding is not a safety issue. Further debate on this subject is unproductive. File a complaint and let the NHTSA rule if it's a safety issue." | ||
| Mako |
one of mine died and caused slight skidding, was popping and sputtering so I gave a twist and got to @9k rpm and it died pretty abruptly. Just got it out of the shop for stator repair so I wasn't looking to close at voltage. I think it was @ 11.2 but went right to nine after it stalled. Rear end stepped out when I was getting off a busy street. probably a little to quickly . | ||
| Yugi |
When VR fails, the lights also fail, including blowing the headlight off. This is a safety issue. | ||
| Froggy |
The VR is not the stator. | ||
| Timebandit |
> "Everyone please do this, it is the only way that Harley Davidson may be held responsible for this design issue." You're really trying to stick it to HD because they're the familiar face. Yes, they're left holding the bag, but it isn't exactly clear that BMC/HD is the party who is directly responsible for this problem. Rotax designed the Helicon with input from BMC. Rotax manufactured a crankshaft with an oiling port and a rotor with no oiling port. It isn't clear if the decision to leave out the oiling port in the rotor came from Rotax, in which case Rotax made a decision to screw HD. It's also possible that the decision might have come from HD, if they had an intention to screw their customers. I think that such a decision coming from HD is far less likely. In all likelihood, Rotax decided to skip a manufacturing step, and BMC/HD didn't recognize what had been done until it was too late. The decision to leave out the rotor oiling port resulted in: A) decreased manufacturing cost for Rotax (good for Rotax); B) increased failure rates for stators (bad for HD warranty); C) increased used part sales (good for Rotax). I doubt that the decision to leave out the oiling port in the rotor came from either HD or BMC. More likely it was simply an oversight in due diligence on the part of BMC, or the failure of BMC/HD to recognize that Rotax was making a design change that could prove costly to someone else. Once the problem was recognized, EBR responded by putting the oiling port into the rotor's design spec. We have to consider the possibility that Rotax did what they did to screw us and HD at the same time. It may be that Rotax just pulled the wool over everyone's eyes at BMC/HD, and that BMC/HD didn't do enough due diligence to prevent the screwing. We may be totally off-base in blaming HD for this problem. It's easy to hate HD because they shuttered the Buell brand. It's likely we should be blaming Rotax instead of HD. | ||
| Yugi |
It's doesn't matter who is responsible, and who was wrong. What does matter who the manufacturer is, whom you can sue. | ||
| Timebandit |
ROTFLMFAO. One way to deal with the problem is to be unhappy, complain, and to want to sue somebody. Another way to deal with the problem is to spend $175 to have your rotor fixed, and view that $175 expense as a delayed purchase cost for your bike that you bought for peanuts, and move on with your life. Which method do you think is more likely to lead you to a happier outcome? Which method is going to provide you the easiest route to the desired result? Do you really want to consume years of your time and effort trying to sue Harley Davidson? Or are you willing to just accept that it cost you $175 and an afternoon with a wrench to make the problem go away forever? For me, spending $175 and putting the problem behind me produced a guaranteed win. I can't even buy an hour of a lawyer's time for what it cost me to make the problem go away. Lawsuit? Come on. You're dreaming. No lawyer is going to want to take this case on contingency, and anyone would be a fool to put their own money into litigating it when you can make the problem go away for pocket change. The only chance you've got other than spending the $175 to fix the bike is to hope that there will be a compulsory recall. File your complaint, but don't go holding your breath. (Message edited by timebandit on June 26, 2012) | ||
| Yugi |
I have the solution from EBR installed. But I'm not sure how long the stator will survive with that fix. After that I will need to replace the stator again. And you know the price. It will be OK for me, as I have extended warranty till October 2016. But what to do after that, when the stators will become unavailable from HD? The only solution is to sue them. | ||
| Timebandit |
Everyone knows that parts are going to become a serious a problem sooner or later. If that worries you, then maybe you should get out now while you can get out whole. It's only going to become worse later on. Regarding lawsuits, I think you're going to be fighting an uphill battle. They have no obligation to make parts of any kind as of seven years after the date that Buell was discontinued. If you want to sue them over this stator business, you need to sue them now, not later on. Laches. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_%28equity%29 I still don't think it's worth the trouble. If the stator is a problem, just follow Hildstrom's lead and rewind it yourself. | ||
| Sprintst |
To be fair, $175 plus the special tools, rotor nut, gaskets, time....... But agree,fix it and move on with your life It's about the price of a set of tires by the time you are done. Who doesn't go through those like candy? | ||
| Mako |
$175 is great. didn't have a bike for 3 months last summer for warranty work. With about 5k miles on the clock. still have to make payments and insurance bill isn't small. I didn't really account for this in my budget. I could have had a ecm and exhaust by now, but I have to fix my charging system instead... not quite as exciting as go fast parts. | ||
| Guambra2001 |
Just filed, it really just takes a couple of minutes and it can't hurt. | ||
| Pyrogen |
Do I file a report for each time my stator has failed or is one sufficient? | ||
| Pwillikers |
HA! Great question. I'm not sure if the NHTSA provides guidelines for this circumstance but I'd suggest you file a report for each and annotate them as repeat failures. Let the NHTSA sort it out. | ||
| Ohbuellman |
Just filed two reports...working on the third stator. | ||
| Nikponcherello |
I filed. It is a potential safety issue. I was in the middle lane of 3 lanes of 75 mph traffic when it stranded me. I had a hard time getting to either side because I was decelerating. If I had been able to accelerate or even maintain my speed it would have been simple. I chose the right shoulder and I think the car behind me that was bearing down didn't see me until late. It could have been ugly. At the time, I didn't realize either that I had lost all lights and blinkers at once. Yes, I had a battery light that morning. So I bump started it. I hadn't ridden the bike in a few weeks and assumed that the battery was a bit low, that it would charge itself on the way to work and I'd be fine. Imagine being in the middle lane when this happens. The commuter behind you isn't going to politely slow down with you and throw his flashers on when you start to slow down for no reason. He's going to look up at the last second and then swerve left or right to get past you without disengaging the cruise control. And usually without his blinker. I had to try to guess which way people would go while looking over my shoulder. | ||
| Nikponcherello |
Timebandit, With all due respect, and I mean that, because I've read a lot of your posts and you seem to be very intelligent on the subject of these bikes and very level headed; the idea that this "problem" is only worth $175, isn't a safety issue depending on the circumstances of the failure, and isn't HDs responsibility are all very surprising stances to take. You're trying to hard on this one to defend HD for some reason. The fix will likely cost anyone 2x $175 to do it half-assed, and at least 3x to do it right with the correct permanent corrective action. And the consumer doesn't go tracking down 2nd and 3rd tier subsuppliers with quality issues. The correct channel is to hold the OEM accountable for the issue, the people who sell the product and accept your money. If HD can push that cost to Rotax then more power to them. It's HD responsibility to manage the quality of the supply base, to properly control and validate all changes to the product. The HD top brass and engineers all make more money than the ones at the supplier's plant. HD gets the black-eye when they ship crap from their showroom floor. That's the deal in the industry. | ||
| Duphuckincati |
Cost me $900+ with the early full fix-it kit. But then again I got my CR (with the high-bars installed)for $5300 out the door/on the road. So I ain't bitchen too much. | ||
| Glide |
How much the repair costs is not the issue, HD is failing to stand behind the product they sold. It took less effort to file the report than to write this post. Granted the chance of HD being forced to correct the problem is slim there is no chance if we do not hang together and file reports when ever we have a problem. I have had several HD motorcycles and the stators and regulators have all failed in under 20,000 miles. The difference is that I could buy a product from ACCEL that would last and be lifetime warrantied for less money than a stock part. | ||
| Coastrambler |
Wish I'd seen this thread a long time ago. HD has actually stood by me pretty well. FORTH stator failure was way after warranty period. Milwaukee stepped up and had the stator and rotor replaced. That was about 5,000 miles back. Seems to have cleared a lot of my problems. I no longer need to use the battery tender. Can let it set a month and it fires right up. This on a '09 1125R of course, 27,000+ miles on it now. | ||
| Pwillikers |
The NHTSA has commenced an investigation. If you've had a charging system failure and not yet done so, please file a complaint with the NHTSA. http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/downloa d/doc/UCM431179/INIM-PE12035-54388.pdf | ||
| Whippetlovr |
Is there any sense in Canadian owners logging a complaint on that site, or is it just for US bikes? | ||
| Dannybuell |
The online complaint form does not work properly. the parts problem drop down list doesn't populate and it won't proceed without that being filled in. do the email version. |
