| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
(The "no spare motor" doesn't mean Rob's second motor blew up... it means the team could not afford a spare motor to start with... which just goes to show how much the team has overcome just to get this far already....) | ||
| Timebandit |
I don't think anybody asked Rob to disclose confidential information about his personal customer/supplier relationship, or the goodwill support he may/may not be getting from EBR. I certainly did not ask about that. You're right -- it's none of my business. I did ask what had failed on the bike. I was disappointed not to get any sort of real answer. Normally, racing teams don't try to hide the reasons that lead to a DNS or DNF result. It's typically something that is openly announced at the paddock. Everyone who follows racing understands that new designs have growing pains, and that the race track has to be thought of as a developmental testbed for new products. The conspicuous secrecy about what is breaking is stressing my faith in the product and only serves to promote fear, uncertainty and doubt about the 1190RS. I don't think that secrecy is a good approach, but then my opinion does not matter as I have no skin in the game right now. That said, I am a well heeled consumer who could write a check to buy an 1190RS, RX, SX or AX as my next bike, so I am keeping a close eye on the RS' success in this year's AMA circuit. Unfortunately, all this secrecy is only encouraging me to keep my wallet on the hip and look elsewhere. The secrecy bothers me as much if not more than the bike's problems themselves. Just my $0.02. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Fair enough, except maybe for the transparency part. I don't think there is a team out there that doesn't try and put a positive public spin on things. The truth gets out eventually, but generally from other channels, or is revealed after the team has had a chance to come up with a solution. | ||
| 01fxdx |
i don't recall seeing any yamaha or honda products out there rolling onto a showroom at $40k plus. i do recall seeing some interview footage of the father claiming this to be a bike you can roll out and go racing on. further, the major manufacturers involved have several irons in the fire. ebr is building road racing equipment. i realize there are no warranties on race stuff, but 2 in a row? and likely paid for the second, only to see it fail? ebr knows where this bike is going, genius marketing prevents a company from allowing the product to grenade twice consecutively on such a big stage. | ||
| Torquehd |
Make that 296 people. Come on Badweb patrons, let's help a brother. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
In both races, Sat. & Sunday, except for a very small glitch, a shifter bolt, opps, on Geoff's bike on Sunday they both ran flawlessly and WERE contenders all race with Geoff going from 16th and the back of the pack to 13th after a few seconds pitting. Qualified 5th and ran that all race on Sat. Enough said about their durability. Move on, its racing at a high level. (Message edited by Bob_thompson on April 24, 2012) | ||
| Black |
Brother helped....a little anyway. I'm sure that when Robrob knows what went wrong, he will say so. He seems to be a straight shooter and up-front sort of guy. May take some time to tear things down. We're on your side Rob. What does Erik say? "Never quit!" Hang in there brother! | ||
| Jetbuilder |
Rob I feel terrible for you guys I met Shawn years ago at VIR and he was top notch I assume you are as well. I was unable to send any cash last time due to Medical bills but i will do my best to send in a few bucks to help you get out of this hole. i agree with the others here I would not race again till EBR fixes this motor once and for all. You should not have to race at the cost of a motor per race. This bike should be the same motor as the EBR bikes period. Just my two cents. a dedicated Buell owner | ||
| Jetbuilder |
Let me be clear I am not accusing EBR of any shaddy activities I just think that if thsi bike is supposed to be using the same motor internals as the EBR bikes then they would or should be very interested in determining and fixing this issue once and for all. I was not critisizing the effort of Rob or Shwan. Red | ||
| Timebandit |
"ebr knows where this bike is going, genius marketing prevents a company from allowing the product to grenade twice consecutively on such a big stage." In some respects, grenading in the race and causing a DNF would be more embarrassing than grenading in practice and causing a DNS: Not everyone sees a DNS. When you have a DNS with a privateer team, most people don't even notice. The problem is often written off as being due to a privateer team not having their equipment ready. Everyone sees a DNF. It happens in real-time while everyone is watching. Once you're in the race, if the bike grenades, then the brand is having a mechanical failure on the big stage while everyone is watching. That's embarrassing for the factory, regardless of whether it happens to the factory team or to a privateer. Everyone sees the mechanical failure in real time. It's impossible to miss it. THAT's really embarrassing. | ||
| Timebandit |
Let me be clear I am not accusing EBR of any shady activities I just think that if thsi bike is supposed to be using the same motor internals as the EBR bikes then they would or should be very interested in determining and fixing this issue once and for all. I like to think that the reason that the factory bikes are still running when the privateer bike is not is attributable to the number of hours on the motors. I would guess that Shawn's ride has more track hours on it than the factory rides. That's a nice way to look at it, giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. Time will tell. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
.... | ||
| Brumbear |
Could you just jam an 1125 in there and run it, That will get some race time and attention good or bad  | ||
| Timebandit |
There's an idea -- at $5k, the whole 1125 bike is a hell of a lot cheaper than the 1190RS motor!  | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
lmao | ||
| Black |
This thread has about as many facts as an episode of "Ancient Aliens" on H2. Anybody for waiting to see what REALLY happened? | ||
| Rodrob |
All, I apologize for not offering a clear explanation of what happened at Road Atlanta. Timebandit; I hear you loud and clear and am on the page with you. I fully admit to being completely naive about the correct protocol in such matters and that I feel like I am walking a tightrope between what I owe to our supporters both from here and the factory. What I have learned from other race teams in the pits is that the response from a factory team member to a failure is that it is always an "electrical issue". So I tried to keep my sense of humor by saying that we had a failed flux capacitor. I agree that transparency is the best course, because anything else smacks of bullshit and bullshit makes everything stink. But EBR has valid concerns that something we are doing might be causing the issue. I don't think so, as Shawn is one of the most experienced V-twin racers in the business, but it is an ongoing investigation. Were it me, I would simply state the facts as known, and assure everyone that I was working toward the best solution possible. It is, after all, a race motor with very tight tolerances, that is still in development. I think most understand that things can and will break. Recall that we ran several races with the motor stock and had no issues even though we reved the piss out of it. Reepicheep; You are absolutely correct. EBR is not obligated to support us at all. We are not a factory team; but they have. For that I am very grateful. However this is a somewhat unique situation. Here in L.A. I could throw a rock in any direction and probably hit a very competent IL4 engine builder. High quality race components are freely available from many sources. I could build a IL4 race motor for a fraction of what an 1190RS motor costs. That's not EBR's fault. They are dealing with the same economics of scale. They are however the only source for 1190RS parts and knowledge which puts a greater burden on the privateer racing their product. As a new, small company, I feel it is in their best interest to see all their bikes do well in competition and I am confident that they desire this as well. But the question is, as a small company, can they afford to give us the level of support that we need to be competitive. It's not a matter of desire I believe, but capital. The same goes for me. The bottom line is that we had the exact same problem at Road Atlanta as Daytona. EBR is coming to the rescue. I don't know if this is a total fluke, or some underlying problem. I do know that I can't afford to be a test bed, without some insurance. Again, not EBR's fault, just my reality. Unfortunately the damage to our program has been done. We are struggling on so many levels right now that I just don't know if we can recover. Our high risk voyage was always in a fragile ship. I want to be clear that I have absolutely no regrets and have nothing but admiration for EBR and the fantastic bike that they have built. I wish that I could host a track day and let you all ride it. I have had the ride of my life. I have fielded an AMA Race team with a breakthrough bike and one of the best riders in the business. If nothing else happens from here, I can ride off knowing that I gave it everything I could. I have met extraordinary people and been places I never thought I would. I have seen how a common goal can unite people of all races, religion, political, economic and social strata, when ideology is put aside and achievement is what matters. I hope that we can continue. The next few days will tell the tale. Thanks for all the insight and support. See you out there. | ||
| Buellmojo |
"Oh, and lets say a brand new race prepped 1190RS motor is $15,000." A 2011/2012 KTM 1190 RC8 R Race Spec can be found for around $19,999, EBR 1190 motor $15,000? Wow, I hope you are off quite a bit on that price! | ||
| Black |
I'm sure that EBR and Rodrob will make all the facts known when all the facts are known. Until then, everybody help Rodrob out as you can. Money talks and .....well you know the rest! | ||
| Rodrob |
I would ask that everyone hold off on financial support for the time being. Things a very tentative and I just don't think it's ethical for me to accept it at this time. You have all been very generous. Thank you. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
i think my head might explode | ||
| Jetbuilder |
I would think that Rotax would be in the mix as well if there is a catastrophic engine failure in multiple engines. I build jet engines for the largest engine manufacturer in the world and we get involved in all engine failures even if the last shop visit and overhaul was not done by us. The reason for this is to run to ground the exact cause of the failure to capture the number of potential defective engines in the field. So having said that there is alot of value in having EBR/Rotax deal with this. I realize as Rob said they have no obligation to fix this but as we all know this community (Racing/MC) is a small one and we all know there are many who do not want to see EBR/Erik be a profitable and expanding business. We all here want this to work and I think there is value in us knowing what is going on. So that we can argue on there behalf with correct information to the world of EBR naysayers who love to give us all crap when they see a "DNF/DNS" listed on the AMA board. I know we all like to thumb our noses at the establishment (IL4 community)and be different buts lets face it the true goal should be to have as many EBR bikes out there as possible so this needs to be run to ground quickly. Red | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Rob, thats integrity at the highest level. I hope EBR and all the Elves will be there for you. This statement by you really holds true: "I feel it is in their best interest to see all their bikes do well in competition and I am confident that they desire this as well. But the question is, as a small company, can they afford to give us the level of support that we need to be competitive. It's not a matter of desire I believe, but capital. The same goes for me." I totally agree. Hang in there if you can and best of luck. From a true fan and I hope to see you at Millers. Bob | ||
| Timebandit |
I agree with Red. It's in EBR/Rotax best interest to eliminate the problem, and to the extent that Rob and Shawn have been doing very expensive field testing for the manufacturer of a new product, they should get a large dose of help. Thanks for the comments, Rob. I appreciate that you're stuck in the middle. Exactly what was it that happened at Daytona? Broken valves? Hitting the piston? Loss of timing? Maybe the nature of the damage has already been discussed, but if it was then I missed it. I seem to remember a pic of a snapped valvestem, but no official announcement beyond that snapshot. We all know that there are a limited number of things that can cause the breakage of a valve stem. Does anyone know if the 1190RS is an interference/non-interference motor? As far as the thought of Shawn doing something that causes the issue, I don't buy it. The engine's design can either handle the RPM or it can't, and you guys shouldn't be given the blame for running it hard in a race. It's not as if valves bust for no good reason. There are a finite number of mechanical causes to the problem. The manufacturer needs to step up and own the problem, so that people like Rob don't blow their budget exposing manufacturing defects. This is a situation where not knowing facts is just killing everyone who knows how to build a high HP engine, and encourages everyone to engage in speculation. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Hang in there Rob When you can let us know how we can help. We all want the Crotch rocket program to get back on track. Those of us that have worked with you and Shawn loved every minute of it. We are all hooked on racing with you folks. When things look bad and have faith it will get better. And by the way I don't think you can stop Badweather folks from sending donations for the program. | ||
| Rsh |
I would think the pockets of EBR are a bit deeper now with Hero Motocorp behind them, after all Hero supposedly has a billion dollar cash reserve. Support of all the EBR bikes in the paddock seems like the right thing to do, especially at this early stage of race development. EBR and Hero do not want to be linked to having reliability issues at the national level let alone the international stage. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Often times the what appears to the the problem is not the problem, but a symptom. I saw the symptom at Daytona. The list of possible causes is relatively short. I suspect the problem is related to cycle life of component(s). I very much am curious as to the root cause. I know the motor was refreshed after Daytona. The question is the extent of the work. The hard part of developing a race motor is arriving at the life cycle duration of the parts. Anybody that races has to face the question of in house motor work or farming it out. That is one TOUGH decision, and in most cases has only one answer. Somewhere between the Top Fuel racer's rebuild after every pass, and the 250 Ninja Racer's two seasons of reliable use is the answer. Being a privateer on this level is mighty tough and expensive. I wish the best of luck and encouragement to find the solution. | ||
| Brumbear |
If and I mean if I have no idea what IT is, a valve issue I wouldn't be surprised. The 1125 engine has IMO sucked a few valves in it's day. But I wish you the best of luck and will do all I can to keep Buell name in the forefront!! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Amen to that! For perspective, my kids first bike, a 1995 Kawasaki KX-60, has rebuild intervals published. 10 hours or three races between complete top end tear downs, including a new piston. And thats a kiddie low end bike for local MX play races. Three races between rebuilds... with each race being what, a 10 minute heat? My buddies 2006 CRF-450 (with electric start, and trivial to make street legal in Ohio) was a little better. It let you run 30 hours between top end rebuilds (which included a new piston) if you are just riding recreationally. I think they had the same "3 race rebuild" for competition use. He pulled the piston after just a couple thousand miles of very light street / recreational use (much of which was following my fat ass on a KDX-200, or chasing kids around on CRF-50's or the KX-60), and sure enough, it was out of spec and had to be replaced. Again, that was a street / enduro bike for old fat guys like me to play on... if you really wanted to race them you had to make them even edgier than that. That CRF made maybe 45 HP out of a 450cc motor. That would be 90 HP from a 900 cc motor if you put it in a twin configuration. The 1190 is putting 170 or so HP from 1200 CC's... It boggles the mind. For what that's worth... As you are a potential consumer, I get your concerns TimeBandit. But to get to the place where these motors are failing, current evidence suggests you have to be (literally) drafting Josh Hayes down the long straight at Daytona, holding 200+ MPH for an extended period. Where, exactly, do you plan on riding your future 1190?  (Message edited by reepicheep on April 25, 2012) | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
good point. these bikes are being asked to deliver a consistent 100+% and not just on a dyno but pushing through the air with a rider. you will find the week spots, bad harmonics and hard limits of any machine under those conditions. |
