| Author | Message | ||
     Yugi |
So the following parts and tools will be needed to replace the rotor: From H-D dealer: Stator cover gasket: R0008.1AM GASKET $11.96 Rotor nut: CD0032.1AMA NUT, HEX, M24 X 1.5 $23.40 Loctite: 98618-03 LOCTITE 272 THREADLOCKER 10ML 37387 $13.99 From EBR: The rotor: Y0533.1B6 $425 - $250 core deposit = $175 Crankshaft locking tool: B-48858-A $59.09 From Harbor Freight: 300 ft-lb torque wrench $70 http://www.harborfreight.com/3-4-quarter-inch-driv e-click-stop-torque-wrench-808.html 32mm socket $4.50 http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/sockets-ra tchets/32mm-x-12-drive-deep-wall-socket-67791.html adapter from 3/4" to 1/2" $4.50 http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/sockets-ra tchets/3-piece-impact-socket-adapter-set-67936.htm l Heat gun. Anything else I'm missing? (Message edited by yugi on April 18, 2012) | ||
| Black |
I would recommend you talk with a local motorcycle shop or machine shop when looking for a torque wrench. I'm in the market myself and have seen them from a few bucks to over $1000. Not sure where the "sweet spot" is (money-wise) for an adequate wrench. Good luck. Please let us know how your choice works out. | ||
| Yugi |
BTW, which threadlocker to use for the sprag clutch bolts? The manual says loctite 648. Should I use it? | ||
| Timebandit |
you might be able to get by without the new gasket if you don't damage your old one. but you know how it goes -- if you buy it, you won't tear your old gasket, and if you don't buy it, you will. threadlocker? that's a really good question. i did this months ago, so my memory is a little foggy, but i seem to remember that i was skeptical about 648 because the new manual specs didn't specifically mention 272 on the sprag clutch bolts, and i was concerned that 648 might fail due to the temps. i had already caught a couple of errors in the 2010 manual, so i wanted to verify that i wasn't looking at a misprint. of course 272 isn't what you'd want to use on those bolts anyway, because it's 450*F for M25 and larger. i was thinking that the answer would be the 450*F red threadlocker for 1-inch or less: 271. keep in mind that the 271/272 threadlockers are PERMANENT attachment threadlockers for different sized threads. they're intended for things that get put on and aren't expected to be taken off. and if you do plan on taking them off, you need to break the threadlocker down with heat. when I sent my rotor to EBR, I didn't disassemble everything. i sent them the complete rotor, sprag clutch and starter gear assembly; because we hadn't discussed exactly what i should send them, i just sent the whole assembly.* much to my amazement, the guy who rebuilds the 1190 motors told me that he used 648 when he reassembled things for me. if i were doing this myself, i probably would have chosen 271, but they chose 648. go figure. * they probably DON'T want people doing what I did -- sending in the complete assembly. i'm willing to bet that they prefer that you disassemble the sprag clutch and starter gear and send them only the rotor, and that you do the disassembly/reassembly yourself. | ||
| Timebandit |
i wasn't too excited about the $79 torque wrench at HF. the reviews on their web site say it sucks. the snap-on product costs about $650. that's a pretty wide spread in prices. for as infrequently as you might use it, buying might not make sense. it might be worth calling around to the tool rental shops to rent a good one instead of buying. my experience with HF impact sockets is that they are made from soft steel and deform in short order, and then screw up your lug nuts. i returned mine within a week of when i bought them. i bought an "Allen" brand 1/2" drive socket at Menards that held up really well for the rotor job. about $12. | ||
| Neufey |
If you're looking for budget friendly torque wrenches, you can try craftsman, http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_009314250 00P?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2 I own one for home use and I have the calibration checked annually and it never seems to be out much more than 1 ftlb or so. | ||
| Baf |
I plan on just getting a long breaker bar and calculating weight placement to get 300 ft/lbs when I do mine. I just bought a piece of uber high tensile strength titanium rod, to use to DIY my own crank locking tool. Do I really need a new rotor nut though? I thought it was just a convenience issue with cleaning the old one; is it actually a consumable item though? I was considering attacking the rotor job this weekend, but if I need a new nut, that stops me dead in the water (unless I can find a local dealer with one). Then again, I didn't know loctite 272 would be so hard to find either. Sigh. As far as mailing in your old rotor with all the extra parts onboard - it doesn't seem that will even be an issue for most people. I assume most people will buy off the site and mail their old rotor back after swapping them out. That's what I did, at least. @Neufey - they don't have any (affordable) ones that go up to 300ft/lbs last I checked. (Message edited by baf on April 18, 2012) | ||
| Dannybuell |
I have read here that you do NEED a new nut because, it is concave and flattens out with torque. Works 1 time. | ||
| Yugi |
OK, I'm willing to buy any torque wrench from a local store. I haven't seen any of them rated at 300 lb-ft so far, except at HF. I'm planning to return it back to the store after use, so the price is not an issue. I will be using a Loctite 648 on a sprag clutch bolts. BTW, bought it from here: http://www.mrocenter.com/p/2158767?affiliateid=1 And also I forgot the guides for pulling/installing stator cover. I already bought a few of 6mm bolts from local hardware store. I will remove the caps out of them, and use them as a guides. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Couple of things... Neufey - that torque wrench only goes to 150 ft-lbs. Baf - Ti isn't a good choice for the lock pin, tensile isn't what you're worried about, shear is. Material Typical values for shear modulus (GPa) (at room temperature) Diamond 478. Steel 79.3 Copper 44.7 Titanium 41.4 Glass 26.2 Aluminum 25.5 Above copied from Wikipedia Z | ||
| Timebandit |
i thought about asking my next door neighbor to make a bunch of crank lockers out of hardened steel rods and metric bolts. it's probably not worth the trouble for him unless a lot of people are interested and it would be worth his time to make a bunch. i'd be careful about buying loctite 272 in small 10cc bottles from places like ebay and amazon -- when i did my research, i checked the henckels web site, and noticed that 272 wasn't listed for sale in small 10cc bottles, only in larger industrial sizes. i did find it on ebay and amazon though. so i called customer support. they said that they don't sell 272 in the little consumer sized bottles because it's an industrial-only product, not a consumer product. they warned me that if someone is selling 272 in little bottles on the internet, that the product was unauthorized, and had to be repackaged and/or counterfeit. be sure you buy a large bottle from a reputable supplier or you might end up getting a counterfeit product. counterfeit 272 on your rotor nut ... that could be a disaster. i was at the local auto supply wholesaler today, and noticed they had a big display of loctite products. 272 was conspicuously absent. i asked about it, and the counter guy looked it up. he told me he could order the industrial line, but that was a special order item. the price wasn't bad, but he said his minimum order was 6 units and he wanted me to take the better portion of the 6-pack or he wouldn't order it in. sigh. if finding the 272 turns out to be a problem, maybe it would be worth the effort to do a group buy. when i talked to EBR about 272, the 1190 motor building guy mentioned that he thought that this rotor job sounded simple enough for end users, but in reality some of the supplies / tools are sufficiently exotic that he suggested that people should hire a properly equipped tech to do the work for them. Regarding that nut -- yes, it's a single use item. Somehwere around here there's a post where i summarized my discussion about this with one of the design engineers at EBR. According to him it's a MUST replace item. MUST. His words. | ||
| Yugi |
10ml bottles were available before, but it was discontinued. H-D dealerships sell it though. I doubt that H-D will sell counterfeit product. http://kscdirect.com/item/LOC%2B37387/LOCTITE%2BCO RPORATION_272%2BTHREADLOCKER%2B10ML%2BBO%250A | ||
| Timebandit |
Thanks for clarifying that. I would trust Harley parts if they still have it in the supply chain. Let us know if they can get it for you. That would be great news. The only other option is buying a 50cc bottle that you really don't want or need. | ||
| Milt |
I'd be interested in a crank locker, particularly if it's less expensive than the one H-D would sell me. | ||
| Bartone |
Oh wow, I just got quoted for the nut, gasket, and cranklocking tool from a local HD here in Canada... They are all double the prices of whats listed here.. Ugh | ||
| Yugi |
BTW, I checked the specs for loctite 271, and it says that the service temperature is up to 300F. I think that permatex 272000 (high temp red) would be a better choice, cuase it goes to 450F, though it says for the fasteners from 10 to 25mm, while we have 8mm there. | ||
| Timebandit |
you are right about 271. my bad. i'd definitely go with a 450*F threadlocker for bolts less than M25. Permatex does make a good product for that application. Here's a useful page that puts a lot of info in one place: http://www.mcmaster.com/#loctite-threadlockers/=h6 c17k | ||
| Squish |
Yugi, Thanks for the info on the Permatex high temp threadlocker product. One correction, you listed one too many zeros in the Permatex part number (p/n), it should be p/n 27200 for 10 ml bottle. From the Permatex website, I found the following info for the different sizes of their High Temp Threadlocker RED: Item # Container Size Pack Part # 24026 6 ml tube, carded 6 24026 27200 10 ml bottle, carded 6 27200 27240 36 ml bottle, carded 6 27240 http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/thread _compounds/a_threadlockers/auto_Permatex_High_Temp erature_Threadlocker_RED.htm | ||
| Yugi |
Yes, you can buy 6ml bottle. It's readily available in many automotive stores. But just for the record, it says on the packaging that it's best used on the sizes from 16 to 25 mm.  | ||
| Timebandit |
yes, Permatex red high temp 450*F is limited to M25 or lower. they do make a red for M25 and larger, but it's limited to 350*F. Neither one meets the rotor nut spec of 450*F and M32. here's a thread that has a lot of useful info: http://badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290431/ 665458.html | ||
| Clutchreaper |
I see a lot talk about needing to torque the crankshaft nut for the rotor to 300 ft-lbs. When I look in the service manual it only calls for 207-214 ft-lbs (280-290 Nm). A torque wrench that goes up to 250 ft-lbs. would be adequate. Correct me here if I'm misinformed. | ||
| Yugi |
It was revised. | ||
| Clutchreaper |
I stand corrected. Good to know. | ||
| Timebandit |
At the risk of appearing "pedantic" here is the official revised procedure from the 2010 manual:  Notice that the procedure to activate the threadlocker is different than it has been written in other threads on this forum. After the initial torquing, you need to back off 720 degrees, or two full revolutions, and you need to do that TWICE. There are other posts in this form that say to back off 270 degrees, which is probably just a typo that happened when someone reversed the digits as they typed. I honestly don't know how much the difference between 270 and 720 degrees really matters, but I'm thinking that if you spin 3x as far by going 720 degrees, that's going to give you better activation of the threadlocker. I know, it's pedantic. But if being pedantic helps to prevent a catastrophe, that's a good thing, right? | ||
| Yugi |
Timebandit, Can you also post the previous page of the manual? And what does it mean "apply loctite to the mating face of the nut"? I don't need to apply loctite to the threads of the crankshaft? Only to the threads of the nut? | ||
| Baf |
If I were following those directions right now, I would put it on the nut threads and the side of the nut that touches the rotor. Since it's torqued down onto the rotor, having it on the face should help lock it in place as well. | ||
| Bartone |
I think what the instructions is saying is that you put the thread locker on the crankshaft threads and the side of the nut where it touches the rotor. | ||
| Timebandit |
I think you could take the instructions either way and still be right, but looking at them literally, item "5.a." falls under the heading of crankshaft nut, so I think they mean apply it to the nut. FWIW that's not how I would advise doing it. Where to apply the 272 is an question that will sort of answer itself once you have the bike apart and take a look at things. The threaded region of the crankshaft is pretty long relative to the thickness of the bolt, so you don't want to put the 272 on the end of the crankshaft. If you did that you'd end up having it everywhere, including places on the crankshaft that have no bolt. That just creates a mess and makes the job harder when it's time to take things apart next time. So putting it on the end of the crankshaft that's close to you, or smearing it all over the threaded area on the crankshaft probably isn't what you'd want to do. OTOH, if you put it on the nut, the crankshaft threads are going to consume a lot of threadlocker, coating the entire threaded surface as you spin the nut all the way to the back. To assure that you've got enough once the nut has traversed the threaded region to get all the way to the back, you'd have to put a huge amount on the nut. You'd probably have to keep re-applying as the nut traversed the threads. I wouldn't do that either. That just creates a mess that you'd have to clean up later. I'd just put the threadlocker on the back side of the nut, and on the threads of the crankshaft towards the rear of the threaded region, where the nut was going to seat. I'd leave the first part of threaded region of the shaft, AND the threaded part of the nut, totally naked when I put the nut on. I'd put the 272 on toward the back of the shaft's threaded region, just in front of where the nut is going to seat. This lets the nut pick up the 272 as it reaches the area where it's going to work. This keeps the threadlocker where it will actually be seated between two mating sets of threads, and avoids it being on one set of threads in free air. Then I go back and forth enough that the threads have fully picked up the 272 and are fully impregnated when they reach the locking position. Then I do the three torque applications and wipe away any leftover threadlocker. You won't need to put a huge gob of 272 on the bike... just enough to provide good impregnation on the mating surface of the threads is all that you need. Using a gratuitous amount won't help you. Gobbing it on might actually make things worse. What's important to keep in mind is that you're dealing with an anaerobic threadlocker. 272 needs to be in an oxygen free environment to set-up. If it has exposure to air, it will never cure. When the bolt is tightened to the nut, air is excluded from the space where the threadlocker fits between the threads on the nut and the threads on the crankshaft. This air-free zone allows the threadlocker to cure. If you leave threadlocker exposed on the crankshaft threads where no nut is present, this area remains exposed to air, and the threadlocker will never cure. Chances are that when the shaft starts spinning at high RPM the uncured threadlocker could come off and go somewhere else. You don't want that. So avoid the temptation to gob on the threadlocker all over the shaft. You only want it on the mating surfaces of the crankshaft and nut, and you want to clean it off from everywhere else after the nut has been torqued down. Applying the right amount is good, applying too much does not make it better. The best thing to do is to look at the amount of 648 and the way it's distributed on your nut/crankshaft before you take the bike apart, and use that to guide you on how to apply the 272. HTH. | ||
| Bartone |
what do you use to clean off the old threadlocker? and is it necessary to heat up the nut prior to removing it? I believe it still has 648 on it. | ||
| Timebandit |
Cleaning: Twist nut back and forth with the breaker to clean the threads of the locktite, then use BraKleen and a wire brush to get what's left. Heat: Heat is definitely required. I guess you missed the thread where I mentioned that I heated the nut, but didn't heat enough, and then applied so much force trying to get it off that I tipped the bike! More info here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=290431&post=2171893#POST2171893 http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=290431&post=2207518#POST2207518 |
