| Author | Message | ||
     Zoolander |
I just received a return email this morning from EBR: Hello Gordon, For once, the worldwide interbadweb is correct. It is a service we will offering soon. I just need the extra time to get it organized, and on the store. The price will be $150, plus a $250 core charge which will be refunded once your donor rotor arrives to our shop. If you have any other questions I'm here to help. Thanks, (EBR) This MIGHT be good news as it is considerably cheaper than the stator kit. However, only time will tell if it is enough to keep the stator cool. I imagine a series regulator and the harness upgrade would still be needed to maximize this potential. Who knows, but I love that there are more things to try! | ||
| Timebandit |
only time will tell if it is enough to keep the stator cool. That's the real question isn't it? The answer still isn't clear as to whether you want to go with the 2008-style / low-power system, which provides guaranteed results, or the high-power system where the amount of temperature improvement for street applications remains unknown. We know that the RS-style rotor works just fine in race applications where RPM are kept high, where oil circulation is high, and where there's adequate airflow over the oil cooler. The problem is that there has not been an opportunity to collect enough data to quantify the thermal effects and long term reliability of the RS rotor/stator in street applications on an 1125 where RPM and MPH won't always be optimized for stator cooling as they are in a racing environment. The Street is a grey area in which nobody's been able to do long term 1125 testing of the RS rotor. This is exactly why I've been dogging other badwebbers to try to get me hooked up with stator temperature probes. I want to take the real world measurements to give us the accurate answer about how oil and stator temperatures change with the RS rotor. The price will be $150, plus a $250 core charge which will be refunded once your donor rotor arrives to our shop. Now that they're actually confirming availability and quoting a retail price for an exchange service, I guess it's OK to talk about it. I've been pulling my hair out while I wait for another badwebber to get me hooked up with temperature probes to take direct measurements of my 09 stator temps with the RS rotor. Unfortunately, if I can't get the temp probe situation worked out in short order, I'm just going to bail on the project and we'll never have accurate temperature data. As much as I'd like to help the community by providing accurate numbers, I'm not going to cheat myself out of riding the bike. Right now we still need to develop two data sets relative to the street application: 1) quantification of stator temperature reduction by the RS rotor, and 2) long term reliability/MTBF data for the stators with the RS-type rotor. Until we accumulate that data, there's no way to confirm that the RS rotor will be superior for street applications. Right now, all that we know is that the rotor exchange program is cheaper, and that the RS rotor can only help in terms of stator cooling. But we haven't proven yet that the RS rotor will prolong stator MTBF to the point that the 2009/10 high output charging system becomes as reliable as the 2008 low power charging system. If you want GUARANTEED RELIABILITY for a street application, the 2008-style / low power system is the right choice. It's more expensive, but it's proven. If you're willing to take a chance and participate in the RS rotor experiment, the oil-jet mods won't hurt, they can only help. But right now nobody has data to demonstrate the magnitude of stator temperature reduction and the resulting change in stator MTBF on the 2009/10 1125 bikes in street applications. So you still get to pay your money and take your chances. There are positive reasons to go with both systems. | ||
| Baf |
They should hurry up and post this. I'm interested in giving it a whirl, rather than buying the 08 setup. | ||
| Dualbuells |
Time, I pm'd you a couple days ago about the thermocouples, they are ready, I just need a address to ship them to! Check your junk mail! | ||
| Squish |
I haven't followed this topic in a while. What does RS stand for? Thanks, John K. | ||
| Timebandit |
1190RS | ||
| Squish |
Thank you. | ||
| Sekalilgai |
didn't know if it has been mentioned but I saw this just tonight.... http://www.erikbuellracing.com/store/parts-accesso ries/powertrain/2009-2010-charging-system-rotor-mo dification.html | ||
| Timebandit |
There you go. Order it now! It's the best $175 you'll ever spend on this bike. | ||
| Timebandit |
Looking at that pic, what they're showing is actually an 1190RS rotor. It's a 2010-spec rotor that's been modified to include the oiling jets. You can tell this because Rotax is now manufacturing the rotors with serial numbers inscribed on the bottom of the bowl. Your 2009 rotor won't have that.  It would be interesting to see if those who are first to jump on this upgrade/exchange get a fresh/new 1190RS rotor in exchange for their 2009 rotors. | ||
| Fio835 |
I'm proud to see EBR is trying to continue to support Buell rider's! | ||
| Squish |
+1 | ||
| Bartone |
I will be ordering the modded rotor on monday, So ill see which one i get. | ||
| Timebandit |
I'm guessing that the first 20 or so units will be new OEM 2010-spec modded rotors that are being used to "prime" the pool for the exchange service, and that once they start to take in enough customer supplied rotors, the exchange pool will become populated with used/verfied/modded 2009 rotors. Nothing official, just idle speculation on my part. It would be interesting if people could let us know how their rotor exchange works out. | ||
| Bartone |
I will keep you guys posted, but unfortunately I wont be able to give you much stats on how much more it is effectively cooling the stator. | ||
| Baf |
I just pulled the trigger on one. I was going to hold off until the locking tool was back in stock, but now that the 08 setup is OOS, I figured I better grab the rotor while they have it. | ||
| Timebandit |
i think you are wise to buy individual parts when they are available, rather than waiting to buy everything at once. those cam lockers have been selling like hotcakes -- back around the new year they had 16 of them, and by feb or march they sold out. that was before EBR started advertising the 2010 rotor exchange, which makes me think there must have been a lot of people retrofitting the 2008 charging systems. during this same time period i noticed that other rotor project associated parts had intermittently sold out, like the carbon fiber skid plate and now the cam locker. bear in mind that everyone who decides to do one of these projects will need the same supplies, and EBR is selling individual parts, not complete kits. once people decide to start buying the 2010 rotor exchange, the deluge of orders could result in intermittent shortages of some associated parts. I think it's a good idea to buy what you can when you can. you might not be lucky enough to get everything in one shot like i did. | ||
| Finedaddy1 |
Timebandit --Just got my '10 rotor from EBR this week, and it is not the one I sent. You are correct, my new rotor resembles the one that you posted up w/ the serial numbers. Can't wait to get it in! | ||
| Yugi |
They removed the 2008 kit from the site now. I'm going to buy a new rotor, when a crankshaft locking tool becomes available. | ||
| Cravacor |
Bandit, you said cam locking tool, but I presume you are referring to the crank locking tool? Is the cam tool required to R&R the rotor? | ||
| Timebandit |
"They removed the 2008 kit from the site now." Interesting. when I talked to the guys I know at EBR about the stator problems, they told me that what I wanted was one of the rotors from an 1190RS (a 2010 rotor with the pilot-hole mod), and not the 2008 charging system kit. So they set me up with an 1190RS rotor for my 2009 1125R. I t hink that the only reason they started selling the 2008-style setup was to give the customers what they wanted. Remember, before the RS-rotor became available there were a lot of people proclaiming that the 2008 setup was better, but they also complained that the price was too high from H-D P&A. EBR stepped-up to offer the parts at a better price and the kit 2008 became popular. I was wondering what would happen with all of that expensive 2008 inventory when they decided to make the RS rotor service available at a lower price. You might think that if everyone wanted the RS rotor, they might get stuck with a pile of very expensive inventory. It makes sense for them to hold off on announcing the new rotor exchange service until the other inventory sells through. It would be interesting to know if the removal from the site is temporary/out of stock, or if they're no longer going to be offering the 2008-style setup. If they only offer the RS-rotor exchange, that tells me that they think it's a better solution. That would pretty much kill the argument that the 2008-style setup is better. | ||
| Timebandit |
"Bandit, you said cam locking tool, but I presume you are referring to the crank locking tool? Is the cam tool required to R&R the rotor?" Oops. I misspoke. I guess I was subconsciously griping about the cam locking tool being out of stock when I wrote that, and as a result I said cam locker rather than crank locker. You do not need the cam locking tool to do the rotor exchange. You need the crank locking tool. sorry for the confusion. somewhere around here I have a few photos that i took when I did my rotor swap. if lots of people are going to be tackling this project then maybe i should look for them. I was thinking about writing a guide, but my digital camera died on me during the project and i never got all the photos together. | ||
| Baf |
Looking back, I should have bought the CF covers with the rotor, because I'll prolly DIY a locking tool or try and borrow one from somebody, unless I happen to catch the EBR tool in stock soon. Oh well, the rotor core charge will almost cover the cost of the CF covers. I've got Froggy's burned out 09 stator here, so I'm considering re-winding it with the high temp wire like Hildstrom did, and popping it in. Hopefully rotor, DIY stator wind, and a ce-605 will give me a bulletproof 09 charging system, without needing the harness. | ||
| Timebandit |
Hildstrom used polyimide (aka Kapton) wire, which is the industry standard when it comes to winding high temp / oil-environment stators. There's no reason to believe that the OEM stator used anything else. In that respect, I think that you have to look at the stator rewind procedure as a repair/rebuild to OEM specs, not as any sort of upgrade. If there's any life prolongation to be had, it's going to be obtained via temperature reduction; it's not going to come from the same gauge of Kapton wire. That's why temperature measurements are so important. If you're going to do a rewind following Hilde's lead, I would include the thermocouple and build the temp measuring box. It would be great to know how much heat reduction the oiling rotor provides. You might even consider foregoing the regulator swap until you can prove that it's needed; If the oiling rotor is as good as we hope, it will reduce the stator temperature until it equilibrates with the oil temperature. Once you've equilibrated with oil temperature, there are no further temperature reduction gains that can be made unless you improve oil cooling. Period. If the oiling rotor provides equilibration, then it's probable that the series regulator would offer little to no benefit for the added cost. There's no way to know the whole truth until we have temp measurements and controlled experimental results, which is why I don't agree with Hilde and Posplayr that rigorous comparisons of temperature are unnecessary. I also do not agree that the current crop of series regulators are the panacea that they're cracked up to be. That PDF tutorial that's been spread all over the internet mentions all of the upsides to series regulators, while not talking about their downsides. It was very one-sided. But then what do you expect? It was intended as a vehicle to pimp the CompuFire 55402: "Buy one from Motoman. Guaranteed lowest price." | ||
| Dannybuell |
Timebandit ~ "That PDF tutorial that's been spread all over the internet...". Who acknowledges someones work like that? Just saying.... Your pedantic critique has fueled my interest in your research. When will you be publishing? | ||
| Timebandit |
Thanks for the compliment, even though I'm sure that's not what you intended. When you tell someone with a doctorate, who teaches at the post-doctorade level and practices design engineering that they're pedantic, you're actually giving them quite a compliment. Being especially concerned with minute detail, formalism, and rigorous testing is precisely what it takes to be successful in both academia and in design engineering. In contrast, if minute detail, formalism and rigor are ignored then the probability of finding the right answer is dramatically reduced. If pedantic methods are not applied to solving a problem, then there is no guarantee of an accurate result. If someone doesn't understand the need for scientific rigor, then their only option is to trust the opinion of other people, who may or not have someone else's best interests at heart. Unfortunately, it's very easy for educated people to trick the uneducated out of their money. Pulling back the curtain and exposing the truth is a good thing. You should be applauding the effort instead of dishing out slurs. On the subject of publishing my own research, you don't have to wait! I've done quite a bit of that here already. In case you haven't noticed: I was one of the guys on this forum who blazed the trail on establishing the problems with shunt regulation burning up the stators; Nightksy and I showed everyone the math that proved that the regulators were the origin of the problem. I was the guy who reverse-engineered the operation of the the charging harness, I'm the guy who established that the charging harness works by single-phasing the stator output, I'm the guy who established that the charging harness failures were most commonly caused by malfunctioning relays, I'm the guy who established why people who have the harness and operate at low RPM have charging problems, I'm the guy who came up with the theory that explained why the rotors all burn out on the same poles, I'm the guy who had the connections to serve as the guinea pig for the EBR oiling rotor modification and tell the world about it, I'm the guy who started the stator temp measurement project with Nightsky and Dualbuells, I'm the guy who did the forensic disassembly of the OEM Ducati regulator to prove that it's a MOSFET-based design, I'm the guy who researched the patents and established that the OEM vreg is “smart” enough to vary output voltage depending on the charge state of the battery, and most recently, I'm the guy that did the threadlocker research that helped Fitz to get a brand new, free 2010 engine even though his bike was out of warranty. I could go on. Do I really need to? What contributions have you made? In several threads like this one you've attacked me with name calling, you troll for fights, and your inappropriate behavior has caused useful threads to get shut down. That kind of behavior is counterproductive. Please give it a rest. | ||
| Dannybuell |
I understand the english language, that is exactly what I intended. Witness you are asking for more detail than Hildestrom or Posplayr think necessary. I thought you were the echo chamber on those subjects. I guess it is all about you. Politeness is a virtue, try it. | ||
| Milt |
Bandit, I'm in Chicago's Northern suburbs. PM me if you'd like to ride. Sorry for the hijack. Carry on. | ||
| Reepicheep |
There is good information being shared, lets try and stick to it, and offer fewer opinions of each other (or opinions on our opinions of each others opinions of us). I hate to see another good thread die young.  | ||
| Cravacor |
What do the CF covers have to do with any of this? When I think of my Buell 1125 charging system "CF" means something entirely different than carbon fiber. |
