| Author | Message | ||
     Curve__carver |
I pulled both running lights and the license plate light. They are 5w each so 15w total. It doesn't sound like much but since I did my voltage is consistently 2 tenths higher. Voltage also stabilized at idle even with both fans running. Thoughts? | ||
| Dannybuell |
sounds like you are on to something. What are the running lights? | ||
| Timebandit |
2 tenths higher than what? Without actual numbers, this discussion is meaningless. | ||
| Curve__carver |
They are the little lights next to the low beams on the R. It took about 60 seconds to pull all 3 lights. 2 tenths higher than before. If you are looking for data to analyze, feel free to perform your own test. | ||
| Timebandit |
"If you are looking for data to analyze, feel free to perform your own test." No, I wasn't looking for data to analyze, I was just trying to be a nice guy -- I was going to try to help you understand what's happening by putting your observations in perspective so that you don't go jumping to false conclusions. Unless you're willing to help me a little bit, then I can't help you at all. Suit yourself. | ||
| Curve__carver |
Just ditching some unnecessary load...albeit a small amount. | ||
| Avc8130 |
"Unnecessary load"? I bet Ohio DOT disagrees. | ||
| Curve__carver |
I won't lose any sleep over ODOT. | ||
| Dannybuell |
I love this time of year, nobody is getting the riding time they deserve. Testosterone and edginess spilling out everywhere. You are all a bunch of adrenaline junkies needing a fix ! Don't ask me how I know.  | ||
| Avc8130 |
Yeah, something like that. 5W isn't worth getting hassled by the cops for me. | ||
| Timebandit |
I'm with Danny. I've got an itchy throttle wrist and an itchy brake finger. No, 5W isn't worth getting hassled over. Neither is 15W. The facts are that 15W gets lost in the noise floor of the amount of power that gets dissipated by the shunt regulator, which can be up to 400W or more. You can pull the 15W lights out of their sockets and what's going to happen with the current that was being used to supply them? It's still being produced by the stator, and when the lighting system load for that current disappears, the current has to go somewhere. Where does it go? The shunt regulator burns it up on-demand. Plain and simple. Why does the voltage drop? The Ducati shunt regulator is a "smart" shunt regulator. It's got circuitry inside to monitor the charge state of the battery and to adjust the voltage output accordingly so the battery doesn't boil. If the charge state of the battery is high, the regulator will drop the regulated voltage to spare the battery from strain. Seeing a couple of tenths drop could mean nothing more than you're looking at the output when the battery's state of charge is still pretty good. People who fuss over this and start pulling light bulbs have no effing clue what they're doing. | ||
| Curve__carver |
And how many watts are produced at idle? How many watts are consumed at idle with 0, 1, and 2 fans running? 15w is a small amount, but it's enough to impact the system voltage by a couple tenths. What more do you want from a free mod that is easily reversible ? (Message edited by curve__carver on February 17, 2012) | ||
| Avc8130 |
Doesn't matter how many watts are produced at idle. The stock RR will want them ALL, regardless of whether you have a license plate light. | ||
| Curve__carver |
Of course the RR wants all available AC. It's a matter of freeing up a bit of DC power. It will either leave a bit more power to keep the battery charged or at least drain the battery slower at idle. Since I pulled the lights, I have not seen the battery light at idle, which used to be a regular occurrence. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Removing the 15W has made a perceived 1.6% difference in system voltage at idle. Wonderful. Next try removing the head light bubs and the tail light circuit (NOT the brake light). Those will be a SIGNIFICANT improvement (headlights mostly) and we all know those are "unnecessary loads" during the day. (Message edited by avc8130 on February 18, 2012) | ||
| Curve__carver |
Sorry but your math is incorrect. How much power do you think is being produced at idle? | ||
| Avc8130 |
Check again. I carefully chose my words so I could be lazy about the math. SYSTEM VOLTAGE AT IDLE. You claimed .2 higher. I did: .2/12.1*100 = 1.65% increase in SYSTEM VOLTAGE at idle. Maybe you would have preferred I round to 1.7%? | ||
| Curve__carver |
Your calculation is essentially meaningless. A more useful calculation would involve amps. The 09 stator is rated at 37 amps and we know it produces much less than that at idle with the charging harness. Removing the 3 bulbs frees up about 1.1 amp. | ||
| Timebandit |
What more do you want from a free mod that is easily reversible ? First, I want safety. Taking off lights doesn't help in that regard. It hurts. Second, I want the mod to actually perform some meaningful purpose -- especially if I am trading off safety to obtain a putative gain. If I'm trading off safety, I sure as hell want a benefit for the risk I'm taking. My personal take on this is that if the mod doesn't maintain safety then it's not worth having. Pulling lamps makes you less visible. I would not want to make myself less visible on the road, or when idling at an intersection. Blindly hacking at the electrical system by disconnecting parts isn't a good approach. I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but your first post was an open invitation for "thoughts" on a public internet forum. It's true that if you removed all system loads from the bike, you could minimize the load on the DC circuit at idle, and you might be able to avoid a sagging voltage when you are maintaining the bike at a marginal output state. According to the tests I've done, my 2009/10 charging system works just fine at idle. I'm not about to rip off the signals or the headlamp or the tail lamp or the markers to facilitate charging the battery, when simply twisting the throttle is all that's needed to solve the problem. It's easier on me and the bike to just keep the RPM in the range where everything works as designed. A more useful calculation would involve amps Well, not really. Although watts and amps may not be identical in an AC system where power factor may be less than 1.0, by definition, DC has a power factor of unity. This means that when you're talking about DC power loads it doesn't matter if you are talking in amps or watts, they both scale linearly with perfect correlation because the power factor is unity. Ohm's Law: V = W / I If you really want to understand what the Ducati engineers were trying to accomplish when they designed their regulator, then you either need to take one apart and analyze the circuit, or you need to read their patents. Or both. Blindly removing lights and observing changes to the state of the system isn't an easy way to obtain the right answer, especially if the regulator changes it's behavior in response to what you're doing. | ||
| Curve__carver |
While I get your safety concern its a fairly weak point. The running lights are barely noticeable and the license plate light is just there to make your plate more readable should a LEO want to read it. Removing bulbs is not blind hacking...and honestly this is not rocket science. While I appreciate the thoughts, I've yet to hear a valid reason against. I am also considering a switch for one of the low beams as only one headlights is required in OH. | ||
| Rpm4x4 |
How about switching to LEDs? Do you already have the 2010 tailight? | ||
| Curve__carver |
I plan to get the 2010 tail light for another small gain. | ||
| Avc8130 |
I am also considering a switch for one of the low beams as only one headlights is required in OH. I'm willing to bet so is a license plate light... I hear you that it isn't THAT important from a "safety" point of view. I just hate giving the cops another reason to hassle a rider. ac | ||
| Curve__carver |
Yes the plate light is required in OH. But how many plates have you seen mounted to axles or bolted to GSXR undertails with no lighting? I guess you could get hasseled for it, but I've never heard of happening...so IMO, im not going to worry about it. | ||
| Dennis_c |
Put 194 LED in place of the bulbs you took out with 1W LED there brighter to.  | ||
| Timebandit |
"I've yet to hear a valid reason against." Sure you did. You just didn't understand it. Go read the patent. | ||
| Curve__carver |
Does the patent discuss a charging harness that leaves the system starved for power at idle? | ||
| Posplayr |
I would say that 0.2V at idle is pretty significant. The thing to remember is that the battery chemestry is pretty non linear and that the bike itself if pulling the bulk of the power from the charging system at idle. You only need a little current to charge the battery. So if you remove the 15Watts for a system that is essentially not charging but not loosing anything at idle, that is about 1.17 amps at 12.8V more avaliable current to charge. For a 12 AmpHour (YTX14L)that is approximately C/10 charging. If you refer to the graph here you are moving from the C/40 curve for small charging levels to C/10 where you are getting a full amp. Petty big difference which is reflected by Curve Carvers observations. http://www.scubaengineer.com/documents/lead_acid_b attery_charging_graphs.pdf Using the lower output 08 system with some LED light swapps might make a big difference in battery health. 15W appaears to be enough to allow the battery to charge well at idle. (Message edited by posplayr on February 18, 2012) | ||
| Timebandit |
"Does the patent discuss a charging harness that leaves the system starved for power at idle?" In addition to being an insincere wise-ass remark, that's a pretty dumb thing to say, for a couple of reasons: First, the properly functioning harness doesn't leave the stock system starved for power at idle, so if you have a charging system that is starved for power at idle, you have a system that is either overloaded or malfunctioning. Time for you to remove accessory loads, and if you don't have accessory loads, time for you to go through the official charging system diagnostics. Second, if you want to know what's in the patent, it's your job to take the time to read it and understand it. That's what I had to do. I'm not going to digest it and regurgitate it for you. I am willing to point you in the right direction, but I won't carry you to your destination. Pos, AFAIK you don't own one of these bikes, so you're lacking a little bike-specific information that would prove helpful in putting all this in perspective. Your battery data is accurate, but the premise upon which you base it is invalid. You've been goaded into believing false data. The stock charging system, when properly functioning, never falls into the low 12's. CC's complaints have to be viewed in the context of a malfunctioning charging system with an output that isn't up to spec. People need to remember that when their bike was new, it charged with 14.1 volts at idle at a stoplight with the high beams on. When the bike gets older and stops doing that, it's a sign of a wear-related problem. The natural course for an 1125 is to burn up the stator and voltage regulator with heat, especially when the bike is ridden at low RPM. There are LOTS of people who own 3-year old 1125 bikes who burn up the regulators with heat. The result is that they see 12's in the charging system output. That's abnormal. You fix the problem by replacing defective parts, not by unplugging light bulbs. A stock 2009 1125 with a good stator and a new vreg will idle at a stoplight at 14.1 V with the high beams on. People tend to forget that. I've got two bikes that I've run detailed charging system tests on, both produce the same results. DC voltage on the cluster rarely drops below 14.1V. Even at idle with the high beams on, it's typically never below 13.8 or 13.9. When these bikes are new, and have a charging system that passes diagnostics, they never fall out of the 13s. Never. People who have voltages drop into the 12's have a defective charging system. Period. Here are two of the most common problems: a) Riding their bikes in the RPM band between 2000 and 4200, in which the charging system output is intentionally single-phased by the upgrade harness/computer, instead of providing 3-phase output The result of habitually riding in the zone where the charging system has intentionally diminished output results in a battery is chronically depleted; When these people stop, their depleted battery places a high load on the charging system because it's in a chronically depleted state. This riding style also hampers cooling with inadequate airflow and oil flow. Excessive heat invariably results in shorter service life in the charging system components. b) They have malfunctioning charging systems. These people need to start thinking about how much heat a shunt regulator produces internally, how close it is to the rear cylinder, how it receives no airflow under the seat, how thermal overload de-rates electronic component life, and how a new voltage regulator might solve their problems. Of course, a lot of people would rather just cheap out, and run an old/dying regulator while they piss and moan, instead of spending the money to properly diagnose the problem or buy new charging system components. When that happens, people with charging systems that are malfunctioning to the point that the system can't charge at idle start looking for free ways to solve the problem, like pulling light bulbs. Most sportbikes aren't designed to charge a maximally depleted battery at idle. All of the bike's charging system problems could easily be avoided by riding the bike at speed. It remains a matter of fact that the bikes that get raced have none of these problems, that the street bikes that get flogged have none of these problems, and the street bikes that are operated in a way that retains heat are the ones that have problems. If you don't ride fast, you're going to burn up some parts and you're going to have to replace them. This isn't rocket science. | ||
| Curve__carver |
Ha! My system functions as designed. Which leaves alot to be desired. This was not only confirmed by my dealer, which was a pretty good dealer. It was also confirmed by the Buell (not HD) techs that flew here from WI to double check. I have NO electrical accessories. The charging system works adequately with the exception of idling with both cooling fans running. In that scenario the battery drains until the battery light illuminates. ALL charging components have been replaced multiple times. So far pulling the lights has kept the battery light off. Back to you.... |
