| Author | Message | ||
     Avc8130 |
Time, What gauge is the wire feeding the battery from the RR and what is the approximate length? ac | ||
| Timebandit |
sorry. got sidetracked by a dog with a bloody paw. depending on how someone wires their bike they could easily screw things up. here's one example: default wiring setup with the bussbar does not pass all circuits through the 30A battery fuse. looking at the stock bussbar setup, the vreg simultaneously/directly attaches to multiple parallel circuits whose fuse ratings collectively exceed 30A. the 30A limit is just_for_the_battery. if you put a 30A fuse on the vreg feed to the battery, and pass that feed backwards through the 30A battery fuse to the bussbar, and then feed all other circuits from the bussbar, you've just limited the bike's total current capacity to what passes through the battery fuse! 30A. that's a max of ~400W. guys with the 2009 45A / 600W charging system are going to be pissed when their heated gear starts popping the main fuse with only a 400W total sytem load. offhand i don't know the specs for wire gauge/length. that needs to be looked up. (Message edited by timebandit on January 10, 2012) | ||
| Yugi |
2009 has 532W, 37A according to the spec. 40A fuse will be sufficient. The voltage is around 14V. | ||
| Timebandit |
You're right -- I did make a typo regarding the current rating in that previous post. But be careful if you still plan to hook up to the battery post. Doing that will still limit system power to 400W no matter how big a fuse you put on the vreg. Why? Because you're still not routing power correctly through the wiring harness. My typo doesn't change the answer at all. Here's where I made the typo: It seems that I quoted the wrong line out of the specifications table on page 1-1 of the 2009 Electrical Diagnostics Manual: Table 1.8 lists the Alternator Specifications as 38A, not 45A as I had misquoted previously. Table 1.9 lists the Voltage Regulator specifications as 45A. It looks like I quoted the 45A current rating from Table 1.9 instead of the 38A current rating from Table 1.8. My bad. That typo still doesn't change the results. If the vreg is hooked up directly to the (+) battery terminal via a fused wire, it doesn't matter if you increase the value of that fuse to 40A or 100A; the total system current is still going to be limited to 30A by the battery fuse. Guys with the 2009 38A / 500W charging system are still going to be pissed when their heated gear starts popping the battery fuse with only a 400W total system load. | ||
| Yugi |
You can replace another fuse too. | ||
| Tbowdre |
I have been running this R/R for about 3000 miles now. It is wired directly to the battery exactly as supplied by Compufire with the inline fuse. I just left the the OEM connection to the battery taped off... in case I need and OEM regulator or something. My first install of the Compufire unit about a year ago resulted in a melt down of the regulator. I had spliced it into the OEM harness to connect it to the battery. Not sure if it was a faulty R/R, wiring with OEM connection to battery or whatever just my experience todd | ||
| Timebandit |
> You can replace another fuse too. WOW. That's a really *BAD* idea you've got there. Doing that would amount to stacking one bad idea on top of another one. The problem is that two wrongs don't make a right. Let's review some facts. The 2009 stator/rotor combination is rated at 38A. the battery circuit is rated for 30A, and other circuits are rated for either 10A or 15A. Think about it. NOT ONE fused circuit in the bike is rated to handle the full current output of the 38A charging system passing through them. NOT ONE. How did you come to the conclusion that it's OK to route power through an alternate path, forcing all of the power coming out of the charging system to flow through the 30A battery circuit? To know that it's safe to do this, you need to look at the gauge of the wires in the circuit, and the length of their run, and compare that to the load rating for the accessories to determine the proper current rating for the circuit. Then once you know the current rating for the circuit, you select the proper fuse. You've already done the math, right? To do this safely, you have to have already done the calculations to confirm that the wiring in the battery circuit is capable of handling a 40A load instead of a 30A load. Anything less amounts to just rolling the dice and hoping for the best. The engineer that designed battery circuit decided to limit it to 30A for a reason. His design doesn't allow the full output of the charging system to flow through the battery circuit. I'm willing to bet that you can't explain why he did that, and that you haven't contemplated all of those reasons when you talk about just changing his 30A fuse to a 40A fuse. What you're suggesting reminds me of the guy who has a 15A circuit breaker in his house that keeps tripping due to an overload, so he just decides to remove the 15A breaker and replace it with a 20A breaker, without bothering to check to see if the wiring in the walls of the house can handle the increased load without starting a fire. That's not a good idea. A better approach would be to just hook up the new voltage regulator to the same set of wires that the old voltage regulator used, and to avoid changing values of fuses or re-designing the bike's fusebox. That way you know that the current in the circuit is following the same path that the engineers designed to safely handle the power. That way you don't have to go rolling the dice as you blindly start changing values of the fuses that you plug into the fusebox, while you close your eyes and hope that something bad won't happen. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Time, I read what you are saying and I understand it from a fully theoretical standpoint. However, practically I don't think it makes a difference. Running the RR straight to the battery with a 40A fuse and then feeding a fuse panel with (no single fuse over 40A) a total fuse capacity of more than 40A should never be a problem. Go down to your basement and check out your main breaker: 200A (if modern/typical). Now add up your circuit breakers. If you live in a modern house you will exceed 200A pretty quick. Sure, an 09 owner might have the desire to enjoy 100% of their capacity, which you say cannot be done through the battery feed direct. This is not necessarily true. Additional circuits added to the bike (the only way to NEED the full capacity) should be straight to the battery and would therefore not rely on the 30A backfeed from the battery to the fuse block. Fuses are not chosen solely for power REQUIRED. They are chosen to allow the power needed to flow safely along a properly sized wire (hence your 15A/20A breaker point). My contention is that the factory charging wiring is woefully undersized. To flow 30A PROPERLY requires 10 Gauge wire. I have a feeling there is no 10 Gauge wire from the RR to the battery...anywhere. Try that, just a jumper, and monitor your voltage drop and heat output along the wire. There is always the option of running in parallel. Keep the factory feed to the fuse panel, and add a second, proper gauge feed direct to the battery. ac | ||
| Timebandit |
> "Running the RR straight to the battery with a 40A fuse and then feeding a fuse panel with (no single fuse over 40A) a total fuse capacity of more than 40A should never be a problem." Exactly. but that's not the situation we've been talking about in this thread. Nobody's talking about maintaining the bike's stock wiring topology and feeding the fuse panel directly from the 40A fuse. Everyone is talking about changing the bike's wiring setup by feeding the fuse panel backwards through the battery circuit, without ever realizing that inserting power into the battery circuit is NOT the same as inserting power at the buss bar. Look at the schematic for this bike. Hooking up directly to the battery terminal is not the same as hooking up to the distribution panel. As the bike is designed, the battery circuit does not carry the full charging system load. The modifications that have been proposed in this thread change the bike's wiring so that the battery circuit will carry the full charging system load. I'm surprised that everyone thinks this is OK. Look at the house wiring analogy. The service drop comes into the 200A service box and goes to a 200A mains fuse. The mains fuse delivers power to the bussbars. The bussbars are populated with distribution circuit breakers. Those might be 15A or 20A for most circuits, or perhaps 30A for a laundry circuit. What has been suggested in this thread (hooking up to the battery circuit instead of the buss bar in the distribution panel) looks like this: A homeowner takes the service drop, hooks it up to an extension cord that has a 200A breaker on it, plugs the extension cord into a wall socket, and sends the power backwards through the wiring in the walls to a 30A distribution circuit breaker. Power appears at every outlet in the house because he is using that 30A distribution breaker to supply the main bus. Power gets routed back out through the other distribution breakers to the house. The extension cord analogy is exactly what the aftermarket vreg suppliers are telling you to do in their instructions. That wouldn't be a problem on any bike that ran the entire electrical system through the battery. The problem is that our bikes aren't designed that way. The battery circuit is not rated to take the full output of the charging system. Compufire doesn't know that our bike is different, so their directions give you bad advice. Or maybe Compufire does know this, and that's the reason why they won't warrant this product for our application. | ||
| Timebandit |
> "There is always the option of running in parallel. Keep the factory feed to the fuse panel, and add a second, proper gauge feed direct to the battery." An image of the schematic popped into my head while I was out riding today. It's funny how going for a ride helps you to sort through things. The problem with a parallel setup is that you're connecting at two points that have continuity with each end of the 30A battery fuse. That's electrically equivalent to bypassing the 30A battery fuse with a solid jumper wire. Kind of like putting a penny in the fusebox. If you were to do that, you'd need to make some other changes to the battery circuit to provide fire protection. I don't understand why people want to go changing the layout of the electrical system. They must not even realize they're doing it. It's easy enough to do it the right way -- just build the proper connector to join the new vreg to the same cable that connected to the old vreg. The only reason to change things is if you're too lazy to build the proper connector, you assume that the direct hookup to the battery is electrically equivalent, and you fail to realize that it isn't. | ||
| Avc8130 |
No one wants to change the layout. The desire is to get a PROPER size wire from the RR to the battery to reduce voltage drop. I asked MANY posts back what gauge the factory wiring was from the RR all the way to the battery/fuse block. Any clue? | ||
| Timebandit |
If I knew the wire size I would have mentioned it. Sorry. Looks like one of us is going to have to take a look at the bike to answer your question. About wire sizes, battery circuits typically have a nice fat cable going from battery to starter that's capable of handling a lot of current for the crank. Then there's a wimpy little (+) wire that's not rated for much current. Back to the idea of layout modification, the point that I have failed to get across is that sending a wire directly from Vreg to Batt *IS* modifying the layout because the bike is *NOT* wired that way from the factory. This is an important point, and I guess it's not black and white to everyone who looks at the schematic. It's funny, I talked to another circuit designer about this thread this morning, and he told me, "This is exactly why modifying the electrical system voids the warranty. You need to stop trying to protect these people. All you need to do is make sure you don't buy a used bike from one of them." I think it's just time to let it go. | ||
| Zac4mac |
According to the wiring diagram in my 08 Electrical Diag. man - The hot side of the R/R goes to the bussbar and the Aux ckt. There it feeds 7 of 9 ckts. Two fused ckts are powered by the keyswitch. Problem is, you're replacing a shunt R/R with a series R/R. like series and parallel circuits A de-coupling capacitor(parallel ckt to gnd) - aka shunt R/R, and a DC blocking cap(inline with signal) - series R/R. If I understand this right, Compufire is saying to put this 40A fuse between the R/R and the positive battery post? If so seems like a good place for a series R/R. I would go with a 30A fuse tho, since that was spec'd on the battery output side and is based on the wire gauge they used. Z | ||
| 1324 |
I can see this being an issue if you're either: A. adding additional loads to the buss bar or B. using the factory aux connector to power accessories. Knowing full well what I was doing, schematic in hand, I did a very similar wiring modification to my S3 with a 35A charging system. Granted, 35A is significantly less than 45A, but that doesn't mean the 1125 is using all 45A, either. In fact, we know it isn't due to the differences and interchangeability between the 08 and 09+ system. If I were a betting man, I'd say Buell's intention on adding the extra capacity wasn't because the bike needed it to run. Rather, they were giving owners more room to add farkles. As long as you add said farkles directly to the battery, there probably won't be any issues. If there are, you'll know right quick...when that 30A fuse pops. Is it worth it to try it out? If I had an 1125 to wrench on, I would. The benefits of bypassing the stock harness points can be immense. In the case of my S3, I picked up 0.4V at idle. Less headlight dimming in traffic, brighter headlights, faster recharging. As far as I can tell...Time's theory is correct. But like Avc said...practically, does it matter? Maybe not. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Time, Do me a favor. Explain how one COULD use the full capability of the charging system in the factory produced 2009 configuration? I think we got a carry-over wiring harness and fuse buss design from the smaller 08. The bottom line, with the way the current system is setup, the user cannot use more than 30A of the charging system for accessories. This is limited by the fuse to the battery. The user cannot draw more than 30A worth of power off the battery with the charging system able to maintain its charge. This would be inline with the capabilities of the 08 charging system. If we knew what the requirement was to run the bike electronics/lights/other equipment on the buss bar it would be easy to determine the best way. If the bike needs <30A to operate (call this B), there is NO reason a supply from RR direct to battery wouldn't be the best solution. Especially if you wired it up for 45A operation. That would allow a user to safely run accessories of 45-B directly off the battery. If the bike needs >30A to run, I agree, this method would not work. Instead the 30A stock battery circuit should be replaced with a 45A. This could be done using the original RR feed on the buss bar. ac (Message edited by avc8130 on January 11, 2012) | ||
| Yugi |
The bike will run just fine without any charging system attached, just from the battery. Also, If you disconnect the battery, with charging system attached, the bike will not run at all. Try disconnecting the battery, while the bike is running. | ||
| Timebandit |
If you disconnect the battery, with charging system attached, the bike will not run at all. Try disconnecting the battery, while the bike is running. You've accurately observed what happens, but you've drawn the wrong conclusion. The bike CAN run with no battery. Just not with the Ducati regulator. The reason that the bike won't run without a battery is solely because the Ducati regulator produces no stable 12VDC output into no-load. Take a look at it on an oscilloscope and you'll see that it produces 15V spikes with no 12VDC component whatsoever. The reason the bike won't run without the battery is because the bike is computer powered, and the ECM needs a smooth/stable DC supply to operate. Unfortunately, the stock regulator doesn't supply smooth DC. It supplies choppy pulse output, and that won't power the ECM. The purpose of the battery is NOT to run the bike. It's purpose is to smooth the choppy/unstable output of the Ducati shunt regulator. If you got rid of the POS and changed to a regulator that's designed to produce stable 12VDC output, then you could run the bike just fine with no battery. I've done it. It amazes me how poorly people understand what's going on. Maybe it's not a good idea to rely on these people to modify the charging system to "improve" it. | ||
| Timebandit |
I think I've figured out why you guys are having trouble wrapping your mind around the battery post problem -- you all suffer from the belief that all of the bike's juice is supposed to run through the battery circuit. IT'S NOT. You also think that accessories that you add on are supposed to be hooked up to the battery post or the battery circuit. THEY'RE NOT. None of the bikes circuits are actively supplied by the battery when the bike is running. They're supplied by the buss bar and the other circuit fuses, and if the bike is making power, that supply comes from the charging system, not from the battery. The facts are that not much is happening at the battery when the bike is running. You get a little bit of current flowing into the battery to charge it, it acts as a low impedance load for the voltage regulator to stabilize voltage fluctuations, and that's all it does. When the bike is running the current in the battery circuit wiring is NOWHERE near 30A. It's not supposed to be. If it is, you've got a problem. The only reason that the battery circuit is rated for 30A is because you need lots of amps to crank the starter. If you're not cranking, the battery circuit shouldn' ever see anywhere near 30A. The battery circuit is not there to be the master system load. Look at the wires. They're small. The only wires that are heavy enough to qualify for the 30A rating are the heavy wires to the starter. Cranking. That's the only time that the battery circuit is supposed to be heavily loaded. The 30A rating for the battery circuit fuse is to prevent a FIRE if the starter shorts out. It's NOT there to regulate total system current or to limit output from the charging system! During regular operation the current in the battery circuit is LOW. Unfortunately, there's a pervasive misconception on this topic. Other add-on circuits aren't supposed to be hooked up through the battery circuit. They all have independent circuits and fuses. You're supposed to add things there. I hate to say it, but all of you guys have this battery shit bass ackwards, and you're holding onto your misconceptions so firmly that you aren't willing to accept the right answer when it's placed before you. This has gone on for so long that it's becoming a farce, so I'm done. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Time, Which one is it? Is the battery circuit 30A OR are the wires small? Usually can't have both. On a TYPICAL motorcycle, circuits are laid out like this: RR goes to bus bar. A CHARGING circuit goes to battery from bus bar. This is usually 14/16 gauge. A STARTING circuit is run straight from battery to a solenoid to starter. This is usually 6/8 gauge. I need to dig up my 1125 schematic, but I would assume it is typical. You are correct, NONE of the STOCK circuits are supplied by the battery (assuming the charging system can keep up!) while the bike is running. No one will ever have a voltage problem with just the stock electrical demands. The BIG change to the 1125 is that we lose 1/3 of our charging system production at certain ECM constrained conditions. This isn't that big of a deal over short periods if you heated gear/gps/car charger/cooler/HIDs/etc are all hooked up straight to the battery as the battery can handle the draw for a bit while the charging circuit TRIES to maintain. However, in your case where all accessories must be tied into the bus bar... That suddenly puts the load on the (formerly) charging circuit for the battery as the battery must supply juice to conpensate. Now the "charging" circuit is a supply circuit. Outside of the textbooks and in reality it doesn't really matter. Either configuration will most likely work just fine. The big thing is to make sure all circuits are fused properly, and if something should become the weak link (unlikely) that circuit should be upgraded rather than simply jamming a larger fuse in. Scream warranty all you want, but if warranty is the concern just leave it ALL 100% stock as "Buell" has your back. ac | ||
| Dannybuell |
Timebandit ~ I am not a mechanic, electrician, electrical engineer. I can change fuses and bulbs. Your analogy to a house and extension cord is when began to understand with the discussion. This is a difficult subject for many. Don't get frustrated, you are doing a good job. | ||
| Avc8130 |
His argument is only valid if the accessories are run off the fuse buss. Otherwise, there is no extension cord in the loop. | ||
| Timebandit |
"otherwise there is no extension cord in the loop." you fail to understand that the problem has nothing to do with the extension cord. the problem is that you're plugging the service drop into the wrong place. consider that the extension cord is made of 3-0 wire and is adequate for the job. the problem that remains is that you're still advocating plugging the service drop into a wall socket. the analogy provides a direct, part for part substitution to what you've described as a "good" hook up for the bike. service mast = voltage regulator service drop = wire from vreg (probably shouldn't have said "extension cord") 200 mains fuse = 40A vreg fuse wall socket = battery post wires in walls = starting circuit wires 30A distribution breaker = 30A battery circuit fuse bussbar = bussbar distribution breakers = circuit fuses the problem has nothing to do with the extension cord. the problem is the wiring topology sucks because you're running all the house power through a wall socket. | ||
| Avc8130 |
If the wiring is proper, it is completely legal to wire a house through a service socket...it's called a generator hookup. (Main breaker must not be able to be turned on to prevent back-feeding the grid). Carry on. | ||
| Yugi |
You probably seen starting circuit wires. They are the thickest wires in the bike. | ||
| Timebandit |
You probably seen starting circuit wires. They are the thickest wires in the bike. not all the wires. only the wires through the starter. you have avoided answering the question where i asked you about the ampacity calculations. have you done them, or are you just assuming "big wires = good enough"? not all of the wires in the starting circuit are "big". notice that little red wire coming off of the (+) post that doesn't go to the starter? which wires carry the retrograde current flow when you hook up the vreg to the (+) terminal? i think you still have some homework to do. (Main breaker must not be able to be turned on to prevent back-feeding the grid). i am familiar with the NEC requirements for generators. dedicated generators are supposed to be installed with automatic isolation boxes, and not plugged into wall sockets. but that's not what we're talking about in this thread. the problem is that the proposed hookup to the battery terminal provides a backfeed through the starter circuit. I'd like to thank those guys who have given me words of encouragement to continue the discussion, either in the thread of via PMs. This is going to be my last post on the subject. It's not academic. It's entirely practical. Unfortunately, we've reached the point where I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with smart guys who I know are DEAD WRONG on this subject. This is turning into one of those "don't argue with a ******* on the internet" situations, and I'm going to cap my losses right here and now. What you should do is to hook-up the 40A regulator supply to the same place that Buell uses to hook it up. Nowhere else. That's the Buss Bar, not the battery post. Don't modify the circuit, and don't make the mistake of assuming that hooking up to the battery post is not modifying the circuit. It is. People who have decided it's OK to put the 40A vreg output on the battery circuit do this because their understanding of the circuit design is very basic. Battery = Power. All power goes to battery. That conceptualization is dead wrong. It's based upon the mistaken assumption that the battery circuit is the master power center for the bike. It isn't. It only serves that role in a limited duty cycle when the charging system isn't functioning, and it won't last in that role for very long. It's only designed to work "backwards" just long enough to get the bike running. Change that duty cycle to 100% and you're abusing the system. It WILL fail, not immediately, but eventually. The fun part of being a circuit designer is that I know that it won't fail in a puff of smoke as soon as you hook at up. Too bad, as if that happened you'd get immediate feedback that what you did was really stupid. What will actually happen is that you'll have a delayed onset failure. The failure will occur at a point far enough in the future, and so distant from the wire-up event that you won't recognize the cause and effect. The mistake and the resulting failure are far enough apart in time that most smart guys can't put them together. So the underlying reason for the delayed failure escapes most people's comprehension. Here's an important question that you should ask yourself: When deciding where to put that 40A charging system output, why doesn't someone do the safe thing, and just hook it up to the same place that Buell used for the hookup? Why does anyone decide to hook it up somewhere else? Just because it's easier to bolt a wire to the battery than to modify the existing connectors to fit each other? If you've decided to hook the regulator output up somewhere else, why do you choose the battery circuit instead of the headlight circuit? Think about that. Why not just put the 40A voltage regulator hookup on the (+) terminal for the headlights, and run the power backward through the headlight circuit, just like you're suggesting to do with the battery circuit? To make sure it works, all you have to do is to do what Yugi suggested, and increase the fuse rating to 40A. Using the lighting circuit makes every bit as much sense as using the battery circuit. But nobody chooses the lighting circuit. Why? Why does everyone think that the battery circuit is the right place to go? The reason everyone looks to the battery circuit is because of a superficial understanding of the circuit topology. They think that Battery = Power. They like a big fuse, it looks safe, and they erroneously look at the battery as the power source for the bike. It isn't. It's just another fused accessory circuit. In this case, the fused accessory is the STARTER. Maybe it would be easier to grasp the situation if we all stopped thinking of the battery circuit as a power source, and started thinking of the "battery circuit" as the "starter circuit." The primary purpose of this circuit is to crank the starter, not to operate as the bike's DC supply center. The starter needs lots of amps during startup, and that's why the circuit is rated for 30A. It doesn't see 30A while the bike is running. Every circuit on the bike has a fuse on it that's big enough to allow the accessory to do it's job, but small enough to fail open (aka: "pop") to prevent a fire if the accessory should fail in a short-circuit. The headlight circuit has a fuse that's big enough to power the load of the headlights, but small enough to blow if the headlights should short out. The reason that the fuse is there is to prevent excessive current in the short-circuit condition from overheating wires, melting them, and starting a fire. It serves no other purpose. Similarly, the starter circuit has a fuse that's big enough to run the starter, but small enough to blow if the starter should fail short, start melting wires, and create a fire hazard. Increasing the size of the fuse in the starter circuit to 40A is really, really, really effing stupid. Doing that only delays the fuse-pop when a the starter has failed and the short-circuit is initiating the process of incinerating your bike. When that happens, you want the fuse to pop ASAFP. Early, not late. At this point, I've said that all that there is to say on the subject, so I'm going offer one final comment. What I've written constitutes my advice on the subject. You don't have to believe me, you don't have to trust me, you don't have to think that I am right. It won't hurt my feelings if you think I'm wrong. I advise against direct hook-up of the vreg to the battery in an 1125R. I advise hooking it up to the bussbar, which is the same place that Buell chose to hook it up. That's my advice. Feel free to take it or leave it. You won't hurt my feelings if you think I'm wrong, but you might hurt your bike. Be careful out there, and good luck with your upgrade. (Message edited by timebandit on January 12, 2012) | ||
| Yugi |
So what is contact for the manufacturer of another connector on vreg? I can try to buy them, and make another cable. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Time, I hear you...and believe it or not, I AGREE with you. Hooking up to the buss bar is an IDEAL situation. However, I would like to know what GAUGE the wire from the buss bar to the RR is in the factory harness. Hopefully that wire is sized properly to carry 40A with MINIMAL VOLTAGE DROP. If it is, it should be ~8 Gauge. If it isn't...an upgrade to the wiring harness there would be benficial. The only other qualm I have is where can a user hook up accessories in the buss bar and could there ever be an event where the accessories would need more than 30A from the battery (in other words, how much juice is "missing" when 1/3 of the stator is shut off?)? ac (Message edited by avc8130 on January 12, 2012) | ||
| Timebandit |
"Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in." -- Michael Corleone If you guys pull me back into this thread, I'll participate with the limitation that I'm not going to rehash anything that I've said previously. I don't want to sound like a broken record. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Time, I'm cool with that. I don't care to discuss the merits of battery vs buss bar hookup. I'd rather discuss the OPTIMAL setup from stator to RR to buss bar with the intent of prolonging stator life, optimizing stator output and limiting voltage drop. BTW: I have a backup portable generator hookup through a wall socket :-) ac | ||
| Timebandit |
as long as you know what you're doing with that generator hookup, it's not a problem. just don't exceed your wire/fuse ratings and don't backfeed the grid. you don't want to kill the lineman who climbs up the pole outside of your house, thinking that he's working on a dead line. |
