| Author |
Message |
    
Avc8130
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 10:55 am: | 
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Danny,
I would suggest you make the "time come" a bit quicker. Running around without a harness between 2k and 4500rpm is just asking for a $1k stator repair bill.
ac |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 12:09 pm: |
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Avc8130 ~ I agree. Using a Barker exhaust I am forced to use the ebr ecm. When the harness was hooked up I consistently got red battery lights in traffic, the bike ran like it was at death's door with lousy restarts. When I took the harness out of the loop; no more battery lights, the thing explodes at startup and the throttle seems much more excitable. I have had only one 'system voltage' error in the last year. This error was not the typical deaths door silence of the harness setup, the bike kept cranking and started a moment later. If I understand Timebandits 'dead zone' graph, it suggests that the bike's electricals are running a deficit within this RPM range. While the quantity of the deficit as well the exact rpm range is undetermined the idea and my experience suggests that it runs like crap under those single phase conditions. My original assessment at the time I unhooked the harness was quality of service was more important over quantity of service. Perhaps I should replace the relay and try again. THX |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 12:28 pm: |
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Danny,
Careful with the race ECM and the harness. Some reputable sources have found that certain race ecms did not have the programming to run the harness upgrade.
ac |
Yugi
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 01:04 pm: |
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quote:Yugi I'm waiting for answer of my friend, so I cannot assure if I want 1 or 2...
And are you aware that I'm from Spain? I say due to inexpensive shipment costs.
Hi to Spain, the shipping will not exceed $10, I beleive. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 02:45 pm: |
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Avc8130 ~ I had an early ecm for a barker and when all of the stator stuff was going on I sold it and 6 months later decided to try the harness idea and bought another. The early and later ebr ecms for the barker have behaved the same. |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 02:59 pm: |
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Danny,
Have you checked the pin 21 function?
ac |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 03:09 pm: |
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...I am forced to use the ebr ecm. When the harness was hooked up I consistently got red battery lights in traffic, the bike ran like it was at death's door with lousy restarts. When I took the harness out of the loop; no more battery lights, the thing explodes at startup and the throttle seems much more excitable.
WHOA! I detect a major problem here. People are making ECM decisions based on fueling/exhausts, without any consideration of what happens to the bike's electrical system.
I don't understand why anyone would consider combining the H-D Program 0507 update with a non-H-D ECM. Doing that makes NO SENSE.
The Program 0507 installation instructions in the TSB CLEARLY specify the ECM software revision that is required in order for the harness to function. If you're not using THAT software, then you have NO REASON to assume that the harness update will function as intended.
It's faulty logic to blame that problem on the H-D wiring harness update. The update requires two criteria, both of which have to be met, to function properly:
A. Harness properly installed
B. Software logic in the ECM to properly control the harness relay.
The real question that you need to have answered is whether or not the EBR ECM properly sets the flag that controls the relay to a High or Low state, or whether awareness of the flag is even coded in the EBR race-application software. I can't see any reason to assume that the logic is in the EBR ECM, as it's intended for RACE APPLICATIONS ONLY. The 0507 harness upgrade is designed to fix charging systems on street bikes that have lights and other accessories that race bikes don't have.
The last thing that you'd want would be to install an ECM that is agnostic of the status of the relay. It's possible that software that's not designed for the harness update could set the harness to the wrong state, and force you into single-phasing over the entire RPM range.
It's important to bear in mind that the software logic that controls the 0507 harness is the intellectual property of H-D, not EBR. Don't assume that EBR licenses this technology, or that their ECM sofware controls the relay properly until you confirm it with EBR. EBR's Race ECMs were not primarily designed for the street application, and you're making some major ASSumptions when you start swapping ECMs. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 03:21 pm: |
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If I understand Timebandits 'dead zone' graph, it suggests that the bike's electricals are running a deficit within this RPM range.
Deficit?!? That depends entirely on the load that you elect to place on the charging system. There's no way that a street bike, with accessory loads and a lighting system, will be charging the battery in the dead zone. But a race bike? The electrical demands for a race bike are FAR lower. I can't tell you the exact current requirements for the race configuration, but I can calculate how much extra current the lighting system draws. I'd be willing to bet that 10A in the single-phased state is more than adequate to power the CPU and fire the fuel injectors for a race bike. Add some major loads, like lights, and that may not be the case, and you'll feel the performance deficit when you try to use a RACE product on a STREET application.
I think you're having problems because you're trying to put race parts on street bikes without fully understanding the limitations that go with them. There's a common misconception that because a part says "RACE APPLICATIONS ONLY" it will make a street bike go faster. Sometimes what it really means is that it's capabilities are limited to the limited demands of racing, and that it's not suitable for the street. |
Dktechguy112
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 04:57 pm: |
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Time bandit,
The early EBR ECMs did not work with the charging harness, the newer EBR ECM's DO work with the charging harness.
If your EBR ECM does not work with the charging harness, you can send it back to EBR and they will reflash it, I believe it costs $30. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 05:35 pm: |
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I counted them out and they appeared to be in their correct positions. |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 05:53 pm: |
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Danny,
Huh?
LOL
ac |
Dktechguy112
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 09:21 pm: |
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All the EBR ecms flashed for aftermarket exhausts will work with the charging harness.
The original EBR ecms were not designated for aftermarkets exausts, but the new EBR ECMs tuned for the stock exhaust will work with the charging harness. |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 09:26 pm: |
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DK,
Good info. Any idea if there are any distinguishing characteristics so someone could determine what version they have?
ac |
Dktechguy112
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 11:56 pm: |
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If you have an EBR ECM tuned for the stock exhaust that is older then 1 year, and you ar worried it is not working with the charging harness, I would email EBR.
If you have an EBR ECM for an after market exhaust, no worries. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 12:06 am: |
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It's really simple. Harley TSB B-099 describes the Product Program 0507 upgrade to the charging system. It's publication date is Feb 05, 2010.
* If your ECM is older than the product update release date, then it can't be compliant with the software update and you need an upgrade.
* If your ECM is recent, it could be compatible. You have to check with your provider to ask when their software became compatible with the update.
If I had a non-HD ECM then I'd be making a phone call. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 12:31 am: |
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Timebandit, the charging harness programming was available for in November 2009, long before the TSB came out. The TSB makes you verify you have the latest ECM flash, and to update it if it isn't.
I bought my Race ECMs in May 2010, they have the programming for it, I don't know for sure when they added the programming, but it was fairly early so not many were shipped without it. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 01:31 am: |
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That's interesting Froggy. thanks for clarifying that.
I'm looking at TSB B-099 right now. It's the instruction manual for installing the charging harness upgrade, dated 02-15-10.
This is where it gets interesting:
My 2009 R has a headstamp date of Jun09 but it wasn't actually released from factory inventory until the last week of Nov09 -- it was in the FINAL shipment of 1125R that were released by the factory. It was released at the end of the same month that you're telling me that the charging harness programming became available.
If your Nov09 date is correct, then that tells us that the factory didn't bother to update bikes that they were still holding in inventory. They just kicked the can down the road to be dealt with under warranty.
I know for a fact that my bike didn't leave factory inventory and get shipped to the dealer until the last week of Nov09. (records.) Even though it was still at the factory when you tell me that the programming update was already available, the update wasn't applied to my bike while my bike was still in the custody/control of the factory.
The update wasn't even available to my prepping dealer at the time that my bike was shipped to them, prepped, and readied for my pickup in the final week of Nov09. I received the warranty notice in the mail just after the product campaign started on Feb 15, 2010.
Nov 15, 2009 is 90 days away from Feb 15, 2010, so in the big scheme of things, I don't think the difference in the dates is material. Bikes that shipped from the factory in late Nov 2009 didn't have the updates that you say were already available.
There was a lot of chaos at Buell in November 09 that could explain why bikes in inventory didn't get updates that were allegedly already available. In the big scheme of things, 90 days isn't very long. I still think that looking at the date on the TSB is helpful. If anything, it's safer to use the later date, as that prevents anyone from making a decision based on the wrong date.
(Message edited by timebandit on January 16, 2012) |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 08:54 am: |
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Time,
Let's think logistics. The last step at the factory is crating. I would venture to say your June bike was crated immediately after it was finished production. Then it probably sat, in a crate, on a shelf until November.
Why would the "factory" want to rip apart the crates to install an OPTIONAL update, just to have to re-crate the bikes? Let the customer see it as "continual improvement" and give the dealer the opportunity to sell a service with the install down the road...long after the bike was un-crated.
Bikes are produced on an assembly line, the line works great...in one direction. Often times it is very difficult to get the line to pause or turn backwards.
ac |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 11:10 am: |
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Avc8130 ~ when the dealer uncrates the bike they usually do every thing they can to bring it current with 'issues'. In a slow economy a service department can stay busy doing factory financed updates. |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 06:38 pm: |
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Yeah...a GOOD dealer...now I am pretty sure back in the day we could count those on 1 hand for Buell.
ac |
Pwillikers
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 05:40 pm: |
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I wrote to EBR and asked if their ECMs contain the "harness upgrade logic". Their response was unequivocal:
"Our 1125 race ECM’s have always shipped with the harness relay strategy in them." |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 05:55 pm: |
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Interesting. Maybe AVC and DKtech were both given bad information. If that's the case than I based my earlier post on bad information too.
If you're someone who plays musical chairs with multiple ECMs, then it makes sense to double check to confirm that all of your ECMs support the harness update. If you had an incompatible ECM in your collection that could be really, really bad.
Thanks for checking and correcting the bad info.
(Message edited by timebandit on January 17, 2012) |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 07:52 pm: |
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My information came from a well-respected source in Buell tuning...but I'm not one to take on the golden goose. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 08:12 pm: |
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I could swear that my info also came from an infallible source -- But if there's a possibility that anybody is wrong on this, I would trust what EBR tells you when you call them and put the blame on me. If my info conflicts with what they're saying, I'll just assume that my memory has to be wrong. |
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