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Timebandit
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 01:12 pm: | 
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from padheaters.com: "Raises oil temp 100*F in less than 2 hours."
That's great if you want to wait while you warm a cold block, but at that rate of heat insertion I wouldn't want to leave it plugged in for very long. Too much heat could be bad.
Sounds like the best thing to do would be to put the heater on a timer so that it comes on about an hour before you want to start. |
S21125r
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 02:20 pm: |
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My old S2 was a really cold blooded beast - it had timing changes to deal with the turbo which probably didn't help matters. First 30 seconds of cranking would do nothing, the next 30-60 seconds would do that partial fire like that. In the end my magic mojo was to pumped the crap out of the throttle while cranking to get the accelerator pump to dump more fuel. It would still live on the accelerator pump for the first 10-15 seconds before it would settle into an idle. Perhaps you can find a spare vacuum port on the intake manifold to attach a long hose to. Shoot some ether down it and cap it before start up. Probably not a good long term solution, but something you can rig up for the few months below freezing. |
Bob_thompson
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 02:30 pm: |
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As I was told personally by Michael Tjon, we always run our engines for a while just before a race and let them "heat sink" for a while.
Good enough for me to do the same during the winter cold weather, below about 40 degrees but what I do is put a small electric space heater right to the side of the engine blowing right on it and the coolant radiator for about an hour. I always plan my winter rides well in advance so the time spent is not an issue.
I use a small Coleman 1500-800 watt on the lower setting and it starts instantly. This too warms and thins the oil slightly so pressure comes up quickly. Then I'm really careful to take it easy on the cold tires for a while also.
Always good to get in some seat time during the winter doldrums. Stay safe all. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 02:35 pm: |
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Carburetors and accelerator pumps and enricheners... too simple, too easy to deal with. EFI, not so much. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 03:17 pm: |
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quote:the earlier description made it sound like you had cranking problems.
Thats why I had to make the video, I was trying to convey that I know it is cranking fine, but the replies were still focusing on a weak battery.
quote:it's compression, spark, or fuel delivery.
you've got a custom fuel map, right?
Yep it has compression, spark, and fuel, it just seems like the starter is giving up too early and disengaging before the motor has a fair chance to start.
The bike is running an unmodified EBR Race ECM, which has always done better in the cold than the stock. In fact, this is my 3rd winter on this bike, and I have never had this happen before.
quote:I agree with your observation concerning the starter disengaging prematurely. Do you have the bike in neutral AND the clutch pulled in fully? If not, give that a try; if so, try other combinations.
Normally I just leave it in neutral and press the button, this morning I tried neutral and squeezing the clutch, no change, it still bitched and made the occasional single pop, but it took about a minute before it started started.
quote:Do you have a Cali can on that bike?
Not yet.
quote:Your ECM map...has the cold start mapping been altered?
I haven't altered it from what Erik and the gang put on it, it is one of their earlier race ECMs, but it started fine last winter running the exact same configuration.
quote:i know your not suppose to... but when its cold i give it just the littlest bit of throttle. then when it pops it fires instead of sputtering out.
I tried that as it was suggested a few times, no change.
quote:from padheaters.com: "Raises oil temp 100*F in less than 2 hours."
Something like that would work fine for me, plug it in an hour or two before I leave work. I've done similar before with a battery charger back when I was dealing with the failing stators.
quote:Carburetors and accelerator pumps and enricheners... too simple, too easy to deal with. EFI, not so much.
If it had carburetors and enricheners, I would be at a total loss and would have to pay to have my bike towed to a shop to fix. Being that it is EFI, if it is an EFI issue, I can fix it in 5 minutes using my phone. I do not believe it is fuel related though, but perhaps there is another parameter to override the starter and force it to crank a little more without disengaging the clutch. But the real solution is to figure out why it is giving up so fast.
quote:Tire warmer won't work well. It will burn up unless stretched (such as on a tire) and wants to cook around 200F.
Dang. That would of been too easy. 
quote:Again, pretty spendy. A light bulb under your bike cover might make more sense.
Whats a bike cover?
quote:You're something special riding in such cold temperatures.
My momma always said I was special!
quote:e) move to a warmer climate
Thats not going to happen. New York is two hot 9 months out of the year anyway. December through Feb is the only time of the year I can go outside without hearing my skin sizzle like bacon.
quote:One possible option (if this is actually the case) would be to add a fuel injector disconnect switch
This is what I am thinking will have to do, that way the starter can get the pistons moving, then flip the switch to allow the fuel to flow. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 08:10 pm: |
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i hate carbs. i've got classic cars and bikes with carbs and newer ones with EFI, and the carbs are always a freaking asspain, always needing rebuilds like clockwork. EFI is lots more reliable. if the old classics weren't worth more money in their native state, I'd have converted them all to EFI years ago.
Froggy, part of the problem in figuring out your starting problem is that the primary problem hasn't been identified, but it's been persistent long enough for you to have potentially developed secondary problems.
prolonged cranking efforts will waste starters. solenoids go bad, internal contacts arc-up with carbon, internal contacts wear down from excessive mechanical contact to the point that the contacts fail to make good contact and the contacts fail. there are all sorts of reasons that you could have starter failure, even though the starter may not be the root of your problems. but it's becoming a factor now. that clouds the issue.
it sounds like you've been abusing the starter a lot with this cold weather starting problem. the rated duty cycle for a starter may be 10 crank seconds every 5 minutes. i'm sure that you've exceeded that. so now you've got good reasons to look at starter wear, even if the starter wasn't your primary problem.
i've seen people waste starters for all sorts of reasons, from battery issues to fuel issues. (myself included, more than once.) the good news is that starters are pretty easy to rebuild. almost any good auto-electric shop will have the rebuild parts that you need that the H-D counter won't even offer. the other thing that you've got going for you is that you've got multiple bikes to use for analysis. you've got everything that you need to take things apart and do A/B comparisons. |
Satori
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 01:58 am: |
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Froggy,
Doing the fuel cuttout is just putting a bandaid on it. So lets find the real problem. As you stated, it worked fine last winter, so something has changed. Lets look at a few things.
An engine that's hard to start when it is cold is caused by the engine either producing a weak spark or not providing enough fuel to the cylinders. A weak battery will produce a weak spark at the plugs, and will turn the engine over slowly.
It doesnt seem by your video, that the battery is the problem.
Weak spark could be caused by bad plug wires, plugs, or even a weak coil. This results in a engine turning over excessivly before catching.
Also, a
clogged fuel filter, leaking fuel regulator, dirty fuel injectors or weak fuel pump can result in too little fuel reaching the cylinder, causing poor fuel ignition and the need open up the throttle to get it started.
The starter seeming to cut out early might be caused by heavy use, I would check the relay first, then go from there on that.
Hope some of this helps! |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 09:22 am: |
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The problem Froggy has is not the starter the bike is firing and over running the starter Bendix ( look that one up Froggy )
Check the fuel pressure before starting does the pump pressurize the fuel rail when you turn the key on and does it run after shutdown ? Low fuel pressure and cold temps bad combo for Fuel vaporization in a cold intake. Are you running real gas or E 85 ? its harder to light off alky In cold weather you may be pushing the water in the alky gas from the bottom of the tank through the rail first These bikes heat and cool the fuel tank ( frame ) and you probably have water in the bottom of the tank. Put a drain valve in place of the plug in the pump housing. LOL Read up on Carbed and Inpulse mag engines Lycomings Continentals you will learn about "Sumping " fuel systems On fuel injected engines the fuel system mixes the fuel and water mix continuously so you dont usually get a Slug of water in a fuel line like a carbed engine But in cold weather it may be separating due to differences in specifif gravity.
DRAIN the fuel tank dont just add HEET or alky to get the water out look at what your getting out of the tank. Good luck |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 09:25 am: |
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Froggy - my Jeep does the same thing. I've found a "workaround" until I get a chance to really troubleshoot it. Instead of just turning the key to "start"...I turn it to "run", and let the fuel pump cycle. Then I do it again. Then, I start it, and my extended crank is solved.
Your fuel rail may be leaking/draining back to the tank as the bike sits. Maybe add a fuel rail pressure gauge to all your monitors? 
Another thing to consider could be the coil. They're designed to operate when hot - it could be getting weak when it's dead-cold... |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 10:21 am: |
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What Satori says makes a lot of sense. Okay last year, but now troublesome. I don't think you are putting your starter at risk. If it was cranking for long continuous intervals then maybe. Still, finding the root cause is an excellent suggestion. The plug wires and plugs themselves are an easy first step. Did you try the spark plug auto-cleaning routine. I can't recall the procedure to instigate it, but I figure you do. 
EFI may be more reliable, debatable on motorcycles, but diagnosing problems can be a total nightmare. That's the huge advantage of a simple carburetor. However, I will say that if there is more than one carburetor, I'd definitely agree, give me EFI every time.
Your momma was right.
What, are you part Inuit or something? |
Syonyk
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 01:53 pm: |
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An engine that's hard to start when it is cold is caused by the engine either producing a weak spark or not providing enough fuel to the cylinders.
Or too much fuel...
Most EFI systems I've dealt with have a "starting pulse" of fuel. When you start the engine, there's no airflow data, no RPM data, nothing. At least not initially. To get a quick start without the user having to crank and crank for a few seconds, most EFI systems will inject a measured pulse of fuel when the starter is first engaged.
This amount of fuel is typically dependent on a mix of air temperature and engine temperature, and is usually "close enough" to start the engine & allow the normal fueling maps to take over.
If you've got a situation where repeated start attempts have been made with an EFI system, it's entirely possible that it's injected this pulse multiple times, and the mixture is too rich.
For you carb guys, it's like hitting the gas a few times to use the accelerator pump to get the motor started. If you do this *every time* you crank, and the motor has to be cranked a few times before it will light, you can easily flood the motor. Same thing with EFI.
The water in the fuel is an interesting possibility, though - I know I run pure E10 around here because I can't find real gasoline within a 70 mile radius. I've got a bunch of HEET from when I lived in Iowa... might be worth a shot when it gets really cold. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 04:57 pm: |
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I'll dig into the bike tomorrow and see if I can figure it out. Last night, it was around 45° out, it cranked and fired on the first attempt.
I didn't ride today, it is too hot out again, and I went with some friend to the city for a pony convention. 60 freaking degrees in NY in January, fraking global warming. If it gets cold enough, I'll try again tonight as I did the plug cleaning procedure.
Regarding fuel pressure, I doubt that is the issue, the bike yells at me if I even try and start it when it is low on gas, coming up with fuel pressure errors. In diagnostic mode, it is sitting at 510 KPA, which is 30 or so KPA than my 1125R did when I last checked that. The turn the key on and off a few times wont do it, if you look in the video above, you will see the dash is lit before I even start, I use the PIN system, so I turn the key to park, enter pin, then turn off and finally to on. It does prime up again a second time, but the pump noise is barley audible as it was still 99% primed in the 30 seconds or so it took for me to enter my code.
I'm going to look into the spark plugs and relays, the bike is at 17,000 miles, I don't recall if they were changed at the 12,400 service or not. I don't have any spares, so I will pick up some and give that a try. I will also clean out my IAC valve, mine has always been on a higher number of steps than normal, but it has never caused an issue in the past so I left it as is.
Ken, every tank that the bike has ever had is E10, I haven't found anywhere local with E85 to try, and E0 has been illegal here since as long as I've been driving. (Used to have to go to Jersey to get it, they eventually switched too)
I personally doubt it is water, in the winter I keep the bike on the full side, and I always use 93 from good stations. I'll do the drain, but as a last resort. Knowing my luck my Blast will smell the fumes and decide to start.
Blake, I might be part Norse. 
Thank you for the ideas guys! |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 06:29 pm: |
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Did you every try jumping it with an add-on battery when it's cold and finicky? |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 08:41 pm: |
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Frank
Possibly your fuel pump is dying.
Go into Diag Mode and check rail pressure.
It should hold 500-517 kPa at key on-motor off.
Click the kill switch if it starts dropping, sometimes the 1125s just .. nod off.
Running it should be between 380 - 415 kPa.
In my experience, the static pressure fails before the dynamic - starting gets hard before running gets impossible - a good thing.
Loretta's pump is dying and I just scored a replacement...
Z |
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