| Author | Message | ||
     Nattyx1 |
The battery in my CR ...stock at 2 years old and 7k miles....died while we were away on vacation. It was mostly working fine, the day before we left. Meaning the bike started when I pushed the button and voltages seemed to be within spec according to dash readout. Then to be 'safe', I put it on a battery tender for 10 days. When I got home, it showed voltage but wouldn't crank the bike over. No amperage. It took a charge, but wouldn't hold up under load. I installed a new Shorai lithium batt (sourced from racer Shawn Higbee). Wow. Bike fires up before the second engine revolution with a near explosive bark every time - this is a good thing. The batt doesn't "care" that it has to boil up the HID ballast at the same time as feeding the starter armature. And it weighs what feels like 1/10th of the stock brick and bike now idles right at 14.2 (instead of wavering berween 13.8 and 14.2 as it did before). The charging voltage during operation with various components on or off (beams , GERBING jacket on/off, radar detector on/off, blinkers, brake light, etc) is in a far smaller range than ever before, as best I can recall. Never below 13.8, never above 14.2. Is it possible the system doesn't have to work as "hard" with the lithium batt as compared with lead acid? I'm no chemist so this admittedly may be a dumb question. Another factor... And this may be unrelated and it may be absolutely related, is engine temp. It was near 80degrees here yesterday afternoon (not kidding... Blue sky, drunks indoors watching football, roads nearly empty... I felt like a deity in the canyons ha ha). I rode pretty hard, revs up full on sport mode. Normally temps hover in the 185-200 degree area, depending on ambient etc. I never saw more than 180 yesterday. This was also true for some in town riding... Zooming between the stop lights, then sitting and idling between the cars. The bike ran cooler and just seemed "happier" in every gear.... Most notably it was missing that balky hiccup you get off idle when you start from a dead stop in first gear when the engine is hot, idling and the fans are on. It's possible it was on its best behavior because it was happy I was back and was happy to be out running in the sunshine with me. I know this to be true of my dogs, for example. But maybe...just maybe... That electric frying pan aka stator isn't doing what it was doing before? Maybe ... Just maybe... The way this particular battery affects the other components in the system-- harness/stator/vr/relay etc--do their jobs properly? I guess my bottom line point here... If there is one... Is that I may have accidentally stumbled on something more significant than, "new batteries work better than old batteries." If I can talk a friend at a local dealership into testing this with me, I am gonna get a new-ish stock batt and do measurements at start, idle, and a few rev ranges with a hot motor on the same bike back to back with the Shorai battery. If the charging and engine temp numbers are as different as they seemed anecdotally to me... Then this could be significant, right? PS. I am currently on stator #3 | ||
| Timebandit |
> "It's possible it was on its best behavior because it was happy I was back and was happy to be out running in the sunshine with me. I know this to be true of my dogs, for example." I think it's a just new battery -- and the fact that your bike was happy to see you.  You're still running a shunt regulator, right? If that's the case your stator is going to be seeing a full load at all times. It's going to be oblivious to what's going on at the other side of the regulator. OTOH, if your battery was failing load tests, then it's DC output would be unreliable and I'd expect the bike to run poorly. It wouldn't surprise me that your bike runs better with the new battery than with an old one that wouldn't pass a load test. As far as the electronics go, they need a constant voltage DC power supply. Your old battery wasn't providing that, but the new one is. No surprise that the bike runs better. BTW, the HID ballasts suck a lot of current at startup. If adding HID ballasts causes starting problems/extra cranks before firing, one solution would be to delay their turn-on until after the bike has been started. You could use a time-delay relay on the lights to do this. | ||
| Nattyx1 |
TB: Thanks for the thoughts. I have definitely been thinking about how to delay the HID ballast (I have the low beam only). What do you suggest for this? Or should I simply install a headlight switch and not put the light on at all until the engine has been warmed and I am under way (like they have in Europe etc)? | ||
| Tbowdre |
my low beam HIDs are on a switch.... mostly for when my stator fails I can just turn the lights off easily. But its also nice on start up. | ||
| Dannybuell |
...drunks indoors watching football, roads nearly empty.... same thing on Oregon's rural roads yesterday except temps in the low 50's. The roads were a little slimy in shaded areas. The electrical's always seem better when you have a new battery. Be sure and read Shorai's FAQs. http://www.shoraipower.com/t-faq.aspx It is important that you use the correct battery tender. the newer de-sulphating tenders are WRONG. | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
The low beams auto cut when the bike is cranking. Just let the beams warm up for 20 seconds before you crank to keep them from going on then off immediately. | ||
| Timebandit |
A headlamp on/off switch would work. So would a Time Delay Relay that counts to 10 (or some other number) before it energizes the lighting circuit. That would give you time to get the engine running before firing up the HID ballasts. I haven't checked, but I think that the US DOT regs might require that the headlamp comes on automatically when the bike is started. If that's the case, then a TDR would be OK but a switch might technically be the wrong way to do it. This topic reminds me of the problem with the early BMW oilhead boxers. their ABS units sometimes failed to properly initialize on start-up. The ABS initialization took place at the same time as the crank to start the engine. If the crank drew the battery volts down far enough, the ABS would fail to initialize because of a low voltage error. There were a few solutions to the problem: a) keep the bike on a tender and hope for good volts on startup; b) perform a rolling restart; or c) delay initialization of the ABS unit until after the engine had been started and voltages were back up to normal. Some BMW guys fixed the problem using method C -- by putting the ABS unit on a TDR, so the initialization would take place after the bike had already been started and volts were back to normal. Yours is sort of a similar situation, but instead of delaying the ABS initialization until after the drain event (crank) to avoid an ABS fault, you'd be delaying the drain event (lights-on) while you perform the crank. | ||
| Timebandit |
Yikes. TBowdre has already installed a switch on his bike so he's ready for when the next stator failure occurs. | ||
| Tbowdre |
with 16,000 miles on the clock I am on my THIRD stator. The one thats in there now has about 4 or 5000miles. I looked at it a little while ago "just for fun" during a valve check and it is an awful dark brown color. still charging tho so yeah Im ready sorry for the hijack | ||
| Reepicheep |
If anyone is serious about it, I'll build a device that will power up the HID only after the bike motor is running. Two wires in (V+ and GND), and two wires out (HID+ and HID-). Its exactly the same schematic that my grip heater thermostat used (without needing to populate the thermistor), and will use nearly all the same subroutines. The heater thermostat already does this, it won't start heating things until it has detected the motor is running. So all I have to do is stub out all the thermal regulation code and have it on or off. It already runs 30 watts worth of heaters without even getting warm. I doubt it would have any trouble with a HID. I think the MOSFET that does the switching is rated for as much as 80 amps (though mine won't do that much as it isn't quite biased high enough, nor does it have a heatsink, though I could fix both those problems pretty easily). I don't scale well (it takes me about 30 minutes to solder up a board, and I don't have much free time in a week). So you could build it yourself easily as well. I'll be happy to supply a pre programmed microcontroller for you at cost. Or for $20, you can get your own programmer (which is a lot of fun and can solve a lot of neat problems). The whole circuit is less than $10 or $15 worth of parts... and are all available for purchase and shipping straight from Newark. I'll give away the source code under a non commercial license for personal use. Start selling them though, and I get a small cut (small, as I recognize how much work it is to try and turn something like this into a business... designing it is the easy part). | ||
| Timebandit |
great idea. i like your PWM controller idea that fits in the bars. what's interesting (to me at least) about this sort of project is that there are lots of interesting add-on type devices that people want to add to their bikes, and all of these require adding-on another controller box somewhere. things like a heated grip PWM controller, a headlight turn-on delay for HID, a headlight modulator, brake light flashers, etc. producing boutique devices in small volume results in bulky devices that are hard to hide on the bike. any attempt to commercialize such devices requires minimization to be successful. that makes a simple product relatively expensive to develop. often, this sort of development is beyond the capabilities of an interested hobbyist. so you're stuck trying to design interesting products for small production volumes, and there is great capital expense involved in turning out a real product. the result is a trend where the rider tries to hide several fairly large boxes in different places all over the motorcycle. things would be so much simpler if all of these projects could be centralized into one container. life would be even simpler if a forward-looking manufacturer would consider implementing some of these ideas during the bike's design stage. many of these products would be warmly accepted if they were offered as part of a bike's standard feature set. I think that as HID gains acceptance, HID turn on delay will probably have to become a standard equipment on future bikes to spare the battery. Reep, I was surprised when I first learned that the industry standard rate for an inventor's commission when a product goes to production is about 2% of sales. There is a high barrier preventing most products from ever making it to market. It also means that you have to design a really successful product to hit it big. The engineer who designed the Super Soaker watergun only got 2% of sales, but in his case the device was so popular that he made $20 million in royalties, 2% at a time. Good for him. | ||
| Oldog |
hey Reep send me the particulars im curious may need help with the micro controller | ||
| Ros |
Hey Reep send me too, because I really interested to mount again the HID. Thanks | ||
| Nattyx1 |
I think an inline, not-so-legal headlight switch will be the right thing... Just gotta find a super stealthy way to install and mount it. | ||
| Tbowdre |
A toggle fits nicely between the headlights and mounts to the black plastic housing. The wiring is right there for a simple install. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Dang, missed those responses... I think the board was having some hiccups on "since last search". I have another thread for the heated controller where I posted schematics, but I'll post them here for completeness...  For that, you can build it as is, or drop the thermistor and attached resistor. You could also drop both LED's if you wanted, they are just for warm fuzzies. The mosfet will probably work fine for the HID, it can handle a lot of current. I'll have to change the code to make it just look at volts, instead of both volts and temps, but that's easy, just comment stuff out. It's very buildable on just a perf board, not that many connections. Or you can use my board layout without the extra parts... its a bit tight because I was fitting the whole thing in your bars. The next rev is going to give that up. Here is the parts list (from Newark.com, great to deal with) Newark Part No: 92C2429 Manufacturer Part No: PIC18F1220-I/P UOM Each/1 Quantity: 10 Price: $2.44 Extended Price: $24.40 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 001 Description: IC, 8BIT MCU, PIC18F, 40MHZ, DIP-18; Controller Family/Series:PIC18; Core Size:8 bit; No. of I/O's:16; Program Memory Size:2 kWords; EEPROM Memory Size:256Byte; RAM Memory Size:256Byte; CPU Speed:40MHz Newark Part No: 98K5005 Manufacturer Part No: 1N4007. UOM Each/1 Quantity: 10 Price: $0.029 Extended Price: $0.29 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 002 Description: STANDARD DIODE, 1A, 1KV, DO-41; Diode Type:Standard Recovery; Repetitive Reverse Voltage Vrrm Max:1kV; Forward Current If(AV):1A; Forward Voltage VF Max:1.1V; Forward Surge Current Ifsm Max:30A Newark Part No: 26M8435 Manufacturer Part No: 199D104X9050A1V1E3 UOM Each/1 Quantity: 10 Price: $0.527 Extended Price: $5.27 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 003 Description: CAPACITOR TANT 0.1UF, 50V, RADIAL; Capacitance:0.1ÏF; Capacitance Tolerance:ñ 10%; Voltage Rating:50VDC; Series:Tantalex; Capacitor Case Style:Radial; No. of Pins:2; Lead Spacing:2.54mm; Operating Temperature Range:-55øC to +85øC Newark Part No: 99M0578 Manufacturer Part No: 199D225X0035B1V1E3 UOM Each/1 Quantity: 10 Price: $0.651 Extended Price: $6.51 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 004 Description: CAPACITOR TANT 2.2UF, 35V, RADIAL; Capacitance:2.2ÏF; Capacitance Tolerance:ñ 20%; Voltage Rating:35VDC; Series:Tantalex; Capacitor Case Style:Radial; No. of Pins:2; Lead Spacing:2.54mm; Operating Temperature Range:-55øC to +85øC Newark Part No: 71J5009 Manufacturer Part No: LM2931Z-5.0G UOM Each/1 Quantity: 10 Price: $0.368 Extended Price: $3.68 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 005 Description: IC, LDO VOLT REG, 5V, 0.1A, TO-92-3; Primary Input Voltage:26V; Output Voltage Fixed:5V; Dropout Voltage Vdo:160mV; No. of Pins:3; Output Current:100mA; Operating Temperature Range:-40øC to +125øC; Termination Type:Through Hole Newark Part No: 40M8391 Manufacturer Part No: CMF1/41002FLFTR UOM Tape and Reel Cut/1 Quantity: 20 Price: $0.037 Extended Price: $0.74 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 006 Description: RESISTOR, METAL FILM, 10KOHM, 250mW, 1%; Resistance:10kohm; Resistance Tolerance:ñ 1%; Power Rating:250mW; Voltage Rating:250V; Series:CMF; Temperature Coefficient:ñ 100ppm/øC; Resistor Element Material:Metal Film Newark Part No: 40M8448 Manufacturer Part No: CMF1/42001FLFTR UOM Tape and Reel Cut/1 Quantity: 20 Price: $0.037 Extended Price: $0.74 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 007 Description: RESISTOR, METAL FILM, 2KOHM, 250mW, 1%; Resistance:2kohm; Resistance Tolerance:ñ 1%; Power Rating:250mW; Voltage Rating:250V; Series:CMF; Temperature Coefficient:ñ 100ppm/øC; Resistor Element Material:Metal Film Newark Part No: 58K3829 Manufacturer Part No: MCMF0W4FF2202A50 UOM Tape and Reel Cut/1 Quantity: 20 Price: $0.046 Extended Price: $0.92 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 008 Description: RESISTOR, METAL FILM, 22KOHM, 250mW, 1%; Resistance:22kohm; Resistance Tolerance:ñ 1%; Power Rating:250mW; Voltage Rating:250V; Series:MFR; Temperature Coefficient:ñ 200ppm/øC; Resistor Element Material:Metal Film Newark Part No: 50F7750 Manufacturer Part No: NTCLE100E3103JB0 UOM Each/1 Quantity: 12 Price: $0.584 Extended Price: $7.01 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 009 Description: Thermistor; Thermistor Type:NTC; Resistance:10kohm; Thermistor Tolerance:ñ 5%; Beta:3977K; Operating Temperature Range:-40øC to +125øC; Thermistor Case Style:Radial Lead; No. of Pins:2; Beta Lower Temperature:25øC Newark Part No: 30M0749 Manufacturer Part No: FDP5800 UOM Each/1 Quantity: 10 Price: $1.94 Extended Price: $19.40 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 010 Description: N CHANNEL MOSFET, 60V, 80A, TO-220; Transistor Polarity:N Channel; Continuous Drain Current Id:80A; Drain Source Voltage Vds:60V; On Resistance Rds(on):10.4mohm; Rds(on) Test Voltage Vgs:20V; Threshold Voltage Vgs Typ:2.5V Newark Part No: 09J9301 Manufacturer Part No: SSL-LX3059IGW UOM Each/1 Quantity: 10 Price: $0.284 Extended Price: $2.84 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 011 Description: LED, T-1, RED / GREEN, RADIAL; Bulb Size:T-1 (3mm); Viewing Angle:60ø; Forward Voltage / Color:R 2V / G 2.2V; LED Mounting:Through Hole; Lens Shape:Round; Wavelength / Color:R 635nm / G 565nm; Luminous Intensity:30mcd; No. of Pins:3 Newark Part No: 14N5684 Manufacturer Part No: MC24355 UOM Each/1 Quantity: 20 Price: $0.31 Extended Price: $6.20 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 012 Description: TERMINAL BLOCK EUROSTYLE, 2POS, 26-14AWG; Connector Type:Eurostyle Terminal Block; Series:MA331-500; Connector Mounting:PCB; Pitch Spacing:5mm; No. of Contacts:2; Wire Size (AWG):26-14; Contact Plating:Tin; Contact Material:Brass Newark Part No: 52K3279 Manufacturer Part No: 1-390261-5 UOM Each/1 Quantity: 10 Price: $0.161 Extended Price: $1.61 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 013 Description: DIP SOCKET, 18POS, THROUGH HOLE; Connector Type  IP Socket; No. of Contacts:18; Pitch Spacing:2.54mm; Row Pitch![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/ohwell.gif) .62mm; Contact Termination:Solder; Contact Material:Phosphor Bronze; Contact Plating:Tin; Socket Mounting:PC Board Newark Part No: 79R3109 Manufacturer Part No: RL81C221MDN1KX UOM Tape and Reel Cut/1 Quantity: 20 Price: $0.555 Extended Price: $11.10 Customer Part Number: Customer PO Line Number: 015 Description: CAPACITOR ALUM ELEC, 220ÏF, 16VDC, RADIAL; Capacitor Dielectric Type:Polymer Aluminium; Capacitance:220ÏF; Capacitance Tolerance:ñ 20%; Voltage Rating:16VDC; ESR:0.012ohm; Series:L8; Life Time @ Temperature:2000 hours @ 105øC Those Euroblock connectors won't work if you are building something to wedge into a handlebar, and I think I had to get a different capacitor to fit as well, but we are moving away from that design anyway, so I would use them. They make hookup really nice. I can post get you the code, but you need a programmer to program the controller. Not a big deal, they are like $20 and work with free software (for non commercial use). But I'll be happy to program chips for you... send me as many as you want and a SASE, and I'll program them and send them back. | ||
| Reepicheep |
And I'll be happy to build a few of these and send them out while we debug... But it is third on my list of "hobby time". I have to first rebuild the kids new (to us) KX-100, and I have a chunk out of the rear head of my Uly from the accident that has to be dealt with. So it may be a month or two. And now that I think about it, if you want to *really* play, build this instead...  That has an LCD (that you would not have to hook up)... which we could make do all sorts of cool things (transient voltage detector and thermometer are at the really easy ones... the fun stuff will have to wait until we have time to tap into ECM data) You will have to add the MOSFET to that on one of the DOB leads, and any LED indicators if you want them (though you probably won't with the LCD in there). The LCD module is maybe $15 from Newark (a nice one)... cheaper ones elsewhere. Edit two... That second schematic doesn't include the 220uF capacitor on the power supply to the pic (which should be close to the PIC)... I had to add that to get really precise analog readings. (Message edited by reepicheep on January 06, 2012) (Message edited by reepicheep on January 06, 2012) | ||
| Timebandit |
if you're ordering from Newark, then you know what it's like to be buried under a mountain of those white padded envelopes.  | ||
| Reepicheep |
No kidding! I hate to throw them away they are so nice... but can't use them fast enough. I love how they package LED's in static sensitive protective film as well. | ||
| Timebandit |
i don't know how they do it -- i've ordered parts where the padded envelope costs more than the parts. i've got hundreds of those padded envelopes in a big box because i just can't bring myself to throw them into a landfill. here's a thought -- they could come in really handy to hold fasteners/small parts when it's time to disassemble the bike to perform a valve check. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I also use them as padding when shipping... not to put stuff in, but just to line the shipping box with. Like bubble wrap, but with paper armor. | ||
| Pyrogen |
I have a question. The headlights have a relay stock, correct? Then, a "simple" re-route of the relay initialization wire, (the circuit that activates the relay and provides power through the relay) from its current connection to a connection that is active only after the ignition switch is turned to start engine. My 07 Ninja had this set up so if the ignition switch was on, but the engine not running, the headlights were NOT on, but came on once the ignition switch is turned to start. Granted its not a perfect solution instance one, the engine didn't start, but once released, the lights will come on; or instance two, a failing stator, you can not switch the headlights off to maybe reach your destination before the bike craps out on you. Of course if there is not a factory headlight relay, then it won't work anyway without the installation of a relay. If I am mistaken or wrong in any way, please let me know, as I am always eager to learn. |
