| Author | Message | ||
     Avc8130 |
So I started playing around with heated gear on my 09. My 09 has the stator harness and a fresh stator after the harness. The harness "functioning" causes my heated gear to go cold, so I commented to the gear manufacturer and they contacted their HD Source for some advice. Here is what I got back: I spoke with a friend that works at Harley and was able to give me a bunch of information. According to Harley specs the charging system for your bike should produce from 364-442 watts @ a minimum of 3000rpm to achieve 13v. The factory charging system only maintains the battery until 5000rpm where it starts to charge the battery. There was a service bulletin for this problem and if you are the original owner you should have gotten it. If your bike is still in warranty they will install the parts for free, if you are out of warranty it will be about $206 and up. If you had this bulletin taken care of but you had already stressed out the stator I was told that your stator will probably not last much longer. The incident with the relay kicking out happens under 2 conditions: low oil flow or excessive heat in the stator. The bulletin number is B-099. You have until February 15, 2012 to get the upgrade because after this date Harley will no longer be manufacturing this kit. According to my source if you have all stock electrical accessories on, lights on high, fan running, and the optional heated grips @ 3000rpm you only have 3.5A available for use. A 90w liner on full at 13v will draw 6.92A. Unfortunately there is no posted rating of output after the upgrade. From what I was told is that your bike was actually designed for racing and not street use, even though it is street legal. If you are running at 5k+ rpm all the time then your stator is kicking out because of the heat that is generated within the charging system. Some seems inline with what the forum "knows" and some seems contrary. Interesting either way. ac | ||
| Brumbear |
Anth I gave up I popped off the "fix" I'm running straight stock and saving my money for the magneto and stator from ebr. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Brum, That is nice and all...but you WILL kill your stator that way. At least with the "fix" they seem to last (fresh stator with the fix its whole life) *knocks on wood*. The EBR stator/rotor looks appealing, but the reduced output can't possibly like heated gear. ac | ||
| Sportster_mann |
So, they designed a racing motorcycle with a rev limit of 10.5K that you can't rev above 5000 ... | ||
| Froggy |
My 08 and my 09 with 08 setup handles my heated jacket and gloves along with my GPS and other doodads fine (I don't run highbeams on 24/7), but I do recommend you use a battery tender to top it off overnight occasionally. I do agree it would be nice to have the extra wattage of the 09 setup without the issues, but I traded some power output for reliability. I had the 09 stator with harness on the whole time get fried faster than the stator before which died after having the harness on for the last 10% of its life. (Message edited by froggy on December 23, 2011) | ||
| Avc8130 |
Froggy, Do you have a voltage gauge on your bike? My big fear isn't topping the battery up after I get home, but having a battery that won't start the bike after riding to work or some other place. I use my bike more for commuting than joyriding around the house unfortunately. ac | ||
| Froggy |
I just use the stock one thats on the dash on my 09, but nothing on my 08. I generally avoid using the heated gear when I'm not on a the highway, as usually I'll roast anyway due to the low speed, then flip it on after merging on the Taconic Parkway. Voltage seems to be unaffected, my bike bounces between 13.7-14.2 volts, regardless of speed, rpm, heated gear, engine temp. To be honest I am more concerned about my tires than anything else, the Pilot Power 2CT on my CR sucked enough in the summer, they are even worse now. As you know I commute with my bike too, and being that I work the evening shift I have to start my bike after it sits freezing outside after sunset. So far its been good, my battery on my 09 is shot and it reminds me every time I start, but I blame that on killing the battery multiple times due to stator related issues. 08 handles it fine, neither bike always starts on the first attempt, but neither does my XB or Blast when it gets this cold. Long story short, assuming your battery is in good shape, and your stator isn't on the way out, you shouldn't have a thing to worry about. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Froggy, Does your heated gear have no controller? I can adjust mine from roast all the way down to not even feel it. I find <40F to be cold whether I am on the highway or on the back roads, it is cold. I'm not sure how you could find Pilot Power 2CTs to "suck", but that is a topic for another thread. Both of my 1125s start on the first try. In fact, I'd be very concerned if a fuel injection motor didn't. ac | ||
| Froggy |
It used to have a controller, then I didn't plug it in one day and it got caught in the wheel or sprocket. I don't feel like spending coin on another one! | ||
| Timebandit |
AVC, I agree completely with the observations in your first post. I think that what you were told is accurate, even though there's an abundance of forum lore about the charging system that directly contradicts it. But then the same forum lore also contradicts basic engineering principles. Some of it is 180 degrees out of phase. Some of the lore has become firmly entrenched because it has been generated by anecdotal observations of people whose opinions are highly regarded and/or controlling of content. That makes it difficult and unpopular for anyone to try to do the right thing and de-bunk the common misconceptions. What to do? I know what I'm going to do with my bike, and I'm not following the consensus of opinion. But I can't see any point in trying to force knowledge upon non-thirsty horses in an effort to rectify the consensus of opinion. I've learned the hard way that there's no point in trying to argue engineering principles on internet fora that aren't subject to peer reviewed publication. Saying things that conflict with the common opinion in an attempt to de-bunk faulty myths are never warmly accepted, because you're arguing against the common perception. By definition, it is widely held and you are in the minority. Sometimes people are less than objective when opinions are at play, and they tend to take it personally when someone infers that they are wrong. Non-engineers will put up the most intense fights to preserve their opinion, and your efforts -- as well intentioned as they might be -- will be fought as if you were trying to be a troublemaker. People will be unwilling to accept sound knowledge when it contradicts their own personal observations. Your efforts are invariably fruitless. Trying to change the consensus of opinion makes you unpopular because people don't like to be told they're wrong. Telling them they're wrong only puts the messenger in hot water. There's no reward to be gained, and you only make enemies of people who don't like to find out they're wrong. That embarrasses them, and some of them will strike back at you, because that's all that they know how to do. There's nothing to be gained by playing the role of the iconoclast. | ||
| Jdugger |
Some of what was said seems contradictory to anecdotal experience, that's for sure. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Timebandit, Let's step away from Mythbusters for a moment, care to share your plan? What the "HD source" said seems true to me. The bike does not "charge" below 5k, but only maintains. Basically, the charging system has enough umph to run the bike, but not enough to meaningfully charge the battery. We can pull some interesting info from his claims: If the bike provides 364-442 watts at 3k to make 13V on the battery, and that is NOT charging the battery, and there are 3.5A spare (3.5A+13V= 45W) that would lead to the conclusion that the bike NEEDS 319-197 watts to run (including lights/fan/factory grips). This could help you find the answer to "how much juice does the bike need to run?". Subtract the wattage for the factory lights/fan/grips and you should have your answer. ac | ||
| Timebandit |
Anthony, I'm sure that *you* know my plan already. We've discussed it before and it's not like I've kept it a secret. We've even gone through calculating some numbers. (BTW -- when I saw your first post, I immediately thought about your vreg numbers thread, and doing some subtracting to try to see how many watts the bike actually needs to run. A more direct way to get the answer would be to use a clamp-on ammeter to take measurements on a bike in the race configuration.) Back to my plan: I've talked about my plan so many times that I'm sure that everyone here has already heard it. I'll sound like a broken record if I keep repeating it over and over again ad nauseum, so I've limited my efforts to giving people helpful answers to questions rather than preaching about how people should do things. I don't want to be regarded as the guy who walks the streets wearing the sign that says "The End is Near." Nobody takes him seriously. Revisiting some of this is like re-beating a dead horse; Nightsky started a thread on the 2008 charging system where he documented the charging system's performance in pretty good detail. His charging system test results and conclusions were 100% in agreement with what the secret "H-D source" had to say. Specifically, his data showed: the RPM at which voltage reaches acceptable output; the RPM at which the system reached it's rated power output; that the system produced the exact same voltage and power outputs that the "H-D source" said they should put out at that RPM; that running the bike at low RPM wouldn't charge the battery; why so many people have battery problems with the 2008 charging system. He covered all the bases. It may be worth going back to his posts and looking at the numbers again. The fact that the discussion keeps dragging on and on and on tells me a couple of things: For those people who know how to interpret the data set, the discussion on the merits of the 2008 charging system is over. For those people who don't understand the numbers, there is an ongoing effort to decide whose opinion should be relied on. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Timebandit, It is always fun to see people try to wrap their heads around electricity. I find myself getting lost every now and then also. Everyone is stuck on the only output they are able to measure easily: voltage. Voltage is nice and all...but it isn't the whole package. A functioning RR will keep voltage "good". I am moving in tighter. Looking for POWER, WATTS. That is tougher. We need more amps for the same volts if we are looking for more power. P=VI...can't mess with that...it's LAW. Not a theory, not a postulate, LAW. The EBR and 08 "solutions" are "nice"...but they don't cover it if you want power. I don't want to have to worry about running my heated gear when it is 20F. My commute usually has nice back roads and a small stint on a highway. I can do all of that 5k+ to actually enter the CHARGING realm. But my commute winds down with about 10-15 mins of slower traffic with traffic lights and 15-25mph speed limits. I can't be worrying whether I got enough "charge" in the battery to restart in 20F after work. (Tending at work is NOT an option). Add the stator harness to the mix and all hell breaks lose. Dropping a leg of the stator certainly doesn't help my situation. ac |
