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Dualbuells
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 04:22 pm: | 
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Timebandit - I checked with one of my suppliers and they have a four channel available. I'll check to see if I can get it as a "sample". Since the class I teach at the college was cancelled due to snow, I was able to tear into the stator, and open it up. I posted my photo yesterday. I was hoping our tech guy from work could check it out friday after work, but it didn't work out. Tomorrow I'm headed down from Charlevoix, Mi. around to Milwaukee, Wi. area to meet with a customer Monday, then off to a week long training seminar on our new CNC machine. That all said and done I won't be able to do anything with this till I get back in a week.
Two things I was considering, 1. wonder if you could "T" off on the return oil cooling line with a small diameter tube and jet it into/onto the stator winding. I'm not sure if there is enough "drain" back into oil reservoir or if diverting a small amount of oil would prove a problem. If it would "cool off" the winding, perhaps extend it's life expectancy. 2. Measuring temps on the stator with a type J or K thermocouple, since both have a magnetic leg may prove difficult to protect signal from the magnetic disturbance. we could put a small RTD (resistance temperature device) wafer, 1/16"thick X 1/16" X 1/16" housed in a copper housing and fix it to the top of the pole, nothing magnetic in the sensor to interfere with function of stator. I haven't talked to our engr/tech about it but it may be easier to accomplish and have better results on measuring the temps. let me know what you think. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 04:49 pm: |
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That all said and done I won't be able to do anything with this till I get back in a week.
sorry to hear about the delay. how much time do you think will it take once you return?
I checked with one of my suppliers and they have a four channel available.
four channels is even better. a 4th channel would allow us to record AT concurrently with the other temps. if 4 channel recording is available i would measure:
a. ambient air
b. oil sump
c. hot side of stator
d. cool side of stator
recording AT on a 4th channel would allow us to reference all observed operating temps to environmental conditions without having to try to pull that data off of the bus, or recording with handwritten notes. that would make it easier to compare/quantify the results from 2 different bikes. for example, one with standard rotor, one with machined EBR rotor.
1. wonder if you could "T" off on the return oil cooling line with a small diameter tube and jet it into/onto the stator winding.
I have always been thinking about buying a rashed-up cover to try re-routing the oil exactly that way using a spray bar. i stopped thinking about this when EBR offered the rotors with the oil jets.
2. Measuring temps on the stator with a type J or K thermocouple, since both have a magnetic leg may prove difficult to protect signal from the magnetic disturbance. we could put a small RTD (resistance temperature device) wafer, 1/16"thick X 1/16" X 1/16" housed in a copper housing and fix it to the top of the pole,
no doubt about it, there is going to be a lot of noise inside of that stator compartment.
i don't think you can mount to the top of a pole. a) magnetic interference, b) space. the top of the stator pole is in close proximity to the rotor. tolerances are very tight, as the distance between stator pole/rotor is purposefully minimized in order to maximize the magnetic field. |
Dualbuells
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 04:53 pm: |
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I just looked again at the stator wind, I'm retarded, end of pole is not a good place for anything 
however since the RTD sensor is Platinum film connected to silver plated copper wire in a copper housing, it may still be the better choice. The wires could be 30awg. Teflon insulated or Kapton design a copper clip to hold sensor onto windings. The adhesive on Kapton tape is only good to approx 150 deg.F so I don't think it will hold the sensor onto the winding....we use a room temp cure epoxy good to 450deg.F with excellent adhesion maybe that will work. |
Dualbuells
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 05:02 pm: |
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Since my current stator is still functioning and full of road rash,I may just see if I can get get coolant hose (on ebay)and braze a tee into it. there looks to be a 1/2" dia port at the bottom for oil drainage. If I use a .125" 304 SS tube attach additional cooling fins to it's exterior and jet it onto the windings. May not do anything for my current winding since it looks fairly toasted, but nothing ventured, nothing gained! |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 03:37 pm: |
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Dual, you back home yet? |
Dualbuells
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 05:09 pm: |
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Yep, been swamped at work here. Besides teaching 4 nights a week, I don't get home till after 9pm. That said, I've got the CR stator cover off and need to measure the posts on the winding to determine the best length for the sensors so I can get them ordered. I haven't had a chance to review a couple other sources for data loggers as I've been swamped with major projects to accomplish here at work....somehow it all has to get done, not enough hours in the day. |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 09:01 pm: |
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Dual,
Can you do me some other favors while the cover is off?
1. Can you verify whether there is a spline "missing" on the rotor (pic would be awesome).
2. Can you measure the location of the oil hole in the crank? (pic would be double awesome)
3. Can you measure the diameter of the hole in the crank? (pic please)
Really, can you take some pics and measurements that would be helpful to machining the rotor for the oil jet?
ac |
Dualbuells
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 10:02 pm: |
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Avc - I was not aware that the original factory stock stator/crank had the items your looking pictures for. But, I'll take a look at it and if it's there I can get pictures and post em up here. I just got home a few minutes ago from work/college, if you don't mind waiting till Friday or Saturday at the latest, I'll make it happen. |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 10:06 pm: |
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Dual,
The stock crank MUST have the oil port...otherwise the kit EBR sells is useless.
The rotor SHOULDN'T have a hole in it, but I think the rotor is already "missing" the spline in the area the hole needs to be made.
ac |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 10:36 pm: |
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AC, maybe I can help you. Right now I still have my 09 cover off after replacing some perfectly good parts from my charging system.  I'm holding off on reassembling the bike while I'm waiting/hoping that Dualbuells might be able to help us out with stator temperature sensors.
Although I can't speak to the EBR rotor mods, I can tell you that the stock oiling port that's covered-up on the crankshaft is clearly visible on your stock bike if you just remove the rotor to take a look. After I pulled the rotor I looked at the oiling port. It was MUCH SMALLER than I expected it to be.
I was disappointed. I thought the port was small enough (on par with those tiny little drill bits that always seem to break) to be inadequate for the proposed task. I immediately had doubts about whether the oil jets were going to allow sufficient flow to make any meaningful difference in cooling the 09 stators.
Although the oil jet modification may be helpful for cooling the 2008 systems that run cool anyway, I'm not convinced that it is going to be the final answer for the 2009 electrical system. Based on observations alone, I have serious doubts about whether the oiling upgrade will be able to dissipate enough heat to save the 2009 stators. I'm still thinking that the electrical solution (using a series regulator to avoid generating the heat in the first place) holds more promise than the mechanical solution (peeing tiny little squirts of oil on the hot 09 stator).
To this end, it's my intent to try to get temperature sensors placed on the 2009 stator so that I can collect objective data that will quantify the relative contribution of each of the different cooling approaches.
I'm thinking that as a machinist, you don't really want to rely on my measurements. You'd want to rely on your own measurements to answer your questions about the project. Is there a reason that you haven't opened up one of your bikes to take a look for yourself? You've got the bikes in your possession, so you've got the opportunity. I'm thinking that if you're considering doing any machine work of your own, your measurements would be better to rely on than anyone else's. There's no substitute for looking at the crankshaft ports with your own eyes.
With that said, I can tell you from memory that although I can't tell you what size bit fits in the stock oiling port on the crankshaft, the size of the stock oiling port on the crankshaft looks to be so tiny that I was disappointed when I looked at it. It was hard to imagine that enough oil could flow through that little port to solve the 2009 stator problem.
(Message edited by timebandit on February 01, 2012) |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 11:00 pm: |
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Time,
My bikes haven't come apart...because I am trying to sell them. At this point the 1125 is a notional hobby to me. My 09 CR WILL be sold so I am not really worried about MY charging system on that bike. It has been 100% since the stator was replaced and the harness was installed. 10k plus miles. I also happen to "enjoy" the bike, so RPMS are VERY rarely below 5k. I am firmly in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it crowd" on something like this. Dabbling inside that cover could result in needing a gasket, a new nut, a scratch on the cover, a broken wire from the snaking through the frame that is required, etc. That doesn't interest me on my bike as I move to sell.
Instead I have been thinking about buying a rotor on Ebay to modify and then providing it to someone to play with. Really, a distance from the crank to the center of the hole and the approximate diameter of the hole is all that I would need.
Look at what EBR does. They create a large hole where it meets up with the crank to account for size and location tolerances of the crank shaft hole. Then they neck this hole back down to keep the pressure/velocity up where it exits to the stator.
I am not surprised the hole is tiny. It is probably a fine line between helping the stator and reducing overall oil pressure where it is really NEEDED to support the engine.
One nice side effect you might not be considering is that this supply of oil would at least create a flow of oil through the area. Theoretically "new" oil would enter through the port directly to the stator. This oil would grab some heat from the stator and exit to be cooled in the cooler. This cycle would continue constantly so maybe, just maybe, it would be able to stay ahead of or at least even with the heat production.
Clearly the concept was important enough to SOMEONE (rotax?) that it made production. It is also important enough to EBR that they incorporated it even though we have 0 (ZERO) reports of 08 spec stator failure on this forum.
ac |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 12:19 am: |
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I have thought about that side effect, and needing the port to be small. I didn't miss out on that at all. It's just that I have a pretty good grasp of the thermodynamic math that's involved, and I'm not optimistic.
The 2008 stator, which already runs "cool", still sees maybe 1-3 kW of heat. That's a lot. But the 2009 stator has to be dumping a lot more than that in order to be burning up the stators. When I calculate thermal gradients and flow rates, there has to be a LOT of flow to make a difference in stator life.
I have no doubt that the jet will help a 2008 stator that's already within a reasonable temp range, but I have serious doubts that it will fix the 2009 problem. Read the ads for the cooling options on the EBR site and that email they sent to Zac; even EBR is unwilling to commit to a statement about how much this oil jet mod will help the 2009 problem. There is no quantification of efficacy and not guarantee of results because nobody has done long term testing on 1125s.
It would really help to monitor temperature.
(Message edited by timebandit on February 01, 2012) |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 08:45 am: |
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You cut quite a bit of this post out before I could respond...and most of my response was relevant to portions you editted away.
I agree. However, with that said, this charging system is NOT specific to the Buell. Just about every bike made in the last 20 years uses a similar setup.
You entire temperature probe experiment is EXACTLY why I was hoping to machine a rotor for a bike I hope to not own any more. LOL
I figured you would be recording temperatures of the completely stock setup. I was hoping that by the time you had that figured out and data recorded I could find a rotor and machine it with an oil jet. Then you could swap that in and do the same testing.
Then we could see practically if there is any benefit worthwhile.
You can go through the math and you can go through the computational analysis. But really, if everyone just treated the bike like it should be treated (a sport bike)...history has shown that the stock setup with the relay harness is "acceptable".
We have 146hp sport bikes that people want to put around on using 1/3 of their designed operating range. <4500 rpm there is no fun in this bike. Cruising along with CR gearing at 5k+ is easy and smooth. Heated gear? Only BMW puts heated anything on a sport bike. Cold days, I take the wife's bike as I know my 1125s don't like it.
If you want some help with the mechanics of your stator testing, let me know. The electronics are way above my head and I know that.
ac |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 11:48 am: |
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I know this is nothing more than personal preference, but I don't find the bike to be worth riding below 4500 either. In the lugging range of the motor, the bike lacks personality in that it doesn't offer much behavior to positively differentiate it from other bikes, so what's the point? I didn't buy my bike to get a cheap deal on a big twin cruising bike. If that were my goal I might as well be dead. JMO.
As far as heat goes, I think that the best news to come out for 1125 owners has been your analysis of the 3-phase switching system.
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/665120.html
Now that people realize how/why the charging harness upgrade works the way it does, they can utilize the solution it provides. Unfortunately, prior to explaining how the harness update works, so many people misunderstood the way that the harness upgrade functioned that they were trying to ride the bike below 5000 to protect the stator instead of above 5000. Now that this has been cleared up, I think that a lot of the stator problems may go away ... at least for the people who are willing to ride the bike like a sportibke. Now that people understand the system, know to keep an eye on the relays, and know to stay out of that dead zone below 4500, then they can eliminate a lot of the bike's problems pretty easily. That lessens the demand for more complicated / expensive / labor intensive solutions. I know I've said this before, but the charging harness upgrade has taken a really bad rap that it didn't deserve, just because people didn't understand what it was designed to do. It's actually a very clever solution that really works. It may not be the best solution, but it really is cost-effective from an engineering standpoint, and very simple to implement and maintain.
Compare that to other solutions that are labor intensive, require complicated engineering designs, and expensive production costs, and it's easy to see why Buell/H-D chose the relay harness upgrade for the warranty problem. They weren't just being cheap, and they weren't trying to stick it to us. It really is the best possible solution in terms of price/performance. Any other solution is going to be much less attractive from an economic development standpoint. |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 11:53 am: |
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So wait...you are saying all we need to do is take the bike, as delivered/modified by the manufacturer and ride the piss out of it?
CHECK!
LOL
ac |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 12:19 pm: |
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LOL. In the worst case scenario a hardcore sport rider gets the harness upgrade, rides the piss out of the bike, and changes stators if/when he has to. If he wants to provide an added measure of insurance, there are those optional upgrades that you mentioned.
It's hard to ignore the fact that some guys ride the piss out of their bikes with shunt regulators and harness updates and still get 10k+ miles out of the stators. I think the harness upgrade and riding style are both playing a role in the increased life expectancy that some people are observing.
What do you have on your CR stator? 10k? |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 01:17 pm: |
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10,500 miles and rolling strong.
Rape the bike. She likes it.
I took the bike for a 2600 mile journey that in my mind was the "proof". I wouldn't hesitate to do it again with this bike in the current setup.
ac
(Message edited by avc8130 on February 01, 2012) |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 03:01 pm: |
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I hope that all of those guys who are afraid to go far from home on their bike might gain some confidence from your experience. |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 09:09 pm: |
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I rode Loretta to Texas when she was 3 months old.
Other than fueling issues(the early fuel/timing maps sucked) the trip was a blast.
Then, three months later I rode her to Homecoming 2008 -
She like roadtrips.
Z |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 09:18 pm: |
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I think we 2009 guys are getting our nose rubbed in it by one of the 2008 guys.  |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 09:23 pm: |
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Meanie.
I have an 08 also. That bike took me to the Indy GP from NJ in 2010.
I'd ride either them across the country once it warms up since neither are great at heated gear.
(Message edited by avc8130 on February 01, 2012) |
Kevmean
| | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2012 - 12:42 am: |
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I took my 2009 Cr complete with harness mod on a 3100 mile european tour with no problems at all ....I took a spare belt in my luggage just in case (worked on the principle tools can always be found but spare belts can't)and also took some spare clutch fluid and tools to bleed if required but the clutch has never lost any fluid. |
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