| Author | Message | ||
     Oldog |
I have been following the charging threads ( I have an '08 ) as I want to run heated gear bike off battery volts 12.4 bike on battery volts 11.8 and slowly falling ( 1/10 v per 3 sec ) volts up over 14.7 at idle hunting between 13.9 and 14.11 I took a current reading on the bike ( engine off ) 7.2 amps ign on lights on etc. at 10.4 volts battery volts idling with a gerbings microwire jacket and gloves depends on heat setting full up pulls the volts down to about 12.5 ~ 13 from 13.7 ~ 14.11 ( this fluctuates ) as the heat control is Variable On time ( PWM? ) as you dial it up readings change voltages were taken at idle one test run where engine speed was raised to 3000 rpm volts dropped to about 13.2 13.5 ( gear was on ) even with the heat off the voltages seemed to drop to the mid 13v range at higher rpms | ||
| Reepicheep |
Jim, if you are in the mood to wire up a different (experimental) controller for that jacket, shoot me an email... I've made good progress, so it probably won't hurt you as bad as it hurt Alex.    | ||
| Oldog |
so it probably won't hurt you as bad as it hurt Alex. You set Prior on Fire? I have the 2 set point Gerbings heat troller, even on the X1 the instrument lights dim as the heat cycles on and off I need a bypass relay for starting and an am-meter for testing ( 0-30 amp ) or I need a beefy shunt resistor. I want to know the actual running current of the system with and with out the jacket and gloves, I am thinking about the series // switching regulator for the 1125, why that device gets hot is not clear to me, if the battery is fully charged or only needing partial alternator output then the regulator should be cool as the stator would be OFF ?? } | ||
| D_adams |
Looks like somebody's been playing Portal 2. (Message edited by d_adams on December 04, 2011) | ||
| Oldog |
Further measurements Last Friday I put my vom in the fairing, and went for a spin, observations. lights on ( low, jacket & gloves off ) ~ 13.2 and stable lights on (low, jacket & gloves ~ 50% ) ~ varying voltages 13.1 ~ 14 lights flickering lights on ( HI and Low, jacket and gloves on [ about 50% ] voltage fluctuation 12.8~ 13.5 gradually falling lights on ( Hi and Low, Jacket & gloves full on ) voltage falling steadily the '08 alternator cant handle a heated jacket and gloves, in addition to full lighting loads. if the low beams are kept on then it seems ok but near the limit... so 08 owners heres the story you can run a gerbings jacket and gloves ( just shy of 10 amps ) but you must not burn the high beams.. or if you need the highs turn off the jacket ( I did not try gloves vs jacket ) My question to the EE's working this, if you are at maximum load, is the shunt regulator still grounding the stator? Is this an over load meaning we are drawing more current than the stator can produce ( hence burning it up ) and the @$#%@#$% regulator is grounding the stator any way.. my thinking is that its no but I am not sure here. (Message edited by oldog on January 24, 2012) | ||
| Timebandit |
Voltage drops indicate that you've exceeded the maximum capabilities of the charging system with excessive load. The 2008 system is underpowered / not capable of doing the work that you're asking of it. Given sufficient time, overload conditions will burn up every stator. Every stator, given sufficient time. End of story. | ||
| Oldog |
the question still remains. is the "shunt" regulator still grounding the alternator output even as the system voltage drops below 13v? | ||
| Timebandit |
The shunt vreg dumps unused current, and if you overload the electrical system with heated gear then there is no unused current for it to dump. But I guess you're missing the point. The reality is that the question and the answer are moot. If you still need an answer to this question, then maybe you're missing the point about how shunt regulators work. You're talking about overloading the electrical system with heated gear. With a shunt regulator, it's already overloaded. It doesn't matter what you add/subtract in terms of load if you're using a shunt regulator. If you're using a shunt regulator, your stator is overloaded. If you're using a series regulator that's loaded with heated gear the system is also overloaded. It doesn't matter how you get to the overload condition, overload is overload. Overload burns out stators. The problem with shunt regulators is that they force the stator into overload at all times, regardless of the electrical load that the user places on the system. Given sufficient time, every stator will fail when overloaded. Every one. For some reason, people here like to believe that the load that they place on the bike makes a difference. With a shunt regulator it does not. People also like to believe that the 2008 stators are "safe" because they're not failing left and right. The truth is that 2008 stators are low powered, and that's the only thing that's "saving" them (postponing their failure). It's also what makes them useless for powering heated gear. The final answer for all of this stator stuff is simple, but people just refuse to accept an answer they don't like. High current demands will destroy your stator. It doesn't matter if you reach that condition using a shunt regulator and no additional load, or a series regulator and you load it up to the hilt with heated gear. Overload is overload, and overload causes thermal failure. The only reason 2008 stators aren't failing left and right is because their output is low enough that they haven't produced enough heat to reach MTBF yet. Believing that these stators will never fail is delusional. Failure is coming to everyone. If you want to run heated gear, then you shouldn't use a 2008 charging system. It's output is inadequate for the job. You've demonstrated that with sagging voltages. Your only viable option is a higher output charging system, which introduces it's own set of problems. | ||
| Dennis_c |
For the o8 charging system I put 3 LED in place of T94 bulbs that are 15w each there 3 of them + the 2010 LED tail light. I saved about 39 watts of power with the 3 LEDS and got more light. How much I saved on the tail light don't know maybe some one else can answer that. No problem with heated gear or low volts with everything on. | ||
| Curve__carver |
The running lights and license place lights are 5w each not 15. The LEDs would save about 9w which could make a difference. | ||
| Oldog |
Consider putting a HID headlight on one side and a switch on the other, so you can optionally remove some load.. 35W = about 3 amps at 12v from gerbings site gloves at 100% 26 watts or 2.2 amps gloves at 50% 13 watts or 1.1 amps liner (jacket w sleeves)100% 77 watts or 6.4 amps liner (jacket w sleeves)50% 38 watts or 3.2 amps | ||
| Oldog |
I am still interested in getting a actual running current and voltage measurement ( just the bike ) then test with the jacket and gloves thanks TB on the more expanded explanation my thinking perhaps flawed is that the alternator output is 100% with the regulator shorting to ground to hold the voltages down, if the voltage drops the regulator shuts off the ground so you may have only a slight over load ( which should be manageable for short periods ) So if I know the ACTUAL loads imposed by essential equipment and auxiliaries could the marker lights be shut off in the headlight pod?, Could they be changed out for led, My thinking is to get the loads down below the 100% of ACTUAL alternator output, But make the changes reversible for the warm season where I can run say 2 headlights. or have all lights except headlights be led to reduce total current leaving enough to allow the gear to operate safely The idea is to keep the stator alive but allow me to run my gps and heated gear perhaps I need to build Reepi's micro control for this bike and limit the on time for the heat... | ||
| Timebandit |
Dog, I think you're still missing the big picture. There is no way to rationalize that there's any sort of protection involved if you're sagging the voltages. What that tells you is that you're doing even more severe damage than you were doing before. The stator produces high voltage that is dependent upon RPM. All of that voltage is dropped to the regulated voltage (or to a lower than properly regulated voltage when you're sagging). The amount of power dissipated in the stator is directly proportional to the voltage drop. (See Nightsky's posts where he discussed this in detail.) If you sag voltages, then the voltage drop and the power dissipation are more extreme. If you sag the voltages, you're increasing power dissipation in the stator and shortening it's life even more than if the voltages weren't sagging. Swapping out incandescent lights for LEDs is nothing more than pissing in the wind. You guys aren't doing the math. You're fussing over saving 15W on the battery side, while you fail to appreciate that the stator is still dumping a kilowatt of heat into your oil because of the shunt regulator. Saving 15W is only 1.5% of 1kW. You're deluding yourselves if you think replacing a couple of low power lamps with LEDs is going to help you. The one good idea you've offered is the use of a PWM controller. That will decrease load, but if and only if you don't run the heated gear at a full duty cycle. If you cut the duty cycle in half, that will help you A LOT. That's where you need to focus your attention. | ||
| Oldog |
TB what I have in mind is installing a. LED lamps, saving 10 watts is about 1 amp of stator output no longer used for lighting and usable for heated gear b. 1 or 2 HID headlights (low beams) and a switch on one to turn it off ( removing 35W of load or almost 3 amps ) c. determine by measurement what the actual load applied to the systems are in the normal working environment, and slowly add load and determine the actual output limits IMO the electrical systems on motor cycles are not new tech, the heat input to the oil is not critical to engine operation and is not relevant except if cooling the stator cooling preserves the wiring or insulation, because in the end its an insulation failure that is failing the higher wattage stators, why I want to know is to determine a maximum load that is safe and manage that load to allow me to be warm and not toast the stator, right now that means not running the heat to full and not using the high beams for any length of time. AM I SAFE or will I fail the stator one last thought I am seriously considering trying one of those VR units that opens the circuit rather than short it to lower the heat generated. ultimately, I understand that when the total load exceeds 350W I am looking at toasting the stator if its done long enough or often enough, and the symptoms are voltage becoming unstable and starting to fall Loads on the 1125 series bikes efi ECM injectors sensors fuel pump fans Instrument cluster turn signals plate lamp tail lamp running tail lamp stop marker lamps low beam lamps high beam lamps can any one think of other items? | ||
| Timebandit |
Asking the question a different way doesn't change the answer. This kind of reminds me of the 16 year old boy who is on a prom date. He asks a question but he doesn't like the answer that he gets, so he spends the rest of the night trying to ask the same question 1000 different ways, always hoping that the answer will change. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Is this what you are getting at Jim? This all assumes a shunt regulator. In condition one (regulating), the stator output voltage sine wave climbs to approximately 13.2 volts. Once 13.2 volts is exceeded, that leg is shorted directly to ground. This is the highest current load the stator will ever see, and the highest power the stator will ever be asked to dissipate. In condition two, (stator doing as much as it can do), the output voltage sine wave climbs, but never makes it quite up to 13.2 volts, so the shunt regulator never does anything. It's just an open circuit. The question: Is the second case a higher power dissipation within the stator? Or lower? Intuitively, I'm with you, I think its lower. In the first case, with the stator shunted to ground, the stator is absorbing all the power the stator makes. That's all its heat. In the second case, the stator is dissipating a lot of power, but the bike is consuming a lot of power as well. I haven't done the math to try and support this intuitive conclusion though, and TimeBandit has a much better grasp of this stuff than I do. (Message edited by reepicheep on January 26, 2012) | ||
| Timebandit |
Intuitively, I'm with you, I think its lower. The problem is that intuition seems right, but it doesn't lead you to the right answer. That thread by Nightsky explained how to calculate the power dissipation in the stator. It's a straightforward Ohm's Law calculation. It's probably worth taking another look at that thread to review his explanation. He showed that the power dissipation by the stator is proportional to the voltage drop across the stator. If you make that voltage drop bigger, the result can only be higher power dissipation. The bottom line is that if the regulated voltage sags, you're overloading the stator. Overloading is never good. It forces the stator to dissipate more power than in the regular shunt regulated state. The one thing that's worse for your stator that's already maximally loaded by a shunt regulator is exceeding the maximal load and further sagging the voltages. That causes you to dissipate more power than in the shunt regulated state. I think the problem is that your intuition tells you that the shunt regulator isn't working as hard, and you mistake that to mean that the stator isn't working as hard. | ||
| Oldog |
With the stator shunted to ground, the stator is absorbing all the power the stator makes. That's all its heat. Yes, Thanks Bill thats clearer, and further the stator and VR are as TB says designed to handle this and should reach mean time to failure If I reduce the electrical load over all then I have more energy or capacity to run accessories what is full normal full load as measured I find that my calculations and observed are usually close but seldom ever match exactly due to variations in equipment. | ||
| Timebandit |
what is full normal full load as measured full load depends on RPM. the only way for anyone to get the real answer is to clamp an ammeter onto a stator lead and take a real-world reading. i recommend that you do that. | ||
| Oldog |
I went back and re-read some of night skys' original calculations relative to the discussion, 950w disapated as heat... ( 09 stator ) I will look at that if I can get the clamp into the wiring I will try and set that up stay tuned.. Thanks for the input TB .. | ||
| Timebandit |
950w was for an 08 stator. | ||
| Oldog |
Oh yeah .. | ||
| Dennis_c |
I thought the T194 bulbs were 15w ea. I have 3 HID two on low beam one with a 10 second delay so I don't get all the load at once also a two pole switch to turn off my low beams. The LED help a lot a lot brighter. | ||
| Oldog |
Found this.. http://www.rc-electronics-usa.com/ammeters/dc-amp- meter.html this may be of interest. | ||
| Timebandit |
remember: shunt regulator --> maximum current at any RPM | ||
| Oldog |
Some times things take a while at the kennel ( home of the old dog ) my '25 has been sitting a couple of weeks for various and sundry reasons, key on low volts so a short time on the charger to touch up the battery ( about 15 min ) the batt then read 12.9v ( still weak but not too bad.) so here are a series of measurements the AC amps are from a Fluke 322 clamp on the taken in the under seat area just aft of the stator connector volts were taken at my 16 gauge harnes at the front of the bike ( lamp cord )by my fluke 179 VOM --------------------------------------- At the start motor cold and high idle on the weak battery, Hi beams on lights flickering AC amps 21.9 ~ 22.9 Batt Volts rising 13.9 ~ 14.0 At warm engine fan on (170f ind ) idle 16.87 ~ 17.68 AC amps, Batt volts 13.4 13.6 lights are still flickering LOW beams only warm engine > 170f fan is on 16~18 amps AC Batt volts 13.19 still flickering some readings more steady Add the jacket and gloves at ~ 1/2 13~17 AC amps batt volts 13.2 ~ 14.0 V Raise engine speed to 4000 rpm and hold 24A Ac 13V batt dropping slightly fans are on ET is 181f High beam on jacket & gloves on fan is on 4000 rpm 22~23 Amps 13.6V heat is cycling Full On heat LOW beams on fan is on Idle 13.9 ~ 15 Amps batt Volts 12.2 and flux Full heat 4000 rpm fan on AC amps 22.7 Batt Volts 12.69v interesting thing was at the trottle release I expected the battery volts to come up quikly as I shut off the heaters at once no dice these are my observations, so trying to budget power or using a switching regulator will work, looks like riding reasonabley with the jacket and gloves and not running the highs will be ok this is my conclusion, Bartimus has observed similar I hope that the measurements help from the kitchen waitin on dinner 'oldog |
