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Yugi
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 01:08 am: | 
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3 phases are between 3 wires: 1-2, 2-3 and 1-3. If you cut 1, then you will be left with 2-3 only. |
Sparky
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 01:54 am: |
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I think you are confusing the AC stator test where the stator is disconnected and AC voltage is measured between the 3 wires: 1-2, 2-3 and 1-3. And, yes, if you cut 1, then you will be left with 2-3 only to measure AC volts.
But that is not how the stator works in the charging system when it's connected to the VR. So the 3 phases are wire 1, wire 2, wire 3. If you cut 1, you will still have phase 2 and phase 3. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 02:48 am: |
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Sparky is correct. |
Pmjolly
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 11:10 am: |
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If you cut a wire, you will now have single phase across two wires. This discussion is akin to saying you have two phases in your common house wiring. You have three wires, but single phase. Also, the three phase windings are not taking turns producing pulses. They are all three constantly producing AC 120 degrees out of phase from each other. Now, if you look at the output from the VR, it might be seen as pulses in turn from each winding? |
Sparky
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 11:00 pm: |
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We now have a single phase system? I'd rather believe the Factory Service Manual specs: Alternator, 38 amp three phase; Regulator, 45 amps @ 3600 rpm, three phase shunt.
PM, if you've got something to back up your conflicting statements, let's see it. |
Yugi
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 11:16 pm: |
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quote:We now have a single phase system?
Single phase, when the harness relay cuts the wire. Three phase with all 3 wires. |
Pmjolly
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2011 - 10:48 pm: |
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+1 Yugi
@ Sparky, What statement did I make that was conflicting, and what did it conflict with? |
Pmjolly
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2011 - 10:55 pm: |
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Who has a wiring diagram of the harness fix and where the relay breaks the circuit? I can read wiring diagrams just fine. I'll admit if I am wrong on this. I have an '08, so I have not dealt with this harness fix. |
Yugi
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 12:09 pm: |
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The relay breaks one of 3 wires going from the stator to VR |
Sparky
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 05:02 pm: |
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Admin: can we post this B-099 Service Bulletin to the Service Bulletins, Recalls section if that is allowed?
PM, I'm not picking on you but I'd like to try to clear up some misleading comments that seem to abound in this thread and get everybody on the same track wrt this unfortunate stator/rotor/VR situation.
By conflicting statements you said,
1) "You have three wires, but single phase." Then you said, "Also, the three phase windings ..."
Forgive me if I'm being picky or confused, but this seems conflicting to me.
2) "You have three wires, but single phase." Then you said, "They are all three constantly producing AC 120 degrees out of phase from each other."
Unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean, single phase AC means you're going to have one sine wave AC, not AC 120 degrees out of phase from each other.
3) "Also, the three phase windings are not taking turns producing pulses."
The most common depiction of 3 phase AC waveforms I've seen looks like this:
ref http://aaenvironment.com/Electricity/ThreePhaseEle ctricityPicture.gif
As you can see, the 3 phases do indeed take turns producing pulses.
Finally, look at Figure 11, Relay Sub-Harness Circuit on pg. 6 in the B-099 Service Bulletin link above to see the circuit diagram. The service bulletin and an introductory letter was given to me by the dealer when he installed the harness "fix" on my bike, so it can be fairly common knowledge to those with later 1125s. Be glad you've got a 2008. |
Pmjolly
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2011 - 12:14 am: |
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Sparky, Thanks for posting that bulletin. I have added it to my documents library. Sorry about the seemingly conflicting statements. I believe I am simply guilty of failing to explain my thoughts clearly.
1) Three wires but single phase was referring to common residential electrical services. I was trying to make a reference people would be able to relate to. The common residential service is 120/240 single phase. It has three wires, but is still single phase. When I said three phase windings, I was referring to the stator. I was talking about two totally different things there.
2)You actually got what I was saying on this one. You just left a little out. When the relay contact is open, you have single phase and only one sine wave. You still physically have three wires, but only two are connected providing the single phase, single sine wave. When it is closed, you have three phase and three sine waves.
3) I am guilty of saying this one wrong. They do constantly produce rising and falling voltage. You can call them pulses if you wish. They also produce zero voltage as the wave form passes through the x axis right before the current changes direction. My mind went to a square wave when you said pulses. You would not see that from the stator, but maybe somewhere in the voltage regulator.
In the wiring diagram from the service bulletin, it is clear the relay is simply opening one of the three wires from the three phase stator. The result is a single phase circuit with one AC waveform. When you cut one wire like that, you are disconnecting two out of three phases. It is easy to see in the diagram you referred to earlier in this thread. With one out of the three wires cut from the stator, the entire circuit through the stator is on only two wires. Follow the two wires through your drawing. It goes through two windings connected in series. This is the same as one long winding. The third winding is not connected in any way with its wire cut. It cannot complete the circuit for two out of three phases. If you tried to measure the three phases with one wire cut, you would get voltage at only one of the three combinations that are the three phases. This IS the same thing as the stator voltage check. You check 1-2, 0 volts. 1-3, 0 volts. 2-3, you get single phase AC of whatever it is supposed to put out. |
Rhard
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2011 - 11:37 am: |
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Talked to CC H-D and they will put on the '08 stator when I told them I'd pay for the rotor. Hope they give me a discount on the rotor. |
Sparky
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2011 - 02:59 pm: |
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PM, I think you are not understanding the way the electrons really flow in this charging system. Referring to the diagram I posted earlier,
-- when one set of coils (one phase) produces a positive going "pulse" the electrons flow out through one of the upper set of diodes in the VR,
-- out to the battery or load and
-- returns to the stator through one of the lower set of diodes if the relay is open or through two diodes if the relay is closed to complete the return path.
It's the two sets of diodes that allow each phase to operate independently and makes the system work differently than the stator voltage test. Thus when one leg is cut, there will be two phases producing current independently.
When the relay is open you are seeing the current path as two windings connected in series. That's not quite true. It is not the same as one long winding because one of the windings is producing voltage and the other is providing a return path for that voltage to the common point that connects all the coils.
Look at the 3 phase waveform posted earlier. Do you see 3 voltage "pulses"? Imagine if the yellow wave is connected to the relay and the relay opens. The resulting waveform will then be the blue and the red -- two phases producing voltage. Not one phase.
I hope you see what I'm trying to say. |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2011 - 07:15 pm: |
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What would happen if you just rewound the stator with less windings per leg? |
Alaskacr
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2011 - 09:57 pm: |
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PM,
Your house wiring analogy is well meant but way off. Your house circut panel, has TWO phases, each at 120V but 180 degrees out of phase. So, when you need 240 volts, instead of using a hot and a neutral, you use the two opposing (180 degrees out of phase) 120 volt hots to get what APPEARS to be single phase 240.
The bike stator has three "hots". Each 120 degrees out of phase wwith the next. Remove one and you have two phases 120 out. The only way to get single phase out of our stators is to cut two legs. |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 04:53 pm: |
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HMM unless your using a single phase genset you might want to rethink that phase angle reference |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 08:16 pm: |
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PM -
When you cut one phase, you ARE producing from 2 of 3 sets of windings.
Key to your misunderstanding is "When the relay contact is open, you have single phase and only one sine wave."
Actually you would see a lumpy, bumpy thing on an O'scope. DEFINITELY not a sine wave anymore.
Look at Sparky's pic and just remove one trace. Average to taste.
Brumbear - you'd get less power out. maybe enough to run and not burn up, maybe not.
I like electrons
Z |
Rhard
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2011 - 03:41 am: |
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Dealer now says that H-D tech support does not recommend 08 charging system with the harness. I told them to just put the 10 system on and I'll replace it with the EBR system when this one burns out. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2011 - 10:14 am: |
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PM is correct. Your house is single phase 240. The neutral is center tapped at the transformer, giving you 120 at each leg. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2011 - 10:14 am: |
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Check any 240 volt appliance/tool. They all say 240 volt single phase. |
Pmjolly
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2011 - 08:24 pm: |
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After all this, I'm not really sure I understand how the stator is working with the harness upgrade. My mind has not changed about the house wiring. I know for a fact it is single phase. Hootowl hit the nail on the head. It's a single phase transformer with a center tapped secondary winding. The two 'legs' at your home are in phase with each other. If the loads are perfectly balanced on those two 'legs', no current will flow on the center wire, or neutral. Your entire home would be running off the 240 volt single phase winding. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 02:40 pm: |
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The two legs are actually out of phase by 180 degrees, but that's not because it is a two or three phase stator at the power plant, it is because the transformer at the substation by your house is center tapped. The power plant is generating a single phase, so it is single phase 240. The 120 legs are indeed out of phase in reference to each other, but the 240 power fed to your house is a single phase. Unlike the 1125's stator, which is actually generating three phases. |
Bextreme04
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2011 - 12:53 pm: |
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I'm with PM on this one... the winding are connected internally in the stator, that's why you check output 1-2, 1-3, 2-3. You are checking all three phases of the stator by checking the complete circuit of each phase. There is no ground or neutral to complete a circuit to like in a house system. Each leg is a hot line but you must have three hot wires in order to have three phase.
You are effectively saying that the stator becomes a two-phase stator when the harness relay kicks off... anyone ever heard of a two phase system? Two hot wires in a single circuit is a single phase system. When wiring AC electrical you can go line-line, line-neutral, or line-ground, and get different voltages each time but they are all still single phase, every three-phase house system I have ever seen has a minimum of 4-wires(three lines and a ground) three lines to produce the three phases and a ground for safety. If you cut one of the lines off you now have three wires( two lines producing single phase and a ground for safety) anyone want to argue their desk lamp with two wires and a ground is two-phase instead of single phase? |
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