| Author | Message | ||
     Avc8130 |
I also see a lot of the riders taking their turns on the 1200R's also. Eslick has one a few of the races, and I think just this weekend at Mid Ohio Chris Fillmore took the victory. While this doesn't convert DIRECTLY to racing the circuit on a WSBK, it still gets the riders more time on the course to notice the nitty gritty such as bumps, cracks, etc. ac | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sigh. A local doing well at a local track is a great story, and they are talented (more talented then I will ever be, for sure), but that doesn't make them ready to be anything but a back-marker across the rest of the AMA series. And I have to believe that riding 1200's around Mid Ohio would be about the best way possible to utterly and completely screw up any chance you might have to do well when you get a real bike... provided you manage to avoid the compound fracture resulting from some stupid high side caused by a bike that has little business on the track. KTM did well at Mid Ohio... they brought a very expensive bike and a good rider. Have you looked at where KTM's US corporate headquarters are located lately? IMHO.  (Message edited by reepicheep on July 12, 2011) | ||
| Avc8130 |
"And I have to believe that riding 1200's around Mid Ohio would be about the best way possible to utterly and completely screw up any chance you might have to do well when you get a real bike... provided you manage to avoid the compound fracture resulting from some stupid high side caused by a bike that has little business on the track." Glad that is just an opinion...clearly both RMR and KTM disagree as they allow their riders to risk compound fractures that would cost RMR a real shot at the DSB championship. Clearly there is SOME value in these guys running the 1200R series also. http://www.amaproracing.com/rr/events/standings.cfm?class=xr Awful lot of names from DSB/SBK on that list... ac (Message edited by avc8130 on July 12, 2011) | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
reep - make sure you post about that in the racing section so our members like James Gang Racing can learn about how the XR1200 has no business on the track. | ||
| Crackhead |
For all of you guys complaining about not testing with the weight enough, think about this. The entire payroll for E B R can fit in ONE bus. So, to do a Test and Tune day, do you: pull the guy off of the production line? or pull the guy off of dealing with suppliers so the guy on the production line has parts do to his job? or pull the guy that are doing the paper work for the government? I hope you get the point. I think Ratbuell said it best "Can you guys all still fit in a van to go to Gus's for lunch? Or do you need a second car now?" | ||
| Reepicheep |
I believe the racers running the 1200 are in it for the money. I was kind of a fan of Wandell's racing hobby when it was first announced... but watching it, and watching some of the bad crashes and waiting to see if the rider is going to get up again or not, kinda sucked all the fun out of it for me. My original point was that if someone thinks racing 1200's prepares you for an AMA superbike race, I think they are wrong. | ||
| Trojan |
I believe the racers running the 1200 are in it for the money. Nobody is going to get rich just by racing an XR1200 so I'm pretty sure they are not there for the money XR1200 racing is what it is: A competitive (and popular) single make series where rider skill counts for a lot and racing is close and entertaining. It may not be superbike racing but it deserves to be on track just as much as any other format. It prepares riders in the sense that the more you race the beter you get. What you race is largely irrelevant and a good rider will be good on any bike. If it helps a rider learn new tracks and racecraft then it is as good experience as any other class. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Crackhead "For all of you guys complaining about not testing with the weight enough, think about this. The entire payroll for E B R can fit in ONE bus. So, to do a Test and Tune day, do you: pull the guy off of the production line? or pull the guy off of dealing with suppliers so the guy on the production line has parts do to his job? or pull the guy that are doing the paper work for the government? " I understand the point youre attempting to make, but youre still not getting it: THEY DID TEST. We KNOW they've tested it cause there are pics of it on track in race trim and Anony has stated they tested it. That is why people like myself are curious why they wouldnt test the bike how they KNEW that they'd have to race it (with the extra 25lbs of ballast) Reepi: "I was kind of a fan of Wandell's racing hobby when it was first announced... but watching it, and watching some of the bad crashes and waiting to see if the rider is going to get up again or not, kinda sucked all the fun out of it for me. My original point was that if someone thinks racing 1200's prepares you for an AMA superbike race, I think they are wrong." Have you seen some of the crashes in DSB/American Sport Bike? Just this weekend the red flag came out cause a rider went down - the last thing on Speed before the commercial break was him lying face down in the gravel. I didnt know what'd happened to him, looked bad. So did that kill American Sport Bike class for you too? There are bad wrecks in all classes, its racing, stuff happens. | ||
| Dannybuell |
I thought the 1190's rear tire was the big problem. | ||
| Ohsoslow |
I thought the 1190's rear tire was the big problem. a lot of it was due to the extra weight | ||
| Reepicheep |
I didn't see the crash you were talking about on Speed Channel... I was sitting at that corner with my three kids, quietly praying for the guy (Chris Paris). It looked like a broken leg or broken pelvis to me, he was moving fine, just in a lot of pain. I suspect the racers do it because they are already there, and they are already done with their "real race", so they can sneak back out for another 30 minutes and maybe walk away with $10,000. The race teams probably do it because the entry costs are low (spec series, not a lot of resources needed, and they already are bringing a truck there anyway). The XR1200 is there because it is the least lame motorcycle Harley could bring to a race track. I don't mind the down on power bit, I'd enjoy watching a 250 class. Its the corner clearance / sytling over function parts taht make me uncomfortable, especially after seeing the frequency and types of crashes in the series... there seems to be a lot more high sides and tank slappers rather than the typical AMA sportbike / superbike / Daytona sportbike low side into the gravel. Like I said, I thought it was an OK idea when I first heard about it, spec class racing has a lot of potential. But having seen one in person, it didn't hold my attention, and since then I have seen a lot of anectodotal carnage. (I could be totally wrong, this isn't objective information, just my own "geesh, another one?" observations over the last two years). | ||
| Court |
One of those fun times when "kinda everybody is a little bit right". Figure roughly $15,000 - $25,000 a day for testing. Some folks will have problems getting their hands about that. It's not that they are wrong, just that they fail to think in terms of business. I told someone once roughly what a weekend of racing cost and their reply was "hell, my cousin races and he doesn't spend near that". He of course was right. And . . if his cousin had to leave Mid-Ohio and be sitting at Laguna Seca 72 hours later his cousin would not have had to worry about overtime, employee benefits, the DOT, Federal Motor Carrier Regs and so forth. In additon, as a post refered to, there is the opportunity cost of what you DON'T do to provide resources for the test. A "test" requires not only the track (cheapest element by far) and insurance but, if you hope to get any information, an entire complement of data acquisition logging and capture suite, engineers and support staff. In a way . . racing may be the cheapest form of testing. E-B-R has been handicapped by waiting on 111 NEW vendors as 469 new parts were made . . it's not like they had a bike to test back last October through March . . remember, back when it was -29oF in Wisconsin? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah . . . I hadn't thought of that.  | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I believe the racers running the 1200 are in it for the money. I think it's for add'l exposure. Finding rides is tough right now. For those who are only riding in the XR Series, it's a way to hang on. For those with a current ride, maybe it's some add'l track time and exposure. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Race on Sunday, sell on Monday. Same old thing. It just might get HD fans into the dealership. Its the same as all mfgr's (to make money) except their owner is not a true racer, first and foremost. And we have moved away from the original thread question. Too light? I believe thats the better scenario then being too heavy and trying to find handling/H.P. by lightening somewhere. Our guys just need more track time to find the best place to add that ridiculous 25#. Should only be 10# if at all. Maybe AMA/NASCAR thought the 1190 would be too dominant right from the git go. Again IMHO its NASCAR's influence trying to make every thing more equal like with the cars. When Geoff and Michael Tjon find the right place to put the weight, LOOK OUT! | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
bob - its not just the 1125, its twins, ANY twin has a minimum weight limit Only a fool would think the 1190 would dominate from the 'git go' as you stated. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'm guessing the original 25# rule was aimed at a potential Ducati entry, not at E-B-R or Buell. | ||
| Imonabuss |
It's not a 25# rule. The twins need to be 380# and multis 370#. It definitely is an old rule dating back to Ducati. The 1190RS apparently weighs 355# ready to race, if it needed 25# to get it up to AMA minimum weight. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Imonabuss said: "It's not a 25# rule. The twins need to be 380# and multis 370#. It definitely is an old rule dating back to Ducati." "The 1190RS apparently weighs 355# ready to race, if it needed 25# to get it up to AMA minimum weight." I have to agree on that statement but wonder how the AMA arrives at that if they, in fact try to even things out competitively. I.E., If you consider power to weight ratio and not cc displacement to weight ratio they should have made the inlines, with more H.P. add weight. Seems wrong to me. Where am I going wrong? | ||
| Gunut75 |
The 1190RS apparently weighs 355# ready to race Wow that's light! | ||
| Court |
>>>The 1190RS apparently weighs 355# ready to race Major manufacturers have been trying to do that for years . . cool to know it's possible. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
I had mentioned previously: "Our guys just need more track time to find the best place to add that ridiculous 25#. Should only be 10# if at all." Maybe Erik agrees with that, today he said on Facebook fanpage: "Everything looks great after the race. Hope to do a little testing prior to Laguna to try some chassis set up stuff, including moving the weight around, which should help a bit. The AMA weekends are very busy, so no time to do anything but fine tuning." We really do have some of the best people in racing working toward getting us right up there with the best in AMA racing. Erik, Geoff, Michael Tjon and all the Elves. Thanks guys, It will come. Bob | ||
| Rodrob |
"I believe the racers running the 1200 are in it for the money." What a stupid thing to say. Of course they are in it for the money. Do you race? Have you tried to raise sponsorship dollars these days? To keep racing you need to be at/on the track however you can otherwise it's out of sight, out of mind, and your done. You might not respect the class or the guys who ride in it, but I can say positively after spending the weekend at Road America with Higbee Racing on a XR1200, that the other racers and teams do. It takes mad skills to slide a 550lb beast around a road course. Is it Superbike? Of course not. But it is racing and sometimes you have to race where you can to stay in the game. | ||
| Bueller4ever |
How much does May weigh? couldn't he just lose 25lbs? | ||
| Hootowl |
Think he weighs around a buck 50. That's a tough 25 pounds to lose. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I'm just curious...do they have to have "a" 25lb weight? Or can it be split and spread out...like, say...15# over the nose to help anti-wheelie and keep weight on the nose for handling....and 10# as close to mass-center as possible? Like a lead-lined bellypan, perhaps?  However you stack it, though, Court's right. It IS damned impressive they have the total package so far down on weight. Hell of an achievement! 355? That's FIVE POUNDS LESS THAN A BLAST. | ||
| Trojan |
However you stack it, though, Court's right. It IS damned impressive they have the total package so far down on weight. Hell of an achievement! 355? That's FIVE POUNDS LESS THAN A BLAST. You do have to remember though that the 1190 starts life as a $40,000 hand built bike dripping with the best components available (and we are told that this is built at a loss so should cost more!), so already has a head start of 'production' Superbike that need to have a LOT of work done to get them into race ready form. There has been a lot of talk here about KTM spending thousands on their race bikes, but then they start life as $16000 bikes not $40000 ones don't they? KTM also have exactly the same weight penalty as E.B.R and other twin cylinder machines, so it isn't a problem that is specific to the 1190. So yes it is a great achievement to build a light bike, but I'm pretty sure that Ducati could build a 355lb bike pretty easily of they wanted to sell them at $40000 each (NCR & Bimota already do). NCR Millona (air cooled 110 Ducati) 116bhp/275lb NCR M16 (Ducati DD engine) 200+bhp/319lbs in road trim Bimota DB7 (1198 engine) 170bhp/415lbs in full road trim inc pillion seat etc. Vyrus 985 (1098 engine) 155bhp/346lbs in road trim. These are all exclusive hand built bikes and apart from the more expensive M16 are priced around the same as the 1190. (Message edited by trojan on July 15, 2011) | ||
| Court |
Wow | ||
| Reepicheep |
Huh? Who's to say the 1190 doesn't start life as a $14,000 street bike, not announced or released yet, to be built up to the $40k 1190 RS? And I guess I don't see the difference anyway, except perhaps you are saying that a high performance KTM is an afterthought, while the 1190 has racing baked in from the get go. I drooled all over the 1190RS for close to an hour up close and in person... I saw some very tasty bits all over it, absolute premium parts used very wisely. But the weight savings weren't mainly from exotic and expensive materials, it was from the core design and engineering. I lifted a naked 1190 rear wheel unbelievably easily with my pinkie. I'd guess 80% of the weight reduction I felt came from the structure and design of the wheel, and 20% (if even that) came from the fact that it was magnesium alloy instead of aluminum alloy. And more importantly, I bet switching from magnesium to aluminum would bring back 20% of the weight, but drop the cost by 60% to 80% (meaning the cost goes down by 75% but the weight only goes up by 20%). Unlike bikes that achieve great weight reduction by exotic materials or impossible to mass produce parts, which gain all their weight back when the materials and techniques are changed to something affordable. To your second point, does the KTM have to add weight to reach the minimum weight? If so, agreed, they have the same weight penalty. If KTM is too heavy to hit the minimum already, then it's no penalty at all for them, as they couldn't reach it anyway. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"Huh? Who's to say the 1190 doesn't start life as a $14,000 street bike, not announced or released yet, to be built up to the $40k 1190 RS? And I guess I don't see the difference anyway, except perhaps you are saying that a high performance KTM is an afterthought, while the 1190 has racing baked in from the get go. " wow.... well I think it'd be VERY safe to say that the 1190RS did NOT start as a 14k road bike cause, well, ExBxR doesnt HAVE a 14k roadbike. And yes, it does have racing 'backed in from the get go" thats been known for a while as they built it to compete in American Sport Bike, their mission for this bike from the start. | ||
| Noone1569 |
"wow.... well I think it'd be VERY safe to say that the 1190RS did NOT start as a 14k road bike cause, well, ExBxR doesnt HAVE a 14k roadbike." A certain professional racer that happens to ride an 1190RS told me something very, very different than what you stated when I was at Mid-Ohio this past weekend I promised to keep my mouth shut though! |
