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Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 10:39 am: | 
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From a racing standpoint, I'm guessing it is easier to add good electronics to a bike with good physics, then it is to add good physics to a bike with good electronics.
If you are suggesting that the KTM RC8R does not have good physics to start with then you are very much mistaken! For a company that had never built a sports bike in its history to come up with the RC8 as its first atempt is not only good but pretty astounding.
KTM were a small company building off road bikes until a very few years ago. They only really started after bankrupcy at about the same time as Erik Buell started building bikes. Their very first road bike was the superb 990 Super Duke and the RC8 their first foray into the superbike world.
The mechanical traction of the E B R is miles ahead of the KTM, it is just the better constructed motorcycle.
The KTM RC8 road bike costs less than a third of the price of the 1190RS. What do you expect. If KTM built an RC8R road bike to sell for US$40,000 do you think it wouldn't be covered in exotic materials the same as the 1190RS? |
S21125r
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 12:12 pm: |
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Troj,
The RC8 that you can buy for "a third of the price" is not the one being raced against the 1190 so not sure what your point was there in comparing them. A fairer comparison would be the RC8R vs the 1190RS or the RC8 vs the future 1190 "everyman's bike".
Not speaking for Jens, but I think his point was that mechanical traction benefits of the 1190 are part of the core architecture and will translate easily to most any price point (you still get what you pay for though...). On the other hand trying to shore up a less than perfect architecture after the fact could become very expensive via racing farkles - and certainly not the type of farkles that you translate back to the rest of the breed very easily/cheaply. |
Jens
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 01:41 pm: |
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The stock RC8 frame is a piece of crap. Even from 30ft distance you notice the bad welding under the thick powdercoating. The stock geometry is a disaster, overlay pics of the IDM bikes and the stock bikes and you learn that they are total different, and still you need electronic help to make them going good laptimes.
Have no experience building sportbikeframes? We are talking about the same KTM Company that was competing for 7 years in Moto GP 125 roadracing? And have also a 990cc GP adventure under the belt???
Ok, 22 victories in 7 years, 46 podiums, 19 poles and 1 constructers championship is not too much for the money KTM burned in GP, but to say they have no idea how to build a chassis, sounds funny.
40 grands explain that the traction of the Erik Buell Racing is so much better? There was not much Erik got easy when building the 1190 I think, but mechanical traction is in the genes of all Buells, the 1190 is just the logical result an evolution step of more than 25 years of experience.
There is a huge discussion in Germany about the considerable advantages KTM claim they need to get, to be competetive, before they sign into the IDM in 2008. The importerpool agreed, so they need to live with it now. Thats fair enough.
I am not against balance of performance arrangements, it could be a good thing in motorsport to let compete different concepts in the same race. As an example lower weightlimits for bikes without TC.
Because I agree 100% with Erik, good constructed bikes donīt need electronic to go fast (-: |
Buellmojo
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 02:00 pm: |
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Off topic a bit, but I looked at a 2011 Triumph Speed Triple and the welds on it were amazing, just thought I would mention...Sorry, carry on!
(Message edited by buellmojo on July 21, 2011) |
Mountainstorm
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 02:01 pm: |
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Hard to believe Erik is 61. I hope I have that same drive 11 years from now. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 04:11 pm: |
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Matt,
I think Jens just pwned you. I mean really, claiming that KTM has no racing or sport bike experience?
What Bill (Reepicheep) said.
Owens,
>>> Truth is, none of us know.
Jens seems to have a very well-educated understanding of the issue; the team manager states that the MM electronics are very important for them and that they needed help to get them setup. Good enough for me. |
Hybridmomentspass
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 10:41 pm: |
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Blake - cool, they are using MM electronics, but they didnt tell us how much they spent on it yet people say its upwards of $100k |
Trojan
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 05:43 am: |
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I think Jens just pwned you. I mean really, claiming that KTM has no racing or sport bike experience?
That is NOT what I claimed. I said that the KTM's first road sports bike was the RC8, and their first road bike the Superduke. I never mentioned racing, but event hen racing a 125 or 250 2 stroke is a bit different to a Superbike.
If we are talking about race experience maybe we should then also factor in the years of race experience that Erik Buell and his crew have?
My point was and remains this. People are comparing two bikes built with competely different ethos and background here. The 1190RS is a great bike but is a $40,000+ exotic machine that has been put together by hand using top spec materials etc. It has been built specifically as a race bike with lights, so getting ti race prepared should be easy.
The KTM RC8 is a mass produced sports bike costing $16000 approx. If you want to race one then of course you are going to have to make big changes in the same way you would with a Jap or Italian road bike.
If you want to compare apples to apples then maybe we should be lookingto compare the 1190RS to a Bimota, Vyrus or other hand made bike than to a mass produced machine.
the team manager states that the MM electronics are very important for them and that they needed help to get them setup.
When it comes to racing, teams will do whatever they can do within the rules to make their bike competitive. That isn't cheating, it is part of racing. If you race in this class you cannot complain when people turn up in big trucks and spend a lot of money on electronics etc.
Jens,
remind me how the RC8R is doing in IDM Superbikes this season? Not bad for a pile fo crap  |
Elvis
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 06:55 am: |
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What Erik Buell Racing did two weeks ago was a great achievement no matter how you look at it. For the first time EVER, a road-legal US Superbike exists.
That bike was made by a tiny company that didn't exist a year and a half ago and incorporates radical technology that represents real change in a field of superbikes that seemed to illustrate that manufacturers had to always do things the way they've been done.
That bike finished in the top ten of a major national road-racing series its first time out.
NOTHING remotely comparable to that has ever happened in the history of motorcycling.
Oh, and by the way, not only has that bike been getting rave reviews, but it just took a major award from one of the largest motorcycle publications in the world.
Anyone who would rather quibble over meaningless details rather than enjoy the historical nature of what is happening, should step back and ask themselves why they can't simply celebrate an achievement that any rational, objective person would find wonderfully inspiring. |
Jens
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 07:33 am: |
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>Jens, remind me how the RC8R is doing in IDM Superbikes this season? Not bad for a pile fo crap<
Matt, thats the point, these IDM bikes are amazing good racebikes, including a good welding job on the frames. (-: I have all respect what KTM and Martin Bauer is gettin out of this RC8, absolute great job!
But PLEASE! I am gettin real mad about that 20.000 dollar pricetag story. It takes at least 10 times more to build a bike like that. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 08:02 am: |
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But PLEASE! I am gettin real mad about that 20.000 dollar pricetag story. It takes at least 10 times more to build a bike like that.
But that is EXACTLY the point. It doesn't matter how much it costs to build a race bike, and very few Superbikes have much in common with their road based brother.
What I am saying is that if you compare the BASE models that these race bikes are built from then the 1190 RS starts from a much better place than most mass produced superbikes and therefore should not need to have so much spent on it to make it competitive.
If the rules allow you to change the bike then of course teams will do everything possible to tomake their bike competitive.
It is no good saying that 'that bike beat ours becaue they spent more money' because that is the name of the game. I'm pretty sure you must have spent a lot of money over and above the purchase price of your race bike to get it racing too, and so does every professional team.
If E.B.R want to be competitive in AMA Superbike they will probably have to do the same. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 08:50 am: |
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I agree that the folks at Erik Buell Racing made history 2 weeks ago.
Few folks, laboring under the misconception that somehow Erik Buell Racing is secretly funded by "Harley's millions" and forget that the building, the dealings with 111 NEW vendors, the 30+ folks making drawings, machining parts, laying up carbon fiber and shoveling the snow are paid from what is essentially the Buell's retirement fund.
I marvel at the confidence and resolve it takes to literally "bet the farm" . . . I mean everything you have on a project that (you've seen how folks treat even the slightest hint of failure) you MUST get right.
Folks have commented, in a variety of print and online venues, what will happen if "Buell has more recalls". Imagine if that 1190RS had suffered a DNF in it's first outing.
The "fairy tale story" was fun . .. I confess to secretly harboring that glint of something aligning and Geoff being on the podium . . a regular racegasm.
But to take a handful of folks, in a small space, design 469 parts, try to coordinate 111 vendors (you're gonna gasp when you hear some of the stories . . think "nuclear disaster") and to work under the deadlines of both the AMA, the DOT, NHTSA and those de facto deadlines, the expectations of owners and a skeptical media . . is nothing short of amazing.
Erik Buell Racing will have to do a LOT of things to continually up their game in the AMA. And . . . any of you willing to cash in your entire 401(K), mortgage your farm and send all the funds are welcome to step up . . . send me the $2,000,000 and I'll get you hooked up.
Seriously . . . . it is not only very cool . . .but it's a refreshing reminder of some of elements of innovation, creativity, resolve and drive that once made American manufacturing the hallmark admired by the world.
I hope Erik Buell Racing and the Elves continue to put meaning back into "Made in America". Very cool, by the way, it is really neat to see so much support coming from the Italians and Brazilians.
Court |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 09:06 am: |
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Well Trojan, if spending is the significant point, why don't we skip the motorcycle bit all together, and just have the manufactures sit around a fire taking turns burning $100 euro bills until only one company is left. Whoever is left, we can declare them the best bike builder in the world.
Maybe that's the dream of a European series, but here in the US we would rather root for a passionate and talented small group making a bike anyone could buy and race, without first having to kowtow to some European or Japanese corporate aristocracy.
(Message edited by reepicheep on July 22, 2011) |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 09:20 am: |
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As evidenced last year . . . when Geoff May passed a fellow the passed riders entire crew stood up and started cheering. . . the lure is powerful as Erik Buell Racing and a small group of passionate enthusiast go to play with those well funded Europeans.
Can't wait to watch Laguna Seca this weekend . . . and see how the Erik Buell Racing does against that "all the $$$" you can stuff into a frame and haul in a $300,000 truck . . . bike. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2011 - 05:59 am: |
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Maybe that's the dream of a European series, but here in the US we would rather root for a passionate and talented small group making a bike anyone could buy and race, without first having to kowtow to some European or Japanese corporate aristocracy.
A very noble ideal indeed. However if the AMA issues rules that allow teams to spend money on electronics then that is what you have to do to win.
As for the 'making a bike anyone could buy and race' comment that is only true at the moment if you have very deep pockets. For the same price you could buy and race any contempory sportsbike.
When E.B.R release the 'affordable' 1190 models do you really think they will be able to run at the same pace as the current 1190RS race bike yet be priced at a fraction of the cost?
Of course it won't, so to make it race ready you would have to do exactly what you have to do to a Suzuki/Honda/Troumph/KTM, and that is spend more money on it. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2011 - 08:37 am: |
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Given my riding skills, I could run out at the same pace as the current race bikes....
(Err... If they were riding on the track, and I was dropped out of an airplane). |
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