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Dirty_john
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 02:41 am: | 
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I personally wish Erik Buell Racing well and fully appreciate that it is HD that bear the liability to sort out issues like the stator failure and the clutch slave cyl issue. But let us be realistic, HD couldn't give a hoot about Buell owners and would be more than happy for us all to crawl under a rock and die - that is why although I own a Fat Bob as well as the 1125R I will never buy another bike from HD so they have lost me as a long term customer.
But neither will I buy an 1190 on the basis that I cant trust that the issues with the 1125 are solved with the 1190, even though it is an uprated design of the original, also due to be being in the UK where there are already issues with getting hold of parts in reasonable timescales - so my 1125R is to become a track bike where it wouldn't matter so much if the stator and/or slave cyl fail as it will not spoil a weekend ride out thus I collect a new BMW S1000RR this weekend, your financial loss HD so be it. |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 06:42 am: |
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>>>there is NOTHING stopping EBaRRR or any other company from making aftermarket parts for the 1125
That of course is patently inaccurate.
There are reams of documents preventing, and providing huge consequences, Erik Buell from personally or in association with anyone, from speaking about, servicing, selling or generally meddling in anything having to do with Buell Motorcycle Company which is wholly owned by Hardley-Davidson.
There was a period where they were allowed, again by an imposing written agreement, to build some race bikes based on the 1125R and sell the take off parts but you;ll find nothing on the 1190RS that would fit an 1125R.
The idea that the motors are "about the same" is inaccurate.
With regard to certain things that needed addressed with the 1125R . . the folks at Buell Motorcycle were very well aware of these. In fact a number of folks stayed late, worked weekends and worked on their own time to insure that all the gathered data and the engineering efforts for the corrections were properly documents, converted from the Buell FEA software to HD's antiquated system and that everything was turned over in a "ready to take over" fashion. The people at Buell acted light years above and beyond responsibly.
There is reason to believe (some folks still can't have conversations about this) that HD essentially took that information and shelved it. I agree that Buell owners probably are not, and will not, get much notice from HD . . . who now has their own problems.
If Erik Buell, or Erik Buell Racing, were able to (legally and logistically) able to address ANY of these issues it would have BEEN properly and long ago concluded.
My bet is that if HD is letting Buell parts extinguish that undertaking engineering fixes ain't even on their radar screen.
Erik, and I think it's probably killing him, can't talk about this or even wink or nod about any of these problems without placing himself, his employees and his company at huge risk. |
Jules
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 07:48 am: |
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+1
Excellent post! |
Jrfitzny
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 07:54 am: |
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What about "anonymous"? |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 08:17 am: |
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> I've heard that before...and it's still nonsense. 5k...
No, it's not. Even the announcement from HD about the harness indicated that lower RPMs were an issue.
I think the harness kicks in below 5500 or so?
Early on when this problem first started to become widespread, Erik Buell Racing indicated they had not noticed it with the race bikes.
No track day junkie I know of with one of these bikes has the problem.
I have TENS of thousands of track and street miles on top of an '09 motor, and I've not had the issue. (not saying I won't... but haven't.)
There is something to how you ride these bikes. |
Tpoppa
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 09:01 am: |
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>>>there is NOTHING stopping EBaRRR or any other company from making aftermarket parts for the 1125
That of course is patently inaccurate.
There are reams of documents preventing, and providing huge consequences, Erik Buell from personally or in association with anyone, from speaking about, servicing, selling or generally meddling in anything having to do with Buell Motorcycle Company which is wholly owned by Hardley-Davidson.
Court, I understand that you are protective of Erik and his interests. And that makes you a good friend.
However, if Buell (the man) is sharp enough to design the 1190RS, while not infringing on IP that is currently owned by HD, why can't a better mouse trap be built to solve the stator issues?
Tons of companies make aftermaket parts for Buells & HDs. Perhaps releasing a fix under the EBaRRR name is not good for business, but there are legal ways around that.
Perhaps a solution already exists within the 1190RS... |
Tpoppa
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 09:09 am: |
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> I've heard that before...and it's still nonsense. 5k...
No, it's not. Even the announcement from HD about the harness indicated that lower RPMs were an issue.
I understand that more oil flows with higher revs. It's nonsense because it's unreasonable to think streetbike owners will/can keep revs over 5k. Perhaps you don't live near a city with traffic, but that is not the case for many 1125 owners. Most of the charging issues I have experienced have been the result of periods of idling in stop and go traffic. |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 09:59 am: |
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>>>>What about "anonymous"?
Which one? . . . there are a number of them. Please don't be lead into that thinking that "if it's anonymous it is, therefore, "official" "
Erik and the folks at Erik Buell Racing . . all 30 some of them being funded directly out of Erik's hip pocket have plenty to focus on without meddling in the affairs, legal and commercial, of Harley-Davidson.
It they did, I'm sure they'd also be going after the rear wheel bearings, the M2 speedometer, the headlights, and a host of other things where the lure of commercial viability exists for someone sharp enough to "come up with a better mousetrap".
If you think the 1190RS and the 1125R are related . . buy some 1190RS parts and try to mount them on your 1125R.
Ain't happening.
Look . . .I think it would be great to have a "Stator fix" . . I think it would be better to have the one that the folks at Buell Motorcycles were hard at work on and turned over to Harley-Davidson.
But I'm a realist and a smart guy . . smart enough to know that Harley-Davidson is the ONLY one, for at least 5 more years, who can do that.
Can you imagine the legal fur that would fly if someone, Erik Buell Racing, Victory or S&S, started making "warranty repairs" to Harley-Davidson products?
Yeeeeeeeeeeeoza
There are some folks at HD who would jump on the chance to crucify someone. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 10:06 am: |
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> buy some 1190RS parts and try to mount them on your 1125R
I did and some do.  |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 10:51 am: |
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List them.
See how many of the 896 parts you can interchange. |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 10:52 am: |
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My point is that the 1190RS and the 1125R are related in much the same way the Chevrolet Camaro and the Ford Mustang are. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 11:01 am: |
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> List them.
I'm busting your balls, Court.
But since you asked...
A lot of the parts are perfectly compatible, for example: Front and rear rotors, front and rear brake pads, front and rear brake calipers, front and rear MCs, and so on.
You can bolt on the 1190 forks, I bet, without too much trouble. Same with the shock.
The subframe more or less bolts up. A drag racer here did it and posted pictures. From the pics I've seen online, I can tell that the rectifier is relocated, but that's not moving mountains to manage -- just some longer wire and a new connector.
I'll bet those rearsets bolt up to a chain drive equipped 1125r.
So, it's not like none of the parts are interchangeable. Even the motor is probably (I don't know for sure, but it uses the same cases, so I'm a bettin' man) a direct swap and bolt up if you can get all the other parts (rads, etc.) to go along with it.
Are there too many differences between the 1190 and the 1125r to count? Sure. But, that doesn't mean the parts between them are as broadly incompatible as you have implied. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 11:32 am: |
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I have a differing opinion on what is and isn't proprietary. In our multinational economy entrepreneurs in Korea make HD clone engines, transmissions, cases. Parts of all kinds are made throughout asia especially for HD bikes. What is the difference if an 1190 stator and rotor is offered and just happens to retrofit?
Nobody is asking for a freebie warranty, just the opposite with most willing to buy a better setup. Threads about CompuFire Series regulators, MOSFET regulators, and Custom Rewind stators proves that many in this group have already looked away from HD and opened their wallets looking for a 'better way to go'. Wouldn't this type of personal fix also release HD from any further burden of warranty in that area?
(Message edited by dannybuell on July 05, 2011) |
Finedaddy1
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 12:28 pm: |
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Dannybuell - Very well put. |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 01:12 pm: |
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>>>I'm busting your balls, Court.
I know you are. And, I know there are some parts that "fit". But, the front forks as an example, some parts may "fit" (can be put on" but may be incompatible from a design and engineering standpoint.
Say . . as an example that the rake on the front end is slightly different and the fork legs are 3/8" difference.
You MAY be able to bolt that Ohlins (which, by the way did not exist prior to about 14 months ago and was developed with the folks at Ohlins USA and produced what, someday, will be one of the more amazing stories about getting the 1190RS to market) front end to an 1125R. But "mounting" it doesn't make the 1125R any better and may (this, be mindful, is hypothetical) in fact degrade the geometry and handling.
I'm just saying that there is a propensity to, since Erik Buell has been involved with both, to see the 1190RS as an evolution of the 1125R. T'aint necessarily so.
I agree that there are abundant commercial opportunities for folks. I've already begun sourcing stuff for my Ulysses. I've not faith in the folks at Harley-Davidson. A sharp mind could (and perhaps is) build a business around supporting the 150,000 Buells running around the world.
It's a bit of a shame that HD has not, will not, step up to the plate and deploy a solution. I don't expect that to happen.
There are some very smart folks here and I suspect that an innovative and effective solution will appear. |
01_turbowolf
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 01:48 pm: |
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so hypothetically if the 1190rs is not an evolution of the 1125 and lets say the 1125 never existed, where would the engines come from? are 1190s not dismantled and solid rebuilt 1125 engines? the frame dimensions to surround the engine? swingarm design at the pivot point? none of it came from 1125? they might be related more than your stating, and dare i say it a complete evolution of the 1125. |
Tpoppa
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 02:14 pm: |
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It's posted on here somewhere...
When HD bought out the Rotax contract, Rotax retained rights to the 1125 motor. The 1125 Motor is still listed on the Rotax website.
http://www.rotax.com/en/Engine/2004/Motorcycle/Eng ine.Models.htm
So, why can't EBaRRR release a kit to improve the charging system on a Rotax motor that Hardley gave up the rights to? |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 02:40 pm: |
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> But "mounting" it doesn't make the 1125R any better and may (this, be mindful, is
> hypothetical) in fact degrade the geometry and handling.
Hypothetical nothing, there's a 100% chance it will change, and perhaps dramatically.
When I had the AK-Gas kits installed on my 1125r race bike, we elected to add 5mm of travel to the forks above stock. Doing so required raising the rear end to maintain the correct swing arm angle, which slightly shortened the wheelbase. Oops.
So, we continued to work with the bikes geometry to get an excellent compromise of rake, trail, swing arm angle, wheelbase and ride height. Which tires I run also makes a difference... would you believe there's no standard 180/55?
Now the bike handles 10x better than any stocker, and it's never nervous like the OEM configuration can be, but turns in easier and steers better, too.
Anything you bolt up to a bike that alters the geometry is going to require getting the chassis dialed in again. That's true for any bike. |
Sportster_mann
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 03:31 pm: |
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If HD are not willing (or able ?) to solve the problems, then I cannot see that they will use a heavy hand on anybody that can and does help, as it will be an admission of guilt and could give them more trouble than it's worth - surely it would be better for them to continue "burying their head in the sand" and let somebody else solve the problems for them ?
And as the 1190RS shares no DNA with the 1125R then I assume the 1190RR has nothing in common either ! |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 03:51 pm: |
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>>>I cannot see that they will use a heavy hand on anybody that can and does help
Welcome to the world of Harley-Davidson, I see you are new.
You should have been here during the time HD was spending millions of dollars to close down Mom & Pop stores in Wyoming doing less than $10k a year selling key chains with a bar and shield.
The 1190RS and the 1190RR are quite different bikes. I'd describe the 1190RR as the early prototype before things started having to be made in commercial quantities, to commercial standards by a variety of outside vendors. There was never any thought of the 1190RR being sold commercially or produced in number . that I am aware of. |
Ezblast
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 04:26 pm: |
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Concur with both of Courts above posts!
EZ
(Message edited by ezblast on July 05, 2011) |
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