| Author | Message | ||
     Lemonchili_x1 |
Lol, I'm guessing there's at least a page or two more in this...  | ||
| Blake |
Dr Awk, Steve probably won't be compelled to answer your derisively loaded question. I will though. >>> Weight saving aside, has the ZTL been proven to work as good as its heavier counterparts? Tough to pass fellow pro racers on the brakes if it doesn't. Tough to win races and championships if it doesn't. >>> And in your opinion, is a 3 or 4 pound weight savings a good trade off for inferior braking if that were the case? The only answer is that as long as the braking works with margin to spare, then how could it not be worth it? If the brake doesn't work as required, then no, it would not be worth it. How could it be? The follow on question is, if you encounter some challenging issues with heat dissipation on the race track, do you give up and stop developing a revolutionary new brake/wheel system that allows a significant reduction in unsprung mass? I guess a quitter would give up, but someone with vision, someone who recognizes the significant potential value/benefits of the new system, someone who is all about solving technical challenges probably will refuse to give up and instead aim ti achieve great success. See the new Erik Buell Racing 1190RS front wheel/brake for example.  (Message edited by blake on March 02, 2011) | ||
| Drawkward |
Blake, you know nothing of my motives. So don't act like you do, please. | ||
| Blake |
What is your point JD? I think we finally agree: 1. Lighter is better.  2. Compared to other state-of-the-art OEM front wheel/brake assemblies, the original ZTL wheel is not as significantly lighter today as it was 9 years ago. 3. The OEM ZTL-2 brake required modification to improve its ability to shed heat and better endure track duty. 4. The 1190RS front wheel/brake assembly is much improved for cooling capacity and significantly lighter than previous versions, thus significantly lighter than other current state-of-the-art OEM Superbike front wheel/brake assemblies. 5. Apparently in racing, brake systems of all configurations can be pushed to the limit and sometimes beyond. Some interesting quotes from Road Racing World concerning the Superbike event at Infineon last May: In spite of intermittent problems with the front brakes on his Foremost Insurance Pegram Racing Ducati 1098R (problems which have plagued him since 2009), Larry Pegram did a lap at 1:36.356 ... Can we let Steve Anderson have the last word? This rotor is the best ever, says the man who designed it -- but fortunately Geoff May will similarly attest to that, as he ran it toward the end of last season, including VIR and Barber. It's made from one piece of stainless, with deeper fins on the ID than previous finned rotors, with shallow slots instead of holes serving as the pad wiping features, with detail changes to the rotor mounting flanges to reduce weight, in 5mm thickness rather than the 6mm of recent race rotors. | ||
| Blake |
For the sake of emphasis, some of Steve's notes deserve repeating, and maybe to help get back on topic:
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| Blake |
>>> Blake, you know nothing of my motives. So don't act like you do, please. I wouldn't dream of it. I only commented on your choice of wording: "In your opinion, is a 3 or 4 pound weight savings a good trade off for inferior braking if that were the case?" Tough to argue that doesn't come across as derisive in this thread. | ||
| Jdugger |
> I think we finally agree Yes, you have come a long way! ;D  | ||
| Court |
>>>Blake, you know nothing of my motives. So don't act like you do, please. I don't either. But you are a poor communicator. Of that, I am certain. Agree or disagree, your manners are poor. Court | ||
| Dirty_john |
Enough of this mutual mud slinging lads - If the 1190RS new ZTL system is so good when are we going to be able to buy the wheel, fork bottoms, new axle, new rotor, new caliper,duct etc to allow us loyal 1125R and CR owners to fully upgrade, that is what I want to know before I consider a "standard" front end dual disc conversion. How about putting a package price together Erik Buell Racing? I am sure there would be buyers like me interested. | ||
| Blake |
$40K and it comes with the rest of an Erik Buell Racing 1190RS too! ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) The "fanboi" epithet isn't insulting unless it's true, that one is behaving like an overly enamored little boy blinded by admiration to the point of fanaticism. Otherwise, it's just a convenient means to avoid substantive discussion in favor of trying to insult those holding an opposing view. As usual, such epithets speak more of their author than of their target. | ||
| Jdugger |
> that one is behaving like an overly enamored little boy blinded by admiration to the point of fanaticism. You said it, not me. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Please refer to this earlier post: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=290431&post=2001253#POST2001253 | ||
| Drawkward |
Court, your opinion is getting less and less important to me every passing day. I have a really hard time biting my tongue when you post because I have a real abhorrence for pompous know-it-alls (that's the nicest thing I could think of). My job relies on me communicating my thoughts clearly and concisely, so don't patronize me. It's not my fault you and Blake think everyone who has a criticism of Buell is out to get you or the company. JD is right. You guys are worse than Apple fanboys...and that's really hard to do. | ||
| Dannybuell |
JD: What you like and what works may be two different things. Humility is the seed that grows into knowledge. Over the years some racers develop reputations, hard on transmissions, hard on clutches, hard on engines, hard on brakes. If you are using the same hardware as everyone else maybe it is the software, you know that part between your ears! | ||
| Blake |
Jonathan (Drawkward), You are way out of line. Take a time out and come don't back until you can be civil and polite. >>> you and Blake think everyone who has a criticism of Buell is out to get you or the company. You see Jonathan, one the key to good communication is to deal strictly with the criticism and ensuing pertinent discussion. It is beyond bizarre how some can't help but turn to outright mean-spirited derision. Erik improved the brake and Geoff May likes the brake, so I'm a fanboy? LOL! Oooookaaaaaay then. What should I say I wonder to not be considered a "fanboy" yet still express my own semi-qualified technical opinion along with other pertinent factual information concerning the issue? | ||
| Jdugger |
> If you are using the same hardware as everyone else maybe it is the software I don't doubt that for a second. And, for the record, I *like* the feel of the ZTL2 system. I know I've never said otherwise. Some guys like a brake that "bites" right up front. I don't. I like the progressive feel of the ZTL, even as others would call it "mushy". ... but I'm part of a long line of Buell racers with heat and part wear problems. It's just the nature of the brake. There are legitimate engineering trade-offs in the design. (Message edited by jdugger on March 03, 2011) | ||
| Nattyx1 |
I have loved the braking system on the street but have been seriously disappointed with it on the track. A few hard laps and a two-finger squeeze crushes my ring finger and pinky against the throttle (even when the wheel is adjusted to full-out). I installed the new Erik Buell Racing hardware kit. I've tried various pads and both the thinner race and stock rotors. The lines have been flushed and bled correctly so many times it would seem like OCD to a passerby (anybody want about half gallon of used brake fluid?) I know it's "inappropriate," but I've had plenty of trackdays on other brands... same tracks, same temps, same rider with the same ham-fisted inputs and mediocre laptimes. Only my CR has presented me these issues. I'm looking for a used radial master cylinder...we'll see if that helps.  | ||
| Dirty_john |
Nattyx1 - I fitted a Brembo RCS radial master cyl last weekend and the front brake seems much more effective, this is on the road though, my first track day of this year isn't until early April and will be the first time for the 1125R on the track. My usual track bike is a Suz 600 SRAD to which I fitted Brembo 4 pistons race calipers, pads and discs and I overhauled a 750SRAD master cyl. This is like brick wall braking and is th standard I will be seeking to achieve with my 1125R, either with the ZTL system or with with a front end swap out. | ||
| Blake |
Natty, What brake fluid are you using? | ||
| Jdugger |
Natty, Might also try the "fat back" Nissan racing pads. Drop me a PM and let's go through that system, I've been through what you are experiencing. | ||
| 99buellx1 |
FWIW I have the 2015 compound pads, and have not had any issues with braking. I'm not the hardest on the brakes, that's for sure, but I did well enough to get two 3rd place finishes at Road America with zero issues. And it is known as a pad eater track. | ||
| Nattyx1 |
"Brembo RCS radial master" great product -- Too much $ for me right now. Brake Fluid: Motul Rotor isn't glazed... Pads: Current: Lyndall Gold Line | ||
| Jdugger |
I'd try a different pad first. The cheapest of the "track acceptable" pads are the EBC Extreme Pro at about $100/set. Motul RBF600? Can you take a clear, close up pic of that rotor. I need to see two mount bolt's worth. OEM rotor? You said something about a lightweight rotor. For heat problems, that's probably a *bad* thing. | ||
| Blake |
JD, Was just watching the Craftsman Experience video featuring Erik Buell Racing on youtube. Note specifically the portion beginning at 34:40 into the show. You wagered your left testicle betting against Erik Buell Racing in favor of Honda. Erik Buell Racing 1190RS front wheel/brake Assembly: 14.9 LB Lightest current competitor front wheel/brake assembly: 21.1 LB Difference: 6.2 LB I'll accept $100 donated to the RRW air fence fund instead of your left nut. (Message edited by blake on April 11, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
Wow. That's pretty amazing. Good job Erik Buell Racing! Of course, there's lots of details missing. Do we know what bike that wheel and caliper set are from? And, of course, when comparing a $12k bike's wheel to a $40k bike's wheel, one does expect it to be lighter. I'll tell you what. I'll let you have the nut. After watching my grandfather steer cattle, I'd say the knife method is the way to go. I'm sure this won't be the first time you get on you knees and hold another man's johnson. So, looking back at it all, on an argument that started about heat in the brake system, that you morphed into a discussion about unsprung weight, that you then morphed into a discussion of the front wheel only, that you got converted into a discussion of the unreleased RS vs. current production bikes that you finally turned out to be right by about 3 OUNCES... Do you feel better? | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
"Lightest current competitor front wheel/brake assembly" i think that about sums up EVERY competitor which would include bikes in its class for 40k+....no one is even close to Erik Buell Racing, EPIC WIN! Jake | ||
| Fresnobuell |
So is the Erik Buell Racing wheel magnesium and the nearest competition's aluminum? Just curious. | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
well i know that the Erik Buell Racing wheel is magnesium, but not sure about the comp. wheel in the vid...was wonderin that myself, didnt the 1198r come with mags? Jake | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
I'm fairly certain the competitor wheel and brakes are from a 2010 KTM RC8R. It's certainly no standard CBR, R1, GSX-R, 1198 or S1000RR as they all have different number of wheel spokes and different wheel hub configurations where the discs bolt on. It is very similar to a 'Prila RSV4, maybe even the same wheel and it has the same 5-bolt disc pattern, but the discs are different to a road RSV4 or Factory. I've been meaning to watch the show, I will have to check it out tonight! | ||
| Blake |
>>> Wow. >>> That's pretty amazing. Good job Erik Buell Racing! A man of integrity, a man of good character would have stopped there. |
