| Author | Message | ||
     Rodrob |
Long story short... Rounded off the last head bolt today tearing down the motor. Have tried a couple of different bolt removers/extractors with no luck. Other bolts came out as expected. This sucker is really in there. So, any tricks of the trade would be appreciated. In the past I have ground a slot in the head and used a huge screwdriver with pipe wrench, but not on a head bolt. Have considered using a MIG to weld a socket to the head of the bolt. Thoughts? Ideas? | ||
| Ezblast |
A good penetrating oil, let it sit over night, maybe apply some heat - a saudering iron can work, to burn up the locktite residue - apply for a few minutes. Did you try a reverse drill bit? EZ | ||
| Ohsoslow |
i am not familiar with the space around the head bolts on these, i have never had one apart. the usual tricks i try are beating the next size down 12 point socket try metric and standard (assuming its a hex bolt). if it still wont come out with the socket idea, i would weld a nut to it instead of a socket. my biggest concern with this would be spatter all over the place. in my experience when head bolts are seized in like that it is usually a sign that coolant was getting down around the bolt | ||
| Ezblast |
Theres still the screw driver slot method - lol EZ | ||
| Kicka666 |
Go with the mig idea & fire some heat @ it mate, if you have rounded it off, good luck.. | ||
| Nuts4mc |
Irwin Bolt extractors - available at NAPA stores: http://www.irwin.com/tools/trades/mechanic/screw-b olt-extractors/bolt-extractors I race a vintage bike - spares are usually found in the junk yard - the heads on the bike I race are held to the cases with a "cap/shoulder nut" - the nuts are steel with a long shoulder,the head/cylinder are aluminum - over time corrosion sets in - best way to break it loose is heat and a 50 /50 mix of automatic tranny oil and acetone...let it soak over nite (sometimes it takes weeks in my case) - works well and it's not too much $$$ - good luck | ||
| Rodrob |
Tried the Irwins, no luck. One of the problems is that Rotax used an 12pt 11mm cap on these bolts so once they round, there is very little to get a hold of. Why they would use an 11mm head on a high torque bolt is beyond me. Now I'm thinkin that knocking one of the bolt extractors on and the brazing it on from the inside through the ratchet hole might work. (Message edited by Rodrob on March 03, 2011) (Message edited by Rodrob on March 03, 2011) | ||
| Nuts4mc |
Warning radical surgery - may ruin other parts - from old school MC wrenching: http://www.harborfreight.com/7-piece-reversible-im pact-driver-set-93481.html a hammer driver - I have an old school 1/2" drive unit - use Ohsoslows idea (weld a nut)and get a hammer impact - or cut a slot and use the hammer impact - on the 1/2" unit.... I use a 32 oz Ball peen - serious destructive force - good luck for our other viewers... 3/8" drive from sears: Craftsman Impact Driver Sears item #00947641000 $25 heat cycle it if you can over a few days - sounds like corrosion has set in ...again, good luck (Message edited by nuts4mc on March 03, 2011) | ||
| Rodrob |
I've been reluctant to bask on the thing heavily due to possible head or case damage, but i'll give my hammer impact a try with the bolt extractor. If nothing else works, I'm gonna grind the cap off the bolt and hope I don't damage the head. | ||
| Ohsoslow |
you could also try grinding flats on the sides of the cap and beat a socket on it, impact (black sockets) work better than chrome for doing this. •••••• situation man, there is no real good way to go about it | ||
| Firemanjim |
Not to be a wise guy but you used the wrong tool, it is not an 11mm it looks like a reverse torx--not sure what they are called, and was lucky we had a set here when I pulled down our guys race bike. | ||
| Nuts4mc |
live and learn: "Star Sockets" (Torx type heads) http://www.harborfreight.com/7-piece-14-and-38-dri ve-external-impact-star-socket-set-67898.html E12 size? again good luck | ||
| Rodrob |
Duh! I had a feeling I did something stoopid. But I still think it's seized in there. | ||
| Buellrider66 |
Drill a hole in the top and pound a Torx bit into it, then back out. (Very similar to a reverse drill bit) | ||
| Firemanjim |
Naw, a couple of the ones I took out were hard coming out,depends on how much heat/corrosion got to them.They don't actually have a torque spec--initial at 26 ft/lbs then 90 degrees,then 20 more degrees of rotation.But they sometimes come apart like they were torqued to 150! | ||
| Kenm123t |
Rob I weld a another bolt on top of the stuck one with a tig welder no splatter and you can control the heat. usually by the time you have welded the bolt on the corrosion bond will have broken. | ||
| Rodrob |
Well I'm not as soopid as i could have been. I used a spline socket at first which is supposed to work with star bolts. The others came out with no problem. I am on on my 3rd heat cycle and 4th set of extractors. The teeth wore out of the others. Still won't budge.  (Message edited by Rodrob on March 03, 2011) | ||
| Dennis_c |
Use a BFH on it good luck. B=big F= •••--- H= hammer | ||
| Ohsoslow |
The problem with heating the bolt is your only heating the head of the bolt which, presumably, is not where the issue is. | ||
| Kenm123t |
when you use a tig welder your heating the entire bolt works wonders on permanant lock tite and corrosion. Current flow through the bolt to the threads in the head heat the entire bolt | ||
| Reepicheep |
I had a crank nut stuck on a 1971 Kawasaki Bison (the whole thing was a huge engineering hack by Kawasaki to get a speedo on a dirt bike, long story). Anyway, I solved my problem by welding (oxy acyt) a nut to the nut, and hitting it with an impact tool. Spun the sucker right off. Wish I had done it sooner, I did other mickey mouse things to try and solve the problem that ended up costing me a cracked ring (that are very hard to find these days). | ||
| Rodrob |
The problem with heating the bolt is your only heating the head of the bolt which, presumably, is not where the issue is. Which is why I'm heating the case where the threads are. I really appreciate all the input. This is a pic of the offending bolt-  As you can see, there is not much room to get a torch in there (as well as the head being completely mangled), which is why I thought a MIG wire might go inside of a socket. But the TIG is a great idea, so maybe I could use a nut as someone suggested and get to with a TIG torch. Humm..... Of course I have neither TIG nor MIG so I guess I need to track down a welder who needs a new best friend. | ||
| Rt_performance |
The snap on or irwin twist sockets and a impact driver.( the kind you smack with a hammer) Little extra help some Valve lapping compound. Welding a nut is risky I do it all the time on exhaust manifold bolts a head bolt likely will never stick well enough. IF you in West michigan let me know i could help you out. | ||
| Jgarner99 |
If all else fails, try this: As accurately as possible, center-punch the top of the bolt head. Using carbide bits, drill a small hole (3/32" or so) right down the center of the bolt head, as straight as possible. You only need to drill as deep as the head of the bolt (refer to one of your previously-removed bolts for that distance, and use masking tape to index the bit). Step up the hole diameter with larger and larger bits, until the head pops off from atop the shoulder. After you remove the barrel and piston, you can put a pair of Vise Grips on the protruding stud, and it should back right out. Then, all you need is a new head bolt.... | ||
| Stirz007 |
Because it's down in a hole, slotting will be probably a no-go. I'd probably try the EZ-out (bolt extractor) method Jgarner suggests. The only thing I'd add is that when drilling, use the smallest bit you can get an extractor into. If you drill too far/too wide and don't leave enough wall on the bolt stem, you could just twist the bolt head off, leaving the stud in the block - at least you could get the cylinder head off, but then you may have a bolt stud stuck even further into the casting. Been there...feel your pain... good luck. | ||
| Stirz007 |
OOPs - sorry Josh (Jgarner) - I misread your post. I like your approach better (than the EZ-out) because you can control where the bolt shears off - I may try that next time. JM | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'm a hack of a self taught welder with my oxy-act rig. But from where I am looking, I'm not sure I couldn't put a nut on there, and weld it from the inside with my smallest tipped torch. I have some heat proofing paste I could fill in there to protect the head while I do it. So somebody (unlike me) that is actually a good gas welder might be able to slap a bolt on there easy. Tig would be better for sure of course, if you can get in there without accidentally welding sideways to the aluminum. Then if all that fails, you can still get a grinder in there and start the drill / easy out steps, so you don't loose anything. (Message edited by reepicheep on March 04, 2011) | ||
| Rodrob |
I think the drill might be the best idea yet. I just don't see how I could get enough torque on the thing with an easyout, but it's worth a try on the way to drilling it out. One thing I'm thinking is pounding an extractor on there again and then filling it with some JB weld so that it can't wobble when I torque on it. | ||
| Rodrob |
"Star Sockets" (Torx type heads) http://www.harborfreight.com/7-piece-14-and-38-dri ve-external-impact-star-socket-set-67898.html Harbor Freight doesn't seem to have these any more. They only had the "Spline" sockets which are supposed to work, and do fit, but apparently not perfectly. So if you find these at you local HF, buy 2 and sell me one. | ||
| Nuts4mc |
Sears has External Torx sockets: http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_009345700 00P?prdNo=3&blockNo=3&blockType=G3 thnx for the pix - I'm almost embarrassed to suggest this - based on the shape of the head ( or whats left) - you might try Sears for a "8 point" socket - it's usually used on farm equipment (farm equipment are designed with square nuts - this way a farmer just has to carry around (1)adjustable (Cresent)wrench to tighten of change "options" that run off the PTO on his tractor...I have used 8 points before working on cars but only back east where they salt the roads in winter - drive it on with a hammer and hit it with an impact wrench - if it didn't work then it time for the "gas" wrench (oxy-acetylene cutting torch)- if you can't find a socket to work -start drilling - don't over heat the bit and use oil while you drill - good luck |
