| Author | Message | ||
     Nattyx1 |
Picked this up from another thread where some guys were saying things I feel are incorrect about trail-braking. This is one of those issues about which there's far too much misinformation. Trailbraking has been vilified, misunderstood, and feared for no reason. If you can ride a motorcycle, you can trail-brake. It's not a magical technique requiring years of training and the willingness to risk throwing yourself on your head. Saying trailbraking is too dangerous is like saying guns are bad because they kill people. It's about the operational technique, right? Don't put the gun in your mouth and pull the trigger to see if it's loaded. Don't pull hard with 4 fingers on your brake lever while leaned over. DO learn to trail-brake by experimenting with tiny applications of pressure by ONE fingertip (in the same corner repeatedly if possible). Don't ADD a bunch of brake pressure during the corner. Enter at a speed slow enough that you could safely get through the corner without braking anymore at all. Then hold the lever in just a smidgen, feel the front suspension compress a tad, and hold that little bit of pressure evenly through to the apex. As you roll the throttle on, smoothly release your fingertip pressure and the throttle roll-on will automatically pull your forefinger back and off the brake lever. Feel it. Do it again and again until you FEEL what's happening with your front end/front tire compared to that same corner with zero brake pressure. Once you get that sense of the bike hunkering down a smidge, try it again with a teeny bit more pressure as you countersteer in. You'll notice how much easier it gets to turn the bike. The bike will actually require less countersteering/correction from the entrypoint to take and then hold your chosen cornering line. The bike is also now easier to reposition if you need to change the line like if passing someone or if there's a puddle or rock in the turn. And because of these and other reasons... Trail braking is actually more important/critical/useful with street bikes than race bikes. Why? because of the range of suspension travel and softness there-in. Trailbraking smoothly/gently sets the bike down and in for the corner. It prepares the bike to do the cornering work because it decreases rake and trail. It therefore allows the bike to turn in easier (reducing effort/strain and possible oversteering effects created by you as you force the thing around). A result of all this is that trailbraking effectively 'repositions' the CG (down and in) in a way that helps you hold and or tighten your cornering line. With race bikes and their stiffer setups, there's far less geegawing (that's the several inches of up/down motion through the soft middle part of the suspension's travel). So for racebikes, trailbraking is an important technique but it does not result in as big a sensory difference as what you'll feel on a street bike (especially with a longer travel front end like on a ULY or other "adventure" style bike, or a cruiser). Freddie Spencer's school championed this technique from the start. We're not talking about high speed bends or kinks here. We're talking about corners that require deceleration to safely arrive at the apex and then get back on the throttle. IF you still need to be braking past the apex, then you blew the corner -- you didn't get enough braking done early enough. I taught this at the Buell schools and elsewhere. It works. I practice it in real life. I test bikes and see how they function at corner entrances with and without trail-braking as it's a very fast and effective way to see real-world cornering performance out of the box. (Knowing lots of people [most?] seldom if ever trail-brake - it'd be dumb to always ride correctly and trail-brake and then describe how the bike handles in a general sense.) I've literally ridden cruisers around the outside of sportbike-mounted riders who thought they were going fast on tight country roads. I'm not a wizard. I was just trailbraking and getting off the inside of the bike properly which allowed me to get all the cornering performance possible out of a bike with only 40 degrees of available lean angle. They were entering corners with their suspensions unloading/popping up as they "finished their braking before the turn and then countersteered into it" as some think ought to be done. Their bikes now have more rake/trail (effectively), are harder to turn in, so they have to push harder on the bars to get it to lean. Their sensation of speed is greater because they feel like they're "falling" into the corner from a higher position. They're going slower and it's also scarier/harder work. So all their senses are correctly telling them "Careful!! It's Dangerous!!" And most likely they're thusly death-gripping the bars and oversteering. They think they're "really pushing the limit" because of their sensory experience. It's no wonder they get annoyed when this middle-aged guy rolls around the outside of em with the floorboards grinding a bit -- smiling calmly inside the open face helmet. Trust me here bro's. Do it carefully, intelligently, incrementally. The rewards are so very much worth the effort. "Racetrack" techniques make cornering on streetbikes (obviously including cruisers) safer and more fun. Two exemplary images: First - how to make a fat guy dance:  Taken at 2011 HD CVO press intro... attended for Cycle World... on a very small road in Northern California. Notice the bike is level with front suspension slightly compressed from light one-finger trailbraking. -----------------------------------------------  This shot was taken at a the Pirelli Tire 'night angel' press intro. We were testing their new performance cruiser tires on a variety of different bikes. I think I am just beginning to ease off the brake and into the throttle at this moment. | ||
| Jdugger |
Nice post. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Nice post +1. | ||
| Nukeblue |
if i go into a corner real (too) hot i suck my seat up my a$$ and trail brake like crazy! lol | ||
| Fast1075 |
Thats called "Tail Braking"  | ||
| Jules |
Nice write up. There's another reasonable on here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking | ||
| Mackja |
Your key statement "do it carefully, intelligently, and incrementally is crucial. Many things can influence what happens when trail braking, body position is most important, putting to much weight off and over the front tire, excessive lean angle decelerating and braking all at the same time can be a combination for disaster. The front tire contact patch is not much. Having washed out the front end before for just those reasons, I can concur with your statement 100%. | ||
| Skntpig |
Trail braking is about as "dangerous" as getting on the gas coming out of a corner before your bike is straight up and down. Less brake as lean increases...Apex...Slowly increase throttle from full lean to full throttle once the bike is closer to straight up. Smooth linear transitions are the key. | ||
| Blake |
If all you are doing is not much more than wiping the dust from the rotor, covering the brake lever with very little pressure, then never-mind. That's not braking. However, if you need to actually brake while leaned over in a turn on public roads, you are taking undue risk, and are being reckless. It's not just you out there. Oncoming traffic is a huge factor. Take the aggressive riding to the track and trail brake your heart out; you'll not risk losing the front on an unexpected patch of dirt, gravel, tar, ice, oil, water, or other debris, and if you do, you won't be pushed into oncoming traffic or dangerous obstacle along the side of the road, or off a cliff. If you find yourself unintentionally entering a turn too fast, then fine, absolutely trail brake to get your whoa on. Other than that, it just isn't a smart way to ride on public roads. I agree that it is a VERY good skill to learn though. Just one best practiced on a track if possible. | ||
| Blake |
I can't disagree more strongly with the idea that trail braking makes for smoother cornering on a street bike on public roads. I'm a huge advocate of riding "the pace", no aggressive braking coming into corners, getting the speed down appropriately well before turn-in. The most settled a motorcycle can be as it enters a turn is for both front and rear suspension to gradually compress with increasing lean angle. A bike that become easier to hold in the turn as the front brake as actuated is a bike that will give you ZERO warning prior to losing the front. Ask Valentino Rossi or Ben Spies. They rely on some pressure to tell them that the front tire is still gripping, when the bars suddenly turn-in and/or effort decreases, that is the warning that the front is about to go. If a bike will hold the line in a turn with little to no pressure on the bars, their is no way of knowing the level of front grip. That is one thing that every aggressive street and track rider ought to know and one reason we all should appreciate how Erik setup his motorcycles. They all communicate front grip very well. Some riders don't like the effort required to hold the bikes in the turn. They don't know what Ben Spies knows.  (Message edited by blake on January 06, 2011) | ||
| Nattyx1 |
Will anyone be served by me spending the time to do a point by point rebuttal to what was posted above? Or can you already imagine what I'd say? I really should be working... | ||
| Blake |
>>> With race bikes and their stiffer setups, there's far less geegawing (that's the several inches of up/down motion through the soft middle part of the suspension's travel). Not in my experience. I've never come close to using the full travel of my street bike suspension on a smooth road. Much of that travel is reserved to handle unforseen bumps in the road. On the track with the race bike, virtually all gets used, even lacking any major bumps. You're not trail braking in the middle of an "S" turn anyway, are you? | ||
| Blake |
I appreciate your comments Steve. And we agree that everyone should try to learn to brake effectively in a turn. We just disagree on when it is best employed and to what benefit. Keith Code's doctrine of limiting workload to maximize control and attentiveness sure hits home with me. Adding one more task to the list while riding on public roads steals our attention from others. I'd rather just slow down a bit and ride the pace. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Trail braking is about as "dangerous" as getting on the gas coming out of a corner before your bike is straight up and down. That's a valid point, but not exactly equivalent. As the rear tire loses grip the rear of the bike drifts out. The rear slide is much more forgiving for most folks than losing the front. A rear slide has a tendency to self-correct, not so much on the front. Rear tire is much bigger, offers more contact, thus is more forgiving. Plus as we exit a turn, we can better see the road ahead as we are already slowed down and looking to straighter roadway versus traveling faster while facing a less visible tarmac. I don't know too many who would choose losing the front over the rear on a public road. | ||
| Rodrob |
Now this is a really interesting discussion! There are sooooo many subtleties when it comes to braking and throttle control when cornering. It's great to hear different perspectives. Let's not let this degrade into a personal battle, cause I would really like to hear what everyone has to say on the subject and why. My experience is to get as much hard braking done prior to turn in as possible, flick it over as quickly and as late as possible and get on the throttle as soon as possible. For me this maximizes weight distribution in the corner, putting most of the weight on the rear which is doing most of the steering and has the larger contact patch and minimizes lean angle for maximum traction. The exception to this for me is when I am trying to protect the inside line. A slower turn in with gradual trail braking puts me in a lower corner entry line and a positional advantage at the cost of overall speed at the apex and less drive out of the turn. But sometimes position is more important than speed. That being said, I don't find the need to employ much trail braking on the street, since I don't race on the street. But it is definitely a valuable arrow to have in your quiver. I've used it a few times to avoid the danger of an inexperienced rider in front of me. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Skntpig - +1. Blake - +1. Rodrob - +1. Riding on unfamiliar roads or with unfamiliar riders can still give you situations where you end up moving out of your comfort zone and end up doing more to make the bike turn. If you make a practice of using all of the bikes tools they will work better when you really need them. | ||
| Blake |
Dannybuell - +3. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Nattyx1 |
Dannybuell +4 | ||
| Slaughter |
I think everybody is always looking for an "if I do XXX then everything works out" Most people involved in teaching complex tasks know it takes about 20 PERFECT repetitions to anchor the actions in your brain and reflexes/responses. Can't happen the first time out. Probably won't happen the tenth time. Try it - and try it at a COMFORTABLE pace, then try it again... and again DOZENS of times. Don't think of trailbraking as some skill you can "get" by reading a few paragraphs. As Steve described, it is a skill SET... and it works well once learned. (cool discussion starter) (Message edited by slaughter on January 06, 2011) | ||
| Nattyx1 |
Maybe a stricter definition of terms is in order? Can we agree on the definition: First what it isn't: It's not something you use when you're on the gas like in fast flowing Esses. It's not something you do when you're just putting around. It is a the right technique for any corner where there's a significant difference between a rider's corner approach speed and the "right/safe" speed at the apex (mid-corner). I don't have a percentage handy. What do you think it should be? Some fairly wide range like maybe a 20-99% differential? Trail-braking is the gradual trailing OFF of braking pressure as you approach the apex. It allows for a smooth, seamless transition from brakes to throttle. The rider is always in control -- the bike is never coasting without input from brakes or throttle. This is a good thing in that as control components they are no less critical than steering - and in fact, like steering, they AFFECT direction in different ways depending on how/when applied. Trailbraking involves more pressure than brushing dust off rotors. And of course it's less than locking the front tire and causing skids/slides and crashes. So say you're headed into a flat 90 degree left. Let's say you've judged the safe speed at the corner's tightest point (the apex) will be 30mph. (By the way, unless you're just crawling around, the techniques here don't 'care' if the speeds are low like this or 4x faster -- it's a matter of degree and duration, not whether or not). Sure you can approach the corner at 50. Get all your braking done and enter the corner at 35. Coast down to the apex and simply by leaning over and turning, the angular momentum fighting your side grip will scrub a bit of speed and get you to your "safe" max cornering speed so when you reach the apex you can start smoothly applying the power. Absolutely safe, fine, no worries. Right? You can also ride so slowly and make all your inputs so gradual and delicate that you NEVER perceive any suspension movement at all. Again, totally do-able. I've gotten stuck behind people doing this. I've been forced to ride like this around Sturgis on roads where the speed limit could safely have been set at 60 but was at 35 so they could write bushels of tickets. You'll get where you're going. You're not gonna "push" the front end. You'd also be better off in a motorhome because at least then you could nap waiting for the next apex.  Conversely, I'm not talking about being a jackass and racing about at full-on roadrace speeds on the street. I AM talking about brisk, enjoyable, inside-a-safe-envelope sport bike pace. As an aside, we all know that the actual mph numbers here are wholly dependent on all the usual 100percent subjective variables (bike type, tire type and condition, road surface, ambient conditions, your particular mood, etc. It's an endless list that contributes to making one man's "fast" is another guy's "ho-hum."). But relative to any rider's needs and abilities, trail-braking is a great tool that should be learned and employed in the corners where appropriate. Also by definition, you can't "add" it if you're already in a corner (I think someone suggested something like this above). That's "braking," not trail-braking. Braking like that is patterned like: on, off, on = front end dive, rise, dive = contact patch grows, shrinks, grows = chassis geometry shortens, lengthens, shortens. Trailbraking is part of that perfectly fluid process that takes you from go to slow to go. It's like warm 90-weight poured slowly from a beaker. It's applying the brakes firmly while the bike is upright and then as you begin to bend her in they're on progressively less... soon just a teensybit on...to hardly any on... to brakes off and gas on a just a bit... to gas on more... to gas on a lot. These aren't gross steps of course... just 'marker' points on perfectly smooth actuation curves. You're trailing off the brakes and easing on the throttle. We could just as accurately describe it as EASING off the brakes all the way to the apex and then EASING ON the throttle in one smooth slightly overlapping hand movement. Would you feel safer doing it if it was called "ease-braking"? Or maybe "input-flowing?" The "pace" Blake refers to can be a fun and smart way to ride as it's an interesting challenge to ride below the level where you need to apply the brakes. It was designed to give sportriders a way to have fun challenging themselves on public roads without approaching the limits of the bikes, since so many squids were all about rushing up to the corner, scaring the crap out of themselves, braking clumsily, perhaps crashing, perhaps making it through and then doing it all over again with too much gas too soon. It wasn't designed as the perfect or best or correct way to control a motorcycle. It was just a thoughtful way to make riding at sane speeds sufficiently fun in the hope that it would keep more riders alive and off the Actuary's lists. So given all that, is it ironic that Nick Ienatsch who first applied the phrase "The Pace" in this context in his seminal op-ed piece, later became Freddie Spencer's lead instructor and the Number One proponent of trail-braking as a SAFETY technique - not simply a sport/performance technique? I don't think so. It seems to me he saw misapplication of the brakes as the symptom, but power/throttle was the disease. Easy fix for that one problem-- pretend you don't have brakes and it will make you ride slower. Better fix -- grow up, don't be an idiot, learn to use the tools available to their maximum potential and win the physics battle. Parallel this with my gun analogy at the top of the thread. Apply "the pace" solution to gun handling, and you end up with something like,"remove the firing pin." It's an effective way to handle the problem safely if there are children around that gun, that day. But include trailbraking in the overall pro-level skill set of a serious adult motorcyclist, and to beat the gun metaphor, it wouldn't matter if you were handed a squirtgun or a blunderbuss or a Desert Eagle with explosive dumdum rounds. No need to be treated like a child. So like Nick and Freddie and plenty of others, I see TB as nothing more than one more "right" thing we should be doing as part of making our two-wheeled gyros do our bidding. It's an elegant solution to a complicated problem. I see it as a component of smooth riding, where brake actuation is done to control not just speed but chassis movement, just as smooth/gradual throttle actuation is done not just to increase speed but to help "end" the turn. "What," you say? "That's not right..." Well.. it is. Of course, if you give 'er too much fuel too soon, the rear steps out. But if you roll the throttle on gradually/smoothly, the bike does what? It'll tend to straighten out and stand up for exactly the (opposite) reason why trailbraking helps you turn. The bike LIFTS when you accelerate, your steering geometry changes again and you effectively have more rake/trail. This is fine now because the turn is over, the road ahead is straight till the next corner entrance and you and your machine are accelerating out of lean and toward the top center of the tires. Throttle helps steer the bike out of the turn in this way. Just as trailbraking helps steer it into the turn. And none of it is dangerous if done well. And we're all capable of doing it well. I can't let this one go either. Sorry. Trailbraking won't cause you to get less warning of a slide than not trailbraking. Your bike might be different, but my CR doesn't have a red light that goes on telling me I'm imminently close to a lowside crash because the tires are about to let go. The tires are gripping or not. They are either sliding or not. You're either going too fast for your available traction at a given lean angle or you're not. Trailbraking doesn't remove traction. BRAKING can instantly diminish traction just like a hard steering input would, or dragging some hardparts on the pavement could, or riding across banana peels would. Trailbraking actually enhances the traction you have because the net effect of a shortened front end allows the bike to turn in quicker and use less lean angle at a given speed and corner radius. (ESPECIALLY when you lean off the inside of the bike in the corner - which everyone should do.) It thereby actually increases your margin of error. Someone did the math here for me once and I couldn't replicate it if you paid me. But a bike with a longer wheelbase and more rake/trail needs more lean angle to maintain the same speed on the same line in given corner than a bike with a shorter wheelbase and less rake/trail. Less lean angle is safer because (among other reasons) you're farther from the edge of the tire, farther from where your peg or boot tip are gonna contact the ground, and therefore you have that extra bit in reserve if something unexpected happens. Is it possible to make a mistake and squeeze the lever a bit too hard when trailing in, and cause front end to push? Sure. Is it also possible to lowside without touching the brakes? Sure. Are there a million ways to crash a motorcycle. Unfortunately yes. But here I feel like controlling the front end movement with the brake lever while also scrubbing speed toward the apex removes some variables instead of adding them. It's always possible to release some or all of that brake pressure by lifting the finger if that's what's needed as you're working on your skill. On the other hand, when you get good at trailbraking and then try to corner fast without it, you'll find it can actually be SCARY to coast to an apex and then get on the gas. The throttle-on feels too abrupt especially with efi bikes compared with the smoother actuation that comes from the inevitable slight .01 second overlap from braketrail-off to throttle roll on... and you feel kind of lost in space/out of control on the way toward the apex. This is related to the idea about not giving the front tire "too much to do." Again, sure it's possible in many situations to do things that take the traction you have and make it go away. Any abrupt input is bad for motorcycle control - its worse when the bike is leaned over. Hard braking is one of those things. But the idea that trail-braking as defined is a component of this is wrong. Think of cornering hard in uphill vs. downhill situations. Ok? So imagine one corner, dead flat in terms of camber but a relatively steep incline of like 6 or 8 degrees. Alp d'Huez sort of thing... ok? So the question to you anti-trailbrakers is: in which direction do you feel more confident, in control and like it's easier to hold the bike online? On the way uphill, gravity does your trailbraking for you as you roll off the throttle near or at the apex. The bike squats as the front tire pushes INTO the road surface; it's not just rolling along the top of it. Uphill turns are FUN because they're easier. Downhill turns - the bike feels like it wants to go straight and run away from you. And it's not simply gravity pulling you along now (you're only getting a little "boost" to your overall speed here from that). It's because the road is falling away from the front tire in a fashion similar to a steeply off-camber turn, lengthening the front end, extending your rake/trail, and making the contact patch smaller. Trail-braking isn't just for racing. The back tire doesn't steer the bike. Donuts aren't good for you. (if you want to comment on the donut thing, please start a new thread).  | ||
| Nattyx1 |
slaughter PLUS ONE! | ||
| Xnoahx |
Im inclined to listen to Steve, He was good enough for Buell to use to intro the bike to dealers at the Back to the Track courses Buell was offering. Riding these bikes at Laguna Seca was a blast. | ||
| Blake |
My take on Freddie is that his emphasis is on being smooth. I can trail brake smoothly or ride smoothly without trail braking. On the track we'd get left in the dust and lapped twice if the binders aren't putting some serious whoa all the way to the apex. On the street, the track experience pays off when need arises to brake while in a turn, but I rarely ride to the point where I feel the need to do so. I really enjoy the lean and the build-up of g's, but I'm not in any hurry to get there. I don't live in the mountains either. Darnit. Probably if I rode more often on a stretch like the Dragon's Tail where multiple very tight switchback type turns come into play I'd be trail braking all over the place in order to keep a good pace. | ||
| Hootowl |
Oh come on Blake, there are some great curves in your neck of the woods. And I know where both of them, are.  | ||
| 99buellx1 |
I think people would be surprised to know that many of them already do this without even realizing it. I know I didn't realize how much of it I did until I watched my track video from Road America. This is also something that I dont like about MSF. When instructing the basic class, we are instructed to teach that braking while turned is terrible and you will crash and die and purple bunnies will eat you. (or something to that effect.) While I agree that braking while turning is not a procedure that should be done by brand new riders, and that we dont want to be cluttering up their already struggling minds and hands, we should also acknowledge that it cand and does serve a purpose. It just falls into one of those - Need to know - Want to know - Nice to know - issues. My shameless plug to get people to watch my video: | ||
| Nattyx1 |
Blake I still think you're conceptualizing this differently. If you live in a place where there's a fairly tight curve at the end of some sort of straightaway, then you need this. And in fact, the perceptible g-forces will be diminished when you do it right because you are slowing more gradually, over a longer piece of tarmac given the same brake "marker" preceding the turn. And as stated, the result of that longer decel is less suspension kickback/chassis movement/contact patch size changing. In general, there's LESS conflicting info being sent into your brain via hands/seat/feet/eyes, meaning you'll have more of your keithcode $10 bill left to spend on that f'ing deer that sprints in front of you at the last second. | ||
| Rodrob |
Wow, great stuff. I am going to do some practice runs using more trail braking to see how it effects my lap times. Typically, I am on the gas before I reach the apex, since I have already completed my turn in and set my lean angle and line. I never (intentionally) coast through the apex. Getting a false neutral will demonstrate why that is not good. The effects of braking of any kind and it's effects on bike geometry and therefore turn in and radius is a well documented phenomenon and cannot be ignored. But I am curious about the idea that gradually applying throttle causes the bike to stand up. I have experienced this on my V-rod with a very flat swing arm angle, but once I got my Buell set up right (I think), I don't have that experience. It tracks at the same lean angle and radius as I roll on unless I start to spin the rear tire, or stand it up myself. I would appreciate feedback on that. BTW, I am not anti trail braking, I'm just trying to get a better idea of when, how and why to use it, or not. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
In my opinion, trail braking is like rev-matched downshifting--it is a good technique and when properly learned, will be second nature and a consistent part of a rider's technique. One doesn't have to be riding balls-to-the-wall or on the racetrack to realize a benefit from either technique. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Thefleshrocket - +1. | ||
| Mac_inger |
I guess im cool because i do it and i never knew it was a technique, let alone that it has a scary name. Good job me  |
