| Author | Message | ||
     Avc8130 |
So...how does one unsubscribe from a thread? | ||
| Pdccd |
Go ahead and "unsubscribe". If it hasn't yet, this shit-show will be knocking down your door soon enough. I'm not left wing, i'm not right wing. I'm a fing person, just like every one of you. If you think big business gives a F about you, or a republican or democratic politician gives a F about you or can fix your problems, your f'ed. We're all F'ed. If losing sleep at night wondering how many poor kids missing fingers it took to sew my sheets makes me left wing, then F'it. Call me Lefty. I'm sick of feeling like i'm the only crazy bastard that sees what a mess is coming for us all. Shit, i'm probably on a terrorist watch list now for posting this.  | ||
| Drawkward |
Pdccd: You may want to get down from your pedestal. You're not the only person to feel that way. You're just the first to post it on BadWeb  | ||
| Pdccd |
And please, please. Someone bring up that word that the genius economists that brought us sub-prime mortgages, NAFTA, and elimination of the gold standard love to use. Protectionism. Oooh. Bring it.  | ||
| Pdccd |
Pedestal? Like i said bud, i'm no better than anyone else, i just feel crazy sometimes because i don't hear or see anyone else as pissed about it as I am. Thats all. I'm part of the problem (note the chinese computer blah blah part:-) | ||
| Dannybuell |
There are several 800 lb. gorilla's in politic's nobody wants to talk about it. 1. How can you have consumerism/economic prosperity when the bulk of your population is competing with the 3rd world? 2. The corporate rule of government, Left or Right they are both taking everyone's money at election time. 3. Corporation's exist at the mercy of government, the people. Corporation's are not a person and should have no say in anything. There is no sin if you kill or destroy a corporation. Coffee or Tea ?? | ||
| Court |
>>>>the US made guitars (and I can only speak for myself) generally use better materials, better fit and finish, last nearly forever and sound better. I agree that was true at one time. I can't speak to it now. All of my guitars, Martin, Fender and Gibsons, are all MADE IN THE USA. The folks I know who are "high level" players however assure me that the current crop of Epiphones are identical in every respect and made of identical material. My personal problem . . having bought the J40 I play nearing 40 years ago . . is that I am so darn used to the Gibson headstock that the Epiphone (By the way, the Italian guys name was Epi and at one time it was one of the premier guitars) just looks odd to me. It's interesting to watch how our buying perceptions are shaped and how our background and personal experiences shape our purchase decisions. I suppose I'm sending a subliminal message as, for the fist time in 30 years, I have all American guitars, Amps, cars and motorcycles. Go figure. Wasn't this an "American Made" thread at some point?  | ||
| Stirz007 |
This is one of the more interesting threads in a while - it hasn't totally devolved yet (it will). It seems to me, whatever your political persuasion or trade/profession, the general tone is that a lot of folks are pissed (the masses are restless) - me included. I think most posters here are people who aren't gazillionaires, work, pay taxes and have a generally dim outlook of the future of the U.S. if current policy and practices continue... "the people get the government they deserve". And we're pissed at ourselves because the basic problem is us (Buell owners excluded, of course) - we elected people who may not be interested in much more than themselves, we drank the snake oil, and yet it happens again every election cycle. Our Senators and Congressmen are the best bet to affect change - but without an incentive for them or some interest that pays his/her bills, you have to be vocal, insistent and focused to make any headway. A commitment we often aren't willing to make, especially since boat rockers are subject to being harassed or minimalized - who wants that? Please pipe in with some happy thoughts!!!! (happy...happy...haphappppyy) | ||
| Stirz007 |
Temporary deviation from Topic (my apologies) Sorry Court - forgot about important issues like guitars. Did the Gibson factory tour last summer (Memphis). Pretty cool. The were working the specialty guitar line at the time. Buying perceptions are certainly affected by those factors as well as who was/is your guitar god, years of reading music rags (and ads), friends, first guitar you owned - all that stuff. I think music (read; ART) is really hard to be clinical - emotion is a big part of the equation. The relationship with these tools is different from that of other trades. One thing for sure, though. A US made Fender or Gibson holds value much better if you have to sell one of your girls. Back to Topic :: Buying American makes sense here - actually, it is your moral and ethical obligation to buy that axe.. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Like many others I have bought some foreign products with varying results but as I have learned, and experienced, especially with the Chinese, from a person I know who buys containers (the large ones like a semi truck), for a distributor here of various products from many overseas suppliers, he told me: "the problem with the Chinese is that mostly, unlike our mfg. plants, the Chinese have many, many plants spread all over the kingdom and all producing the same product (the way they work to utilize the cheap labor) and each plant has its own quality control, hence, he said he will get a container, with thousands of items and which he has to send back half because they are inferior. The rest would be just fine". I have personally bought Chinese items at Walmart, with their great exchange policy, and have had to exchange an item several times until I found one that works properly. For how long I guess I will find out. There is much better QC here in the states and many European countries and Japan that are similar where factories are centrally located with a better watch over mass produced goods. Of course there are always exceptions on all things. But..... Take your choice for products depending on your needs and wealth but be careful if you just might NEED to exchange an item that could fail. Maybe at an inappropriate time. Just my personal observation. I prefer to invest my limited funds carefully just once with long term, proven quality from a proven company. I really dislike the idea of throw away items in the world we live in now. FWIW, Bob | ||
| Iamarchangel |
It's protectionism when you don't support it, it's tariffs when you do. I support tariffs on import goods that will compete with domestic goods. Tariffs balance trade. However, when tariffs are removed, the economists do not call it unbalanced trade, they call it free trade. And I think we've seen the failure of that experiment. | ||
| Jdugger |
> And I think we've seen the failure of that experiment. Depends on industry. In my industry (software), the US exports a whole lot of stuff. So, I generally see anything other than free trade as an economic inefficiency. If another country can produce a good for less than we can here, we should trade something we do better than they do for it, and we will both be better off. | ||
| Jng1226 |
If another country can produce a good for less than we can here, we should trade something we do better than they do for it I generally agree with you. However, in some industries there is indeed not fair competition when China artificially controls its currency for the past 20 years so they have an automatic cost advantage against all modern economies whose currencies are publicly traded. Also, their disregard (culturally or otherwise) for IP protection/enforcement, especially in your industry, is anything but playing by modern/civilized rules. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
jdugger: what you said makes perfect sense. However, that is part of the bafflegab referred to above. Free is not being used in the sense of open, equal and even, it is being used in the sense of unrestrained. The second part of your equation does not happen, and in fact, those countries often have restrictions to NA imports. That is the failure. The model you describe would be acceptable to almost everybody. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Jdugger - 'I generally see anything other than free trade as an economic inefficiency....' That's the cool aid of macro economics. The problem with those arguments is that just like students in school and later in society, everyone sits somewhere on the bell curve. Instead of grades it's your role in society. The 'We have to get smarter to better compete...' doesn't change the bell curve one bit. The politicians envision 'a healthy prosperous America with a better educational system'. Those arguments deny the existence of and responsibility to average and below average people. The America we live in today has left them out. They just fall off the map, not even on the radar. As a society we have a responsibility to assure adequate opportunity for every member what ever their intelligence/ability level. America's descent into cultural obscurity is marred by the fact that we developed distinct dogma's to deny any responsibility for our less than brilliant members. We can't even take care of our own. A healthy society needs jobs for every member on the bell curve, that's what's missing. | ||
| Pizzaboy |
This is an awesome thread | ||
| Mountainstorm |
We need to deviate from the "Bottom Line" mentality that shipped all the jobs over seas. I for one have always been willing to pay more for a product made here in the states (I bought 4 Buells didn't I  ). As a craftsman I come across that mentality in a lot of prospective clients. They somehow expect a tradesman with 30 years experience to work for the same rate as laborer. They expect custom designed and fabricated goods to be no more expensive than mass produced goods made in sweatshops abroad. Until we can change this idea that socks should only cost $2 a dozen (just an example) we will continue to support the growth of our biggest (potential) enemy: China. We have no one to blame but ourselves for being too short sighted and cheap to support local industry. Obviously it's not just consumers, but policy makers and CEOs that need to wake up and smell the (Imported Chinese) Tea. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
as has been hit on several times here. we are our own worst enemy financially. we all want $30/hr or more and $0.99 bottles of CocaCola and of course we want 50% returns at least on all our investments. so we can retire well. of course as we are seeing now those desires are at odds with each other. we want to buy American but we aren't willing to pay what it costs in the short term. So now we have along term problem. someone once told me "someone has to be poor" in a 'free market economy' socialism etc look nice on paper but so far haven't been all that successful in actual application. that's not to say it doesnt get by it does but it's still a Robin Hood mentality and so i wonder if we actually got some real steam behind the idea of Buying America, as it's more than buy American we actually need to buy America back from our debtors. just how long would it take? (Message edited by boogiman1981 on October 15, 2010) | ||
| Jdugger |
> As a society we have a responsibility to assure adequate opportunity for every member what ever their intelligence/ability level. No we don't. I really wish there were a big sign at the border crossing and in delivery rooms across this country that reads: "Welcome to America. Good luck." I don't buy into the idea of social contracts. A little reading for those that seem to think the numbers will magically work themselves out without impact when you go fiddling with the market: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadweight_loss (Message edited by jdugger on October 15, 2010) | ||
| S21125r |
And let's not forget that in order to do business in China, a foreign company must set up a joint venture in country with a local producer. Not only do we get a smaller piece of pie, but our IP in product and process are offered up free for the taking. Won't take long for one of those local producers to take all that knowledge and apply it to one of their products that we don't have vested interest in. At least that is the way the auto industry is set up. Sure doesn't sound like a free market to me. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Jdugger - As you disclosed are a programmer, I must assume that you are firmly entrenched in your job. Engineering schools have lamented, '... enrollments are down because students don't want a career that has to compete with the developing world.'. When bright 19 year old's can figure it out, who's fooling who? With no future supply of intern's... your's is a dwindling breed in America. Programmers have been coming here from India for decades, that will only accelerate in the future as China is exporting more and more engineers each year. ////////-------------------------------all-------- ------------------- <!--------------------------------------------> Do the following; a. 'I have mine and you get yours' b. 'good luck' c. 'I have my IQ, too bad for you dummies' accurately describe an elitist mindset? Some people are just looking out for themselves, others have a hard time with that kind of thinking. Government's responsibility is to assure the security and well being of every human member by doing the necessary things that individual's and corporation's cannot. I saw a sign on the wall by the elevator at the local universities School of Education yesterday, '68% of the people living at the poverty level in America have full time jobs'. Societies have always been judged by how well they treat their weakest members. By all measures this society has been failing for the last 40 years. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
jdugger: define "economic efficiency". Efficiency is a word that gets much bandied about because we think we know what it means. There is not standard definition, partly because it always needs a defined context. Easy example is our bikes: what the Daytona series Buells means by efficiency is not what a commuter means. In fact, at that point, the meanings may be exactly opposite. Individually, it may be efficient to defer to offshore. Socially, it may be inefficient to defer the local infrastructure support. Perhaps we should be looking at the compromise of "balanced trade" as a way to reconcile the two efficiencies. | ||
| Jdugger |
I am not a programmerm though at one time I did do software development work as my primary trade. I'm in the software industry. I do not have a college degree. I do not perceive Indian and Chinese technology as competitive, but complementary, and I felt this way when I was a software developer as well. They do the kind of work that wasn't really value add, anyway, and they do it cheaper and of a similar quality than I could have. I'm happy to pay them for it. I'm happy to pay a premium to local engineers and developers for the work they do in context of the customer, which cannot be easily outsourced at the same level of value as a local resource. "Good Luck" does not define an elitist attitude. It describes a work ethic and can-do attitude that until recently was the basis for success in this country. I don't think I have mine and you are on my own. I think there's plenty for both of us and it's your responsibility to step up for yourself to the extent you desire. One thing we agree on is the decay of society over the last 40 years. I say it's no small coincidence that's just a bit after the pay-for-not-working programs like Social Security came into practice in the United States. This is a country of endless opportunity. Step it up, use your head, and don't whine. You will be fine. | ||
| Reepicheep |
How can government assure "the well being" of every human being? Even if you believe such a statement, it is mathematically impossible. How can | ||
| Dman |
Amen, DannyBuell. I always laugh when I hear, the jobs that americans don't want to do are the ones sacrificed. Really? Oh, like programming, engineering, and of course the farm harvesting & landscaping. Years ago I was one of 10 partners who started an IT company, 2 yrs in, a backer pushed an area of the compnay into outsourcing some of the "lower level" coding. I took my money & ran, wanted no part of it. I'm on my 3rd tech company, my partner & I wouldn't outsource mopping the floors. I employ over 100 coders of all levels and another 100 engineers, all must be US citizen per our contracts. Finding BSCS & BSEE that are US citizens is 1,000 times harder than it was in the late 80's, mid 90's. I get asked all the time by high schoolers about advice, I say if you've got the math propensity, go engineering with a biz minor, if not, reverse it, go biz/fin with a computer minor. And call me when you graduate. My coders make $70-140K salary, and I see all these soft and made-up degrees day after day applying for tech jobs, what are these kids thinking they're going to do for a living & who's giving them direction. I'm outspoken when given the chance, and do what I personally can, but it's pathetic in the wake of it all. Hec, I don't know why I'm even posting, FWIW, just kinda ranting & enjoying a great thread on a great forum. I love that post above: Buy American = Buy Back America | ||
| Jdugger |
> Societies have always been judged by how well they treat their weakest members. Not really. The United States is the place to be because of opportunity, not because we promise food, shelter and income. Until recently in our history, we offered none of these social benefits, and yet we were *still* the place to be. Why is that, do you suppose? | ||
| Dannybuell |
Jdugger - "This is a country of endless opportunity. Step it up, use your head, and don't whine. You will be fine." This works fine if you have a good head. Forget the platitudes and address that segment of every society that on the BEST day of their life will move from an un-skilled to a semi-skilled job and be considered average. | ||
| Jdugger |
But that's just it Danny... it isn't and won't ever be that way, and you will go broke trying long before you ever get close. There are winners and there are losers, and it sucks, but that's sometimes the cards. How can you have an average if your expectation is everyone is above the median? Isn't what you are looking for a threshold? I've long since forgotten how to calculate the area under a curve, but I know in this case, the number is an astronomical quantity. I get what y'all are saying, and it's nice and all, but there isn't enough money in the world to bring everyone just in the US to what we know here as a middle-class lifestyle. The population of earth simply isn't that productive. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Jdugger - 'The United States is the place to be because of opportunity, not because we promise food, shelter and income... Why is that, do you suppose?' That is easy. Smart people will go where opportunity exists, America. Smart people will subordinate to a lesser job. Smart people have no trouble competing with not so smart people. | ||
| Jdugger |
It sounds like to me you have a beef with God or Chemistry (don't know your beliefs there)! I don't know what to tell you other than it's a simple fact some people are smarter than others, and that's just unfortunate circumstance in this situation. I'll also tell you, some not-as-smart-people have thick enough skulls just to break through. Where there's a will... |
