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Dannybuell
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 12:58 pm: | 
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platitudes are not answers. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 01:42 pm: |
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Danny: I think we've lost track of your question, and it's not really Jd's to answer.
I think he has actually addressed your question. That is, in the US, you're expected to hustle more and depend on the gov't less. Is he right, well, I'd disagree with his promise statement (Statue of Liberty counters that) but once you're in, this is what's expected. The US gov't has to strike a balance between allowing people to gain and protecting those left behind. However, it is also clear that the gov't will lean to allowing people to gain. That is its core philosophy. Consequently, the US will require a harsher test of need than for gain. And there is a strong argument that it has worked well.
However, on an international level, which is what this thread is about, there is a conflict. JD has expressed a view. I'd suggest that the terms commonly used are not the ones he is meaning. Free trade is not balanced trade. Free trade takes away domestic opportunities, balanced trade provides for them.
From where I sit, that's where I see the two of you agreeing. Those opportunities, which should be protected, are disappearing very quickly. It is the gov't's job to protect its people at an international level. Domestically, you're expected to look after yourself as much as you can.
I'd suggest that if balanced trade was actually in place, the disparity you see would not be there. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 02:12 pm: |
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> platitudes are not answers
> Societies have always been judged by how well they treat their weakest members.
Reconcile. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 02:33 pm: |
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Free trade: Trade without external encumbrances, including but not limited to:
* Tariffs
* Currencies on anything less than full market float
* Subsidies
I'm sure there's more. But basically, governments that step aside and let people do business. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 04:43 pm: |
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Iamarchangel 'It is the gov't's job to protect its people at an international level. Domestically, you're expected to look after yourself as much as you can.'
Local government doesn't count? Call the Marines when you have a burglar or keep a 12 guage?
//-------------------------------
Jdugger - Throw away people is the America I have seen since Ronald Reagan. Insane asylums closed and crazy people put on the streets. That was America then and now. 1/3 or more of the homeless are military veterans. The people who defended our flag and country are homeless. That was America then and now.
In my mind a platitude is some type of statement that appears to be sensible but does not seriously recognize or address the issue.
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/platitude
1: the quality or state of being dull or insipid
2: a banal, trite, or stale remark
Examples of PLATITUDE
His speech was filled with familiar platitudes about the value of hard work and dedication.
“blondes have more fun” is a silly platitude
(Message edited by dannybuell on October 15, 2010) |
Milt
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 05:17 pm: |
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quote:Together we must rise to ever higher and higher platitudes.
Richard J. Daley, Mayor of Chicago, 1955-1976 |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 07:59 pm: |
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Danny: you'll have to stay focused here. We're talking about work/business/jobs and core US philosophy.
You and DJ are agreeing on opportunity being available, at least that's what I read. You're both disagreeing on how accessible opportunity should be. You're both disagreeing on how much opportunity has been lost over the years. And, of course, you're both disagreeing with the government's role in that.
Me, I agree that opportunities should be available, that people who use them are rewarded. I believe it is the government's role to keep the access to opportunities fair. Everybody should be able to get to the door, not everyone can take that opportunity or will even want to: that's up to the individual.
I believe that, as long as other governments are legislating their labour/economy/trade, ours should too. I believe it is the government's role to make that as fair as it can for its own people. No more, no less. |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 09:08 pm: |
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Iam:
quote:I believe that, as long as other governments are legislating their labour/economy/trade, ours should too.
What does our government have to do with other governments? That's a very dangerous statement. |
Gsxrguy
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 10:13 pm: |
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The ceo of harley spoke at ohio state university tonight, and some were not very impressed, he talks about erik like he is a little kid with a dream. Douche harley ceo is the right man for the job.
If "anonymous" comes across this thread our offer stands to come give a real presentation here. We have many engineers that would benefit from seeing a real speaker
(Message edited by gsxrguy on October 15, 2010)
(Message edited by gsxrguy on October 15, 2010) |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 01:38 am: |
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Drawkward: the context is trade.
If another gov't won't allow our products to be imported, then our gov'ts should try to open up that trade. If the other gov't won't open up the trade, ours should impose sanctions or tariffs.
If another gov't will only export their product to us with a huge tariff, our gov't should intercede. If the other gov't won't remove the tariff, ours should impose sanctions or tariffs on trade items that country desires.
(Purists: sorry, I forget the name of the charge added by the exporter country to the value of the goods. I used "tariff" but I'm not sure that's the right word.)
That's balanced trade, free trade removes that from OUR side of the deal only. |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 05:51 pm: |
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Iam: Much better explanation and I'd have to say I agree! |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 08:34 pm: |
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What you describe Iam..., according to our founding fathers, is one of the few things the Federal government IS supposed to do.
IMO it has usurped way too much of the States rights and duties.
Good thread, not much devolution.  |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 08:53 pm: |
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> IMO it has usurped way too much of the States rights and duties
Not a day goes by I don't see evidence of how FDR set the stage for the ruining of this country. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 11:59 pm: |
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Jdugger - Families of that era grew up eating in soup kitchens, living in homeless camps, caravans... Unemployment was high, dust bowl/draught spawned a second westward movement. All but the rich struggled. A homeless encampment in Portland of that era was called Hooverville in reference to President Herbert Hoover (R.) where the mess started.
Roosevelt came into office giving a beat down and struggling country a sense of unity and hope.
Roosevelt and his fireside chats shared the ideals of fairness, respect, dignity, and opportunity for every American.
As young adults those Americans crossed Europe and Asia defeating two of the most ruthless enemies the world has ever seen.
Those hopeful depression era children are now known as the America's greatest generation. |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 02:06 pm: |
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Danny: The people of that generation are great. FDR was not. The two are completely separate. |
Pdccd
| | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 08:25 pm: |
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Iamarchangel: I believe your looking for VAT.
In an effort to refrain from digressing down the same tired paths these discussion always seem to, i'll try to keep on topic, and explain how/why i think things have changed and how they won't get fixed.
Simply put, capitalism is a machine that is fueled by sweat, blood and flesh. The smart ones become rich making sure it isn't theirs. But none the less, it's a machine. No heart, no soul. Just a machine. Now to assert that capitalism has been more successful than socialism or communism shows a lack of perspective. There are several different versions of capitalism, and only three have been applied large scale and no economic system applied large scale has been truly successful. But hell, we could argue all week about how to define economic success. There are economists who've been employed their whole lives debating that, so i won't.
Anyway, why i think we're broken:
When our country was primarily based on an agricultural industry (populated by local collectives of small farmers primarily) it was a pretty basic system. Farmer employed/payed employees (family, contractors, merchants etc.) supplied retailers with product, which in turn they sold to consumers, who defined price and used wages earned (from farming). So; Farmer$>Employee$>Retailer$>Farmer$>. Now, no one was getting filthy rich with this economic cycle, but it was a sustainable cycle. I won't wander into the change that occurred when we abruptly transitioned from an economy based on farming to corporate farming and manufacturing, The depression and mass migration west said it all.
So; Then it was similar. Manufacturer$>Employee$>Retailer$>Manufacturer and around it goes. The cycle was dictated by the consumer/employee. What they would pay defined what the manufacturer could make it for. Seemingly, a healthy, sustainable cycle. Money made here, money spent here. An odd check and balance. But then, something pretty cool happened. I'm not sure who figured it out first, the Retailers or the manufacturers, but with improvements in technology, it became possible to use much cheaper labor that the bulk of the world just happens to be full of (could be the scores of third world dictators we've supported for 60+years in order to suppress their populations so we could exploit their oil and banannas, but there i go again lol). So a sorta war broke out, and somehow, the Retailers won. Suddenly, the price for a product was dictated by the retailer, not the consumer. Walmart really perfected the system first it think. They became such a huge connection to the consumer, that they were able to tell the manufacturer what they were willing to pay to maximize their profit margins with no consideration for the consumer, or how it would affect them. The manufactures were forced to find a way to produce their products cheaper and meet walmarts demands, or perish (Look up Rubbermaids story as an example). The only option left after they micro managed the manufacturing process to death was they needed cheap labor. So off to the third world they went/go.
So now your saying, but what about all that cheap shit i can buy at walmart and extend my familys meager income even further thanks to all that cheap labor? You, are missing the point. The reason your familys earnings are meager, is because your jobs are being done elsewhere now. The healthy, sustainable cycle is broken. Now it goes; Retailers$>Manufacturer$>foreign employees$. Your money has left the country. So you ask two things looking at my childish scenario. Where's the retailers money coming from? Well, i figure we're burning the last of our old money, money created by that "greatest generation" we love to lament about. That and debt. Lots of lots of debt lol. So the next question might be, whats the point, if it's so unsustainable, what are they all thinking? They'll suffer when it all comes to a head too. But here's my theory. There's two kinds of players looking at this. The first figure f-it. By the time the shit hits the fan, they'll be gone. They don't have a country, they'll go wherever their profits buy the most, and will never pay the price for their short sighted decisions. The other version is my favorite. This one is doing something incredible. They're using our old money and credit to build a new, HUGE, middle class consumer in these foreign markets. Think of it, China and India, with a middle class and with enough money to actually purchase the shit their making. It's a huge new market, sooooooooooo, much bigger than our current one. 2billion 500 million consumers!! We're just over 300 million. Its simply genius. Building a new middle class by cannibalizing ours. See, capitalism is a machine, it feeds on flesh, and they have allot more of it.
Sorry, point was, money made here and spent here will always come back, but once it leaves, it isn't ever coming back to you. I don't care if they're paying auto workers a hundred dollars an hour to turn a screw, because that person is gonna spend it in his community. At his mechanics, his church, his coffee shop, his grocery store.He's going to indirectly employ hundreds who will employ hundreds. Where do you think the money going over seas is getting spent? Save a few cents today, but sell your future each time you do. 15 years ago i used to tell people with every cent you spend at walmart, you might as well just send 7.62mm for Chinese/communist ak's. Now i don't think it matters, they wont have to fire a shot.
And again, yes, gross oversimplification in an effort to get a general opinion across. My fingers hurt.
(Message edited by pdccd on October 17, 2010) |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 09:41 pm: |
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Pdccd - It was all good. The LOL moment was --'Save a few cents today, but sell your future each time you do'.
The hyper inflation of the 70's with high gas prices and American gas guzzlers. This was the start in my mind. In the late 60's the Z car was a Z-28 Camaro. In the 70's the Z car was the Datsun(Nissan) 240-Z. Japanese cars got their foot in the door in the 70's with extremely fuel efficient and reliable vehicles.
Detroit was caught off guard then and the Japanese have had them on the ropes ever since. This might be too west coast IDK: If you ask a sports car minded young adult to choose between a Subaru WRX STI and a Mustang, Camaro, or Challenger there is going to be a pretty lopsided result for the Subaru.
The new Camaro's and Challenger's took a great leap forward with independent rear suspensions. 40 years later GM and Chrysler-Fiat have technological parity with the 1970 240-Z's independent rear suspension. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 10:28 pm: |
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pdccd: not a bad summary for a thick-neck welder.
Actually, Danny, I'm going to disagree with you on the cars thing. That was an example of protectionism that Jd was talking about. Because of the protectionism, Detroit fell asleep at the wheel. I will start a rant here if left alone. Point is that Detroit did not make cars, or promote cars, that consumers wanted. Price/labour/legacy has nothing to do with it. They stopped making "cool" or "neat" cars. Asia ended up looking good by default.
Detroit was not caught off guard, they chose not to compete, because they were too comfortable.
Jd is right that the CEOs are supposed to lead the way. They failed and Pdccd is right that the circle is broken. The auto industry is just one example. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 12:54 am: |
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Iamarchangel - I think some of what you are offering is the 'conventional wisdom', I cannot argue with.
As mentioned elsewhere the fair trade arguments do not address government sponsored R&D of which the Japanese are famous. When R&D becomes a zero cost center, a companies product evolution will accelerate.
The Japanese government was also notorious for allowing faster depreciation schedules than the American government allows. Manufacturing investments written off faster than your international competition will give you another competitive advantage.
If it costs you nothing to develop a technology and your capital investments
are recouped faster than your competitors, they will appear to be standing still.
How many model changes within any time interval:
1. Celica v.s. Mustang or Camaro?
2. Camry or Accord v.s. Impala?
That's another reason why. |
Pdccd
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 03:15 pm: |
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I can never help wondering, when unfortunately I find myself pondering these things, who's using who? I mean, is the cold war really over? Are the industrialists using the Chinese to increase their revenue, hoping the exposure to the western lifestyle will open new markets, or are the Communists using the industrialists to bankrupt the U.S. like we did the Soviets? They're a patient people. Think of it, the greatest military victory in history, without firing a shot, and funded by the U.S. middle class...
I'm writing this on an apple IIe from the rec room of my phyc ward, or worse, in my padded cell drooling on my straight jacket, but think i'm writing this lol. Good luck everyone. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 03:25 pm: |
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Pdccd - "the greatest military victory in history, without firing a shot, and funded by the U.S. middle class... "
That is it. Architected by the wealthy corporate interests and funded by the middle class. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 03:34 pm: |
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> That is it. Architected by the wealthy corporate interests and funded by the middle class.
Do you wear a tin-foil hat and lead cape? |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 04:33 pm: |
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I think pdccd's comment was that the Chinese were about to be the victors, after using US money, like the Borg.
And I think he draws a very important point, especially for the US. We tend to think conventional warfare, when the world is really engaged in economic warfare. Terrorism, for example, is economic. We should not be responding as if it's conventional.
(…and anybody who is still using a IIe is only pretending to misspell psych. Low tech always wins in the end.) |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 06:04 pm: |
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Jdugger - Who told you about my tin foil hat and lead cape! That was supposed to be a secret! I got mine at the University Bookstore, great prices. We had to have the 'kit' for art class. The teachers are all quite talented. They helped me, I did all of the folding and stapling! Nerdo Geek told me the newest cape at the bookstore no longer has GPS functionality, a 100% increase in stealth! :-)
Every job moving to China is a casualty in economic warfare.
The suits are getting rich paying 3rd world labor rates and to he(( with the neighbors down the street/road/highway. How long will the American people stand for this capitalist dogma/corporate welfare to the detriment of American society as a whole?
Gated communities are like the canary in the coal mine that a society is failing. What's next gated and guarded communities with personnel using semi-automatic rifles? Will military technology be implemented in vehicles used by American executives or will they just relocate and leave us behind to the anarchy that follows with failed economies? |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 11:51 am: |
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As they drive by we see just a tiny bit of outsourcing's benefits.
C-Suite dogs took these fast...
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-10-20/porsch e-sells-out-329-000-911-as-luxury-bounces-back.htm l |
Ottobotz
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2010 - 06:47 pm: |
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-Politics on a motorcycle forum? Blah, Blah, Blahhhhhhh.
-What the F, get out and ride!!!!!!! |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2010 - 07:12 pm: |
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imarchangel
NEWS FLASH THE DAY GOVERNMENT CAN'T ALLOW ME TO GAIN Its over. When those bozos think they have that much control Its time to replace that Government. There is a major difference between handicapped,sick aged or Infirm and stupid and lazy. |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2010 - 11:52 pm: |
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I was close last election, but no balls.
This time, the shit has hit the fan.
Anyone in office now, FAILS - Grade F
Incumbents all go, maybe let the Coroner stay...
Enough of that... |
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