| Author | Message | ||
     Tbowdre |
just mounted up a set of new tires and after scrubbing them in a bit I noticed my front chicken strip is about 2cm and my rear is about 1cm anyone know why? todd | ||
| Ratsmc |
You mean why they are different? There could be any number of reasons why: front-end geometry, different tire profiles, your riding style, your speed, your suspension set up, etc. | ||
| 09_1125r |
So... is that more or less chicken strip than you are accustomed? Previous tires were stock? | ||
| Tbowdre |
yes, what would cause them to be different. it rides like its on rails but I was wondering if this was an indicator of a suspension issue | ||
| 09_1125r |
IMO that's due to the different tire profiles between the front and rear. You'll scrub the edge of the rear before the edge of the front, and that's a good thing. The rear tire will flex more easily than the front when under heavy lean angle to compensate for tire grip. | ||
| Pizzaboy |
X2 on different tire profiles. different brands will do that. i still have about 1mm of chicken strip left on my front pirelli rosso corsa's, where the rear is all the way worn off. im riding my bike on the track to the very edge of its traction limit; pirelli's just have a taller profile compared to the michelins i was running before. im ok with this because they stick better than my last set used to PLUS ive got 3000 street miles AND 5 track days on them... and they still have 2 more days, and 3000 more street miles left in them! | ||
| Duggram |
This year I switched to Michelin slicks on my racer. The rear tire has a round profile and not strips. The front has a sharp V profile (turns in way easy) and strips. Tire dealer at the track says even the pros have strips with that particular profile. | ||
| Jdugger |
Chicken strips are a good thing -- it means you aren't out of tire. Strive to ride faster and use less tire. | ||
| Fast1075 |
+1 Jdugger. | ||
| Duggram |
Jim, this is one time I have to disagree with you. When you enter a turn on the track do you really try to stand the bike up? I'm always trying to get the bike as low as possible on entry to scrub speed off. This takes care of the strips. Somewhere at or after the apex is when I start standing the bike up. I've never heard any of the pro or fast club racers say that strips are good. Of course my technique might be why I'm so slow.  | ||
| Jdugger |
> When you enter a turn on the track do you really try to stand the bike up? > I'm always trying to get the bike as low as possible on entry to scrub speed off. I strive to use the least amount of lean angle possible to achieve my desired corner speed and radius. On corner exits, I actively strive to stand the bike up as soon as possible, pushing the bike up/away from me as I continue to lean into the turn. If I want to scrub speed, I use the brake. > I've never heard any of the pro or fast club racers say that strips are good. I'm not saying they have any -- as you indicated at some pretty surprisingly modest speeds, it's almost impossible to have them on the rear for sure, and much of them on the front. One of the things I often point out to when coaching riders new to the track once they get a little speed is chicken strips. In particular, how they will have NONE, but after following them around for a while, why I DO have them, and sometimes pretty big ones. The question that inspires thought: "How is it I'm chasing you around this track, filming you, and passing you at the last second into a turn so you can follow me, and yet you have no chicken strips, and I do... Who will run out of traction first, do you think?" Give it a minute -- they will get it.. Then we can go back to the lesson about body position. | ||
| Duggram |
From what you say here, I understand that you have more confidence in your tires at less lean angle than your students. Now, come to my track and tell your theory to Chris Peris. I don't think it's going to wash with him. Jim, I know from my Dallas friend that you are a fast rider. Just think how much faster you would be if you used all of your tire. | ||
| Jdugger |
> I understand that you have more confidence in your tires at less lean angle than your students. It's more along the lines of "I need less lean angle for a given speed and radius." So, what happens if we are both comfortable at the same lean angle? Who's faster?  | ||
| Duggram |
Wouldn't that depend on who has the most confidence in their tires at that angle? And, whose tires have the best performance at that angle? Hey, this is what makes all this stuff fun! I'll never master it, but I'm sure having fun with it. Now, I'm going back to my P90X workout so I can go I can fight off fatigue better and go faster. | ||
| Nukeblue |
i like to call them "safety strips" which is what they are on the street! on the track thats a whole different story, you use all the tire. fronts always have more safety strip due to tire profile. jdugger, you're right | ||
| Westmoorenerd |
I'm going to go with Jdugger on this one... Sounds sorta like what some nice people that work at the California Sportbike School told me few weeks ago...I think their names were Kristi Martel and Dylan Code.... | ||
| Duggram |
Everyone has an opinion. I'm going with reality on this one. Checkout the pits at any race track. Look at the front tires. Do you think the MotoGP, WSBK, WERA or AMA bikes have chicken strips? Then again, going slow enough on the track to maintain good strips would be safer. | ||
| Westmoorenerd |
We're not saying that not having chicken strips are bad...I'm just saying that if you can go around the corner with the bike more upright and your body off center more, you'll still go around the corner just as fast....just with some strips. I had the same issues while I was doing my "mini track day" with the folks from CSS. I was focused on those damn strips, Dylan pulled me aside and talked to me. By the end of the day I was lapping people that had no strips, while I still had 1/8" hanging out. It's all about bringing your upper body over the side of the bike. | ||
| Duggram |
I agree with the body lean idea, but you are still not going as fast as you can if you are maintaining strips. If you combine body lean and bike lean you are going to go faster. There's no way around it. Sure, if you are comparing a rider with the improper style with one that body leans correctly, then yes you can go faster with strips. But to say that you are at your fastest while maintaining chicken strips is denying reality. | ||
| Jaimec |
Having no chicken strips basically means you've ridden at the edge with no reserve left in case something unexpected should occur. If you're competing for the World Championship, with hundreds of thousands of dollars of sponsorship and prize money at stake, good on you. If you're just doing a track day... you're out of your ******* mind. Lack of chicken strip is probably "cool" for bragging about with your friends but it also means you didn't leave yourself an "out" if things got REALLY hairy... either that, or things got really hairy WAY too frequently and you need to work on smoothing out your technique. Example: When I finished my most recent Superbike School, I had NO chicken strips left and my tire looked SMOKED to the edges. I NEVER got my knee down. My friend was dragging his knee is almost every corner, yet had about a quarter inch of chicken strip on his front tire and a little less on his rear. Yes, that was an admission on my part that I need to work on my technique. | ||
| Drawkward |
Duggram, from reading your posts I think you are confusing leaning the bike over out of NECESSITY with just leaning it over to go fast. Body position allows the bike to need less lean angle in any given turn for any set speed, and also allows the tire to have a bigger contact patch. When body position is the farthest off and the bike still needs leaned over more is when leaning over indicates that you're going faster. But just leaning the bike over far into a turn does NOT mean you are fast. There are some pictures I'd like to post up here but they are from another board and I don't know if the member would appreciate me critiquing his body position but he's leaning his bike over as far as I do but not leaning off at all...terribly BP...and I can guarantee that if he stood the bike up a bit and leaned off more he'd be going just as fast with less lean angle, and more contact patch. Racers or track day junkies like myself typically have no chicken strips because we're leaning off and need to lean the bike over to stay on line. I've never ridden the tracks that JD has up there in the Dallas area, but I know at GrandSport Speedway it would be nearly impossible to keep your chicken strips and still be smooth and fast. The same goes for MSR Houston and parts of TWS. I don't know how JD keeps any chicken strips, but I would sure like to do a follow lap and see. Most of the racers and TD guys that I ride with get LOW and push their tires very hard. Personally I have no chicken strip on my rear and about a 1/16 to an 1/8 of an inch on my front. If I lean the bike over the farthest I feel comfortable with the bike feels like it's gonna fall over. So I'm good with my chicken strips on the front. Frankly, I could care less about chicken strips. Although, I do like it when some street warrior tells me all about how fast he is on the streets and whatnot and then I look at his tires and they have inches of chicken strip on front and rear. Always makes me laugh...silly street warriors. | ||
| Duggram |
Jaime, I like what you say. It brings up the question of why we ride/race on a track. If someone is doing it for bragging rights, then I would suggest that this person has other issues that need to be dealt with. One of the best things about racing at the club level is the involvement. I’m only just starting to make money at it (for sure not a profit though!). But the comradery, pushing yourself to the limit in a controlled environment, and competition is what it’s all about. You’re not thinking about preserving your chicken strips (which does apparently seem to have bragging rights attached to it). You’re just going all out and having fun, yet still remembering that you need to go to work on Monday. BTW when I’m looking at the wear patterns on my tires, I never think of strips. I’m looking for patterns. Who cares about strips? Are they really an indicator of your riding ability? I just thought of something interesting, my FJR street bike has giant chicken strips on it. Does that mean I’m a good rider? | ||
| Duggram |
Drawkward, first please let me invite you as I have Jim Dugger to come over to Arroyo Seco Raceway in southern New Mexico, not far from El Paso. I wanted to make it to Eagle’s Canyon to ride with Jim this fall but personal problems got in the way. But next year looks like it will be my best year yet for traveling. If possible I will make it down your way too. I look forward to racing with other Bullers!! Come to think of it we have one guy from Texas at Arroyo that drives more than 500 miles for our events. He and I left at the same time this past Sunday, and I ‘m sure I got home way before him. Actually, I don’t think I’m confusing anything. What I did was I assumed perfect body position in my first posts. I didn’t take into account that Jim is a good rider and would naturally be faster than a trainee because of body position. Body position is about one of the first things you learn in school (I’ve been through one). I haven’t been racing a long time but I have been doing it long enough to get many lectures on body position. That’s another of the great things about club racing, there’s so much good advice floating around. | ||
| Ysracer |
The less lean angle you can use in a specific corner at a particular speed the better. That can be achieved three ways: -Line selection -Body position -Rate of steering input (this is huge) What you do with the extra potential is then, up to you. More speed to use the extra available lean angle or greater margin for error. | ||
| Drawkward |
Dugg, if I had the money and the time I'd be all over the place. I'd like to get into club racing with CMRA but I just don't have the funds or the time like a lot of those guys do. I work for the government and they don't pay the best...bastards! If I'm ever out that way with the bike though, I'd love to stop by. If you're assuming perfect BP then I'd understand your position. | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
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| Jaimec |
Ysracer: I forgot about "rate of steering input." One of the exercises Keith Code teaches in Level 1 of his Superbike School is the "Quick Flick" exercise. Instead of slowly rolling the bike over into a lean, it's a quick "snap" into full lean. DEFINITELY takes some practice to get used to it... but it WORKS. HOWEVER, do NOT try this on COLD TIRES (DAMHIK). | ||
| Blake |
The harder you brake going into the apex, the more front tire you will use. Most of us don't brake anywhere near the limit as we approach the apex. If we would, the front tire would show more wear at the extreme edges. | ||
| Tbowdre |
hey this is my thread! LOL! back on topic I am only 160# with gear and have had a tough time setting my sag. im still riding a little high in the front the new tires are the 2ct powers anyway thanks for answering my question blake. that actually makes sense, and so does the profile explanation todd | ||
| Jdugger |
Dugg, At race pace, I might have a tiny bit of front chicken strip left, but the rear is gone on a scrub in lap. My comments were specifically about using body position and line to manage the required lean angle for a given radius and speed. Others just much better articulated it than I. Hopefully this next year I can come race with you. I think my CMRA license will let me race in your club as well. |
