| Author | Message | ||
     Jeepinbueller |
Am I doing something wrong here that I don't know about? I just don't get it. If you wanna' skip to the actual issue, skip the next paragraph. Let me preface: I love this bike. I've never badmouthed Buell, Erik, or the bike itself ... but it's seriously driving me nuts. I'm not going to whine or complain because that's honestly not how I feel. The feeling is more akin to frustration ... I really just want to the bike to work b/c it's a dream when it does. These aren't little "character" building issues -- I own a '99 TJ and believe me this: there's a difference between issues that are just character flaws, like stuttering and hard starts, and actual performance issues ... like not being able to charge the battery properly and keeping fluids inside the bike. The issues at hand: The bike: 2009 CR, ~7,500 miles since mid-Dec '09. Barker, E.B.R. ECM, denoided, charging harness update. Been in the shop five time this summer for: charging harness update, clutch piston seal x 2, charging system test (battery almost died: deemed "okay" with a charge), and the latest was for the past two weeks getting the stator replaced after, finally, the dealer agrees that something needs to be done (left me stranded: no charge). I get the bike back from the dealer today after work, and go fill up with gas. At the same time I swap the E.B.R. ECM back in -- because it's been confirmed on BWB that their ECMs can control the stator using the harness update and relay -- and then ride off home. Brand new stator; regulator and battery untouched. Battery charged at dealer. Nearly get home which is only about 20 miles away and my battery light pops up at the stoplight. WTF? Didn't I just get a brand new stator? What the hell is going on here? AND on top of that, about five miles earlier, the speedo goes out. Tried turning off the bike and switching back on after the IC shuts off ... nothing. No gear indicator and no speedo ... tach gives me redline at 5K RPM since it thinks I'm revving with no load. So what's the deal here? I'm sitting at the stop light and I'm at 12.0 Vdc with the fans running, low beam only (HID). All bulbs are LED except the headlights. Battery light in my face. I let it run for about five mins at idle when I got home to see what it would do ... was flickering back and forth between 11.9-12.0 Vdc but didn't drop below that. I really don't know what to do. The dealer is an hour away, each way. They're great guys but I'm really getting aggravated routine this summer: find friend to follow me to dealership and drive me home (two hours at least), wait 2-5 days for parts to get in, plead for friend to drive me out there again. Dealer will charge me with $75 towing fee to have it towed from my house. For those of you who have gotten 10-20-30K miles on yours without issue ... someone's looking over you because I seem to be catching everything under the sun. Thank God for the warranty! I would have spent well over $2,000 in repairs and I haven't even clicked over 8K miles yet. | ||
| Dannybuell |
My CR's original stator lasted 2200 miles. I am almost at 5600 miles. To me the new setup is clearly better than the old. I sent my Erik Buell Racing ECM back a few weeks ago for a reflash. I too was experiencing the battery light and thought there may be something amiss with the race ecm. Riding the CR with the stock ECM forces you to keep the RPM's up and shift at higher points. No battery light at all the last few weeks. The weather has cooled down quite a bit though. If I had a KEDA or Barker on at those RPM's I would be setting off car alarms and blue lights! | ||
| Ratbuell |
(sigh) OK. Here we go. AGAIN. The stator harness is HEAT based. When the computer sees a particular temperature (i.e. the engine gets hot), and certain parameters are met (i.e. the engine idling and NOT circulating a lot of oil around the stator to keep it cool), it will TURN OFF ONE LEG OF THE STATOR ON PURPOSE. That shows as a "low" voltage reading if it goes on long enough - i.e. you let it run for five minutes at idle. Did your voltage pick up once you were riding over 5k rpm again (like the bulletin says)? If it did...the system is working EXACTLY as designed. REV THE MOTORCYCLE. It's not an aircooled engine with a 6k redline; it doesn't even come ALIVE until 4k. RUN IT. The more revs you turn, the more oil you circulate, keeping the stator cooled off...and the less frequently the computer turns off the stator leg. | ||
| Jeepinbueller |
I didn't see that in my bulletin ... the letter I got from H-D/BMC was to go in for a voluntary harness upgrade -- which I did the weekend before I got the even letter thanks to BWB -- it never mentioned that I have to cruise in 4th-5th gear all the time. That's something that really isn't acceptable. You're absolutely right Rat: the bike doesn't come "alive" until 4.5-5K RPM. But honestly 90% of the time I don't need to cruise around town or on the highway in "raging boner" mode ... I honestly just need it to get me to my destination. There's plenty of power to cruise at 3K RPM. I know everything we talk about here: I read as much as the Frogster and Court. Engine RPM needs to be above a certain point so enough oil flows through to the stator housing on the end of the crank to cool it sufficiently. I know -- you don't have to go into "school the noob" mode. I have a Barker and it's just not couth to drive around at 5K RPM all the time. I mean, Froggy: with your hypermiling ways, how does someone with your riding style not run into charging problems? And you can't be the only one who rides like that. I'm sure Frederick's gonna' be real happy when I tell them to order a VSS NOW. NO, I'm not leaving my bike with you for a week to wait for the part to come in. I'm reading 0 MPH and have no gear signal ... it's the damn VSS ... order it and I'll bring it in and you can swap it in five minutes. It's literally right on top of the stator housing ... just swap it. Believe me I ream the hell out of her when I'm out on that kind of ride ... but sometimes, being it's my DD, I just need to get there. When you purchase a $60,000 performance car, of course you're going to ream it out ... but you also delve into the situation under the assumption that the basic needs of a properly running machine are met: you're paying for the extras that make it superior to other machines. What we have here, and I'm not trying to be a broken record about something that's ringing on all the boards and social gatherings, is my machine, in it's current configuration, does not meet the needs for a machine that can achieve homeostasis and run consistently. I still love this bike and can't wait to ride it to work tomorrow. I just hope I can make this last a little longer. | ||
| Froggy |
Try running it with the stock ECM and see what happens. I rode home from work tonight on my CR, keeping it under 4000rpm the whole time, doing about 55mph on the highway, and the only time the voltage dropped below 13.5 was when I was at a red light with the engine off, but it still never went low enough to trigger the battery light. I wonder if something else is amiss here, like an incorrectly installed harness. | ||
| Jeepinbueller |
I haven't the slightest. If it continues to pose as a problem I'll just bring the stock ECM in my backpack on the next long ride. After riding with Erik's ECM it's really hard to go back to the stock map voluntarily. I mean, the only thing I can think of is that it IS Erik's ECM. Either that or the regulator is bad as well and they just missed it. When I'm commuting I usually ride easy ... but this was an hour ride home after not having Ginger for nearly two weeks. I reamed her. Touched 105 MPH a few times on I-70 and hit a curve run afterward. The battery light came on at a relatively short light ... couldn't have been sitting there more than two to three minutes. Baffled is I. | ||
| Ratbuell |
FWIW, Frederick did my harness install and I've had zero problems with it. They actually have one or two guys left who still speak Buell (although I did get mine done when I, and a couple others, still worked there). First paragraph of the notice: "On these models the stator may operate at temperatures that exceed the manufacturer's recommendation when the vehicle is ridden in lower-rpm (below 5,000 rpm) duty cycles." And actually...your other problem *could* be VSS. It could be clutch switch (that one you can test in Diag mode, clutch state 0 or 1; if it doesn't change, there's your problem). It could be the instrument cluster itself. I *guarantee* you they won't order a part without doing the diagnosis themselves. Not only do they not do it that way, but HD won't let 'em. I worked there for six years, and was the Buell specialist for the last two (when they created the position), and they wouldn't even order ME an oil cooler for my Uly when I assured them it was leaking. I had to bring it in so they could look at it - if they don't cross that T or dot that i, warranty won't pay for the job. Most times, however...they will let you take the bike back and ride while the part is on order. And when you're there, do me a favor. Frank (one of the service writers) owns a red and black Ultra Limited. Put a thumbprint (don't scratch anything, just a thumbprint) dead center in the windshield for me - he'll know who it's from immediately! For the Erik ECM...EMAIL them. Ask about what you're seeing. I can't imagine they'd program it without the stator harness upgrade software...but ask Michael and make sure. And I'm sorry to drop into "noob" mode, but there are too many people who think the harness update is for CHARGING, and not for HEAT and SURVIVAL. Most of the whining I see here and out on the road is because "when I got the update done my voltage dropped, I thought it was supposed to fix that...". It just gets frustrating, sorry. In Froggy's case...he had airflow over the radiators and the engine cases, likely cooler weather up in NY than we have here in MD, and having the bike OFF at a light means he's not making any "new" heat, or trying to make electricity with a hot stator. For you here in MD? How hard were you running it right before the light? How hot did you get it, and how long between that and sitting at the light (i.e. heatsoak)? How's your coolant level (or, for that matter, your CT on the display)? Oil level? What oil do you use? I, like Froggy, have yet to see under 13.x volts anytime other than stuck in traffic at a light (I, unlike Froggy, tend to leave my bike running...), and it clears up nearly immediately once I get out of traffic, and into RPMs and airflow again. Stock CR, latest factory flash (what...152? I forget the number), Syn3, HD coolant (had to top it off at the first service, it was waaay low). Stock muffler. 10% throttle (or even 5%) at 5k rpm is totally docile to bystanders, nets me decent fuel mileage (nowhere near Froggy-land...but I'm good with that), and shows 13.7-14.2v on the display the whole damned time. I can also run downtown, in traffic...and NEVER shift until I get off Market Street. It's like an automatic transmission, LOL. | ||
| Jeepinbueller |
Haha, I'll have to hit Frank up with the thumbprint! Though I mostly speak with Ron -- not by choice b/c he's just always there when I need work done! Everyone I've dealt with, including Frank, have been uber cool with everything I've thrown at them. Ron even let me give them my stock ECM to throw in after I accidentally left Erik's ECM in there. When I got home, I went through the usually checking over including checking the clutch switch ... everything's working a-ok from what I can see. I did have a few very brief VSS hiccups in the past but it went back to reading about five seconds later. This time, it was off the whole second 1/2 of my ride home to good 'ole Carroll County. I used to work at a Jeep dealership so I think I'm a little more level-headed than the usual service customer. The techs have no control over what happens, and it usually comes down to corporate protocol. Hopefully they'll have a VSS in stock. Since you worked there, is bringing it in for diagnosis and waiting allowed? Then after they diagnose and order the sensor, if need be, then ride home until they call with the part a few days later? That would work out a lot better for me and I'd be happy with that. For the weather we've been having here, my CT is usually anywhere from 178-198F. Cruising today I was seeing right around 178F on I-70, and when I hit the curves outside of town it rose to around 195F since I was up around 7-8K the whole time. That's right before I got to the stoplight of MD-97 and MD-140 in Westminster ... and the battery light. I was sitting in the left turn lane for maybe 2-3 minutes, but I had a good stint on MD-140 to allow cool off. Oh well ... she'll have a full charge overnight and we'll see what happens tomorrow morning. PS, if you're close, we should ride some time. I could use some road time with some one better than me, lol. (Message edited by JeepinBueller on September 14, 2010) | ||
| Lew360 |
I wish I was closer to Fredrick, but Old Glory in Laurel has taken good care of me. Britney always knows what is going on and has me in and out as fast as possible. My longest wait was the clutch weep and water pump leak. I could have picked it up and rode till the parts came in but I was on vacation and not riding anyway. My muffler has started to rust and I mentioned it so Britney called HD but they seem to think it is the area weather that has caused the problem and won't warranty the muffler. I guess I'll wait till it rusts through and see what they say then. (Message edited by Lew360 on September 14, 2010) | ||
| Dannybuell |
spray some brake cleaner/lacquer thinner on an abrasive pad, scrub the muffler and clean it off. Spray it with Home Depot/Lowes stove pipe Hi-temp or Auto parts Hi temp rattle can paint. It's called maintenance. Preventative maintenance, get it powder or ceramic coated! | ||
| Dannybuell |
Jeepinbueller =' in "raging boner" mode 'LMAO :-) Froggy - ' when I was at a red light with the engine off ' LMAO :-) :-) 2x | ||
| Thedavyboy |
JeepinBueller your not doing anything wrong , what is happening to your bike is just a poor design . My bike went back for the stator and regulator 3 times in 2 years . You should be able to ride that bike at idle and have it charge the same as if you were at speed . | ||
| Jdugger |
> You should be able to ride that bike at idle and have it charge the same as if you were at speed . Anyone remember the Nighthawk 650? It wouldn't charge the battery below 2600 RPM. The 1125r is hardly the first bike that likes to be actually ridden. | ||
| Maximum |
I agree that you are not doing anything wrong...the wire harness "upgrade" is doing exactly what it was designed to do...but it does seem to me to be a band-aid. I haven't ridden the 1125 since May (because of being deployed) but I had the harness job done in April and immediately had all the same symptoms you mentioned. Only happens when hot...which as Ratbuell explained..is what it is supposed to do. At a stoplight my voltage will drop as low as 11.7, but normally will not go below 11.8 - 12.0...even with the high beams on. My biggest issue with the system like that is that my GPS...which is connected through the accessory plug in the front...cuts out every time I come to a stop light. Very annoying...albeit not as annoying as a stator failing and leaving you stranded. | ||
| Ratbuell |
If you call Ron or Frank, and explain it to them, there should be no problem with scheduling a "wait" checkout time, and riding home. If the trouble tree is very big, though, it could take a while...so bring an iPod or a smartphone for web browsing. The phrases "breakout box" and "trouble tree" never equate to a quick diagnosis  Honestly, I don't watch my gauges much. I keep an eye on that big red needle, and occasionally on those two or three large digital numbers under it...but that's about it. I live eight minutes north of HDF. Dunno about "better rider"...but I did apparently scare the crap out of a Suzuki SUV driver on the way home tonight. Right hand sweeper, good surface, right by my house (I know the line, and every divot in the road)...knee just skimming the shoulder...nowhere near the centerline...and the guy stops dead in the turn. I guess thinking I was gonna go wide or something. I was doing over 80 on a rural, cowpasture-type, 35mph road. Whooops, heheh... But yeah, we can definitely ride sometime. You going to Buelltoberfest by chance? Be nice to have a riding companion, especially on the BRP... | ||
| Jeepinbueller |
Okay so a new development on this VSS front: My horn and my brake light was out ... not the running brake light, the brake applied brake light (light wouldn't illuminate brighter upon brake application) so I checked the electrical manual and found that the horn and brake light use the same 10A fuse in the fuse box. Sure enough: blown. Replaced. Everything works fine now ... even the VSS? Does the VSS use the same fuse as well, bc I'm getting indicated speed and gear indicator now!! We'll see how this develops ... I've got a box full of fuses now so if it pops again I'll be okay. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Check your taillight wiring. They pull the tail section bodywork off to do the harness update, you may have an intermittent wire pinch going on back there. Tail light just runs from fuse central, to the taillight. Brake light circuit has wires that go to both brake levers. Make sure both sets of connectors (front and rear brakelight switches) are seated tightly and not covered in crap/corrosion. Also check your horn wiring to make sure there's no rubs or burns. I don't have the electrical book, just the shop manual. Trace the wires and see what all else is on that circuit - just to make sure you check all the wires involved. Glad you found it! (or...found something, anyway!) | ||
| Black |
Thanks Ratbuell! | ||
| Ratbuell |
BLACK!! How the hell are ya? Was down in your neck of the woods the other night (Nissan Pav.) for a concert, only saw one other Buell - a black Uly with full bags. Thought I might see more... We should ride sometime, since I have weekends off (mostly) these days | ||
| Jeepinbueller |
Thanks Ratty-tat, I figured I either had a good pinch somewhere or there was a bad connection somewhere. I put a '10 taillight on my '09 so I had to crimp on some good spade connectors to make the connections: I started there before I even replaced the fuse at the Advance Auto parking lot, lol. Everything looked good and clean ... I also checked the factory bullet connectors under the pillion ... looked good and tight. All connections at the handlebar controls look good (I took every connection I could find and applied terminal cleaner and dielectric grease when I first got it). If it pops again I'll get out the FLUKE ... we'll see. Thanks for the heads up. | ||
| Black |
Ratbuell, Been riding the 2009 (Banshee Betty). Decided to put it through its paces. The guys at Winchester have a lot of confidence in the stator mod, so for the last two weekends I have done the DC to Winchester via US 50 run. That gives you lots of stop and go near the city and the ability to stretch things out over the mountain. Have not had voltage drop below 13.2 at any point. This is with coolant temps well above 205. Seems to be working as designed. I keep the RPMs above 5 grand whenever possible....don't like lugging the engine. It's possible a lot! Will keep you posted. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
"...At the same time I swap the E.B.R. ECM back in -- because it's been confirmed on BWB that their ECMs can control the stator using the harness update and relay -- and then ride off home..." Slightly off the main thread - I have my bike booked in with the dealer for next week, they have the harness, a new stator and a new battery if required. Voltage on my bike fluctuates all over the place and battery now doesn't like being charged and is difficult to start if it's been sitting for 24 hours+. I'm running an E-B-R ECM - should I install the standard ECM before I take it to the dealer or leave as is? | ||
| Ratbuell |
Running the EB computer shouldn't cause any warranty issues...but on the "just in case" front, might want to toss in the stocker just in case the dealer tries to "help" and put the latest flash in the computer. Not sure what would happen with the EB computer if they tried to update it...but no sense finding out the hard (wrong) way. | ||
| Dannybuell |
I have a sneaky suspicion that the stock ECM's are deliberately lean to force higher RPM operation. This is what the 1125 manual says about gear changes. GEAR CHANGE MPH First to second 15 Second to third 25 Third to fourth 35 Fourth to fifth 45 Fifth to sixth 55 Those are not 5000 rpm shift points are they? Can any of you shift at those points w/o lugging the engine or discharging the battery? I love the bike warts and all! | ||
| Bueller4ever |
They are deliberately lean to pass emissions. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
"GEAR CHANGE MPH First to second 15 Second to third 25 Third to fourth 35 Fourth to fifth 45 Fifth to sixth 55" I'm with Bueller4ever - 55mph in 6th is about 3500rpm or so? About where an 1125 runs leanest? And produces the least emissions maybe? A lot of modern vehicles have similarly unrealistic low speeds in their owner manuals... and I could be wrong, but I'd guess that's exactly how they're meant to be ridden/driven... or at least that's what they tell the EPA and CARB  | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
"...might want to toss in the stocker just in case..." Thanks Joe. I think I will change them over, just to be safe and so there's no questioning whether it's causing any issues. | ||
| Jeepinbueller |
I would definitely change your ECM over to the stocker Lemon ... I left my EB in the there and, thank God, the cool service writer called me up and said if I didn't bring them the stocker that they might not be able to do the warranty work. I would call Magnuson-Moss on it, but I brought it in and they swapped it over anyway because they said they'd have to flash it anyways. And I shift WAY above those speeds, lol. |
