| Author | Message | ||
     Parrick |
It seems to get good airflow in this position and is not touching any of the plastic parts. It doesn't seem to get any hotter than anything else under the seat. | ||
| Sekalilgai |
Larry, I think the FH012 Mosfet regulator is still a shunt regulator. A fella over at the GS boards ran some comparisons between it and a series regulator:  I plagiarized from here http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.ph p?t=161397 If you wander about the Shindengen website, it'll make sense. The conventional shunt RR regulates post-rectification. The MOSFET unit shunts in the 'lower half' of the rectifier.(no 'separate' shunting) The series unit regulates by means of going 'open circuit' during the rectification process (no secondary shunting). | ||
| Sekalilgai |
Parrick That is a neat install, I've got the same regulator sitting in a box....not sure what I'm waiting on really....BTW did you run the new reg with the 'harness' before pulling it out? just curious | ||
| Reepicheep |
EECE, spot on. The only clarification I would add would be to say the amount of current is also limited (and perhaps primarily limited) by the strength of the permanent magnets in addition to RPM. The wire size will probably determine long term reliability, not so much maximum power. The other clarification to make is that MOSFET is just the kind of semiconductor in use. I could easily design a shunt MOSFET regulator. So seeing MOSFET does not necessarily mean "switching" or "series". Great discussion here. MOSFETS are one of the coolest devices I have worked with, I just started playing with them this year. A three terminal device, put your + on one end, your - on the other, and the amount of current that flows through them is proportional to the voltage on the other terminal. If you just switch that voltage between "really high" and "ground", the thing basically acts like a relay, and can carry massive current (for their size). (JFETS and BIFETS are different, FWIW. Thats where I was going wrong. I knew what JFETS were and how to use them (major PITA) and dismissed MOSFETS for my hobbiest stuff. Darn shame, a lot of problems I solved in my hobbyiest playing around over the past 20 years could have been done much better and easier with a MOSFET). I always wanted to try and design a true switching regulator, but it was always really hard and would have taken a lot of work. Now that I am playing with PIC microcontrollers and understand MOSFETS though, I am tempted to give it a go. So many projects, so little time, and I found a local 1972 Kawasaki 250 enduro with a locked up engine that I am trying desperately and daily not to call the seller about. So far so good, but when fall comes around, if he still has it, I'm not sure I will be able to resist... :/ Cool stuff... | ||
| Parrick |
Sekalilgai, No I did not run this regulator with the harness. All the stock parts are still in place but I bypassed the harness. | ||
| Sekalilgai |
Parrick, Thanks! Mine has been behaving 'expectedly' since the mod and I'm not sure to fix what ain't broke. Reepicheep....PICs are fun indeed! | ||
| Milt |
Today was my first time out since getting my bike back from the stealership. I watched the voltage display carefully, throughout the day. So carefully that I didn't see the cop with the radar gun. Darn it. I'm still worried about my electrical system, but WOW it was fun to ride again. | ||
| Eece_ret |
@Dannybuell ROFL I cannot believe you got that! If ever we meet beers on me! It goes back to college when I changed majors (MV Diff Eq was the death nail...), so I kinda retired before statrting...  I also worked as an electrician while in college (tuition an all..) and completed about 85% of the EECE program before changing and obtaining a different BS. So while no expert I remember a thing or two (not more than three...) It also happens to NEVER be in use anywhere so I happily continue using it  @Sekigali D'Oh!  However from your graphs it appears something exists that would perform in a way descirbed above?? (ie minimalize load on the stator) (Message edited by eece_ret on August 08, 2010) | ||
| Parrick |
There are a couple of companies making this type of regulator: Compu-Fire & Cycle Electric. They are called series-type regulators and operate by essentially "unplugging" the stator when the battery is at full charge. It seems like a simple enough concept so I have to wonder why none of the manufacturers are using this type of equipment. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Parrick - Sekalilgai posted graphs of Compu-Fire v.s. FH012 MOSFET. Compu-Fire was under performing, unless I read it wrong. | ||
| Blk09r |
It doesn't look like either Compu Fire or Cycle Electric make a regulator that is rated for 50 amps though. | ||
| Sekalilgai |
The gentleman on the GS forum (posplayr) was indeed comparing the Compu-fire with the FH012. The apparent 'take away' (not clear in these charts) is that, while regulating, there is overall less current flowing in the stator...meaning less heat. more details of his work from the same thread here: http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/FH012AA_Charg ing/SSR_vs_FH012AA.pdf I believe the challenge behind series regulators doing synchronous chopping of the stator outputs is the noise (transient voltage spikes) that occur during the 'disconnect'. The battery is a sluggish cap in this case. So you don't really get something for nothing. In a way, I think the Buell harness fix (if it remains durable) is a nice compromise. Slow speed switching with the benefit of greater visibility by the ECU (RPM, coolant temp, ambient temp, fan control, road speed,...target voltage) to make decisions as to when and how long to disconnect. Same concept, but much slower (macro-level) switching. Consider this, the ECU programming could 'swag' a duty cycle of low-high RPM usage (hey maybe even learn) and permit the state of charge to drop...say to 75% with the expectation that in your ride there'd be a point when the stator is generating more than needed (less bat) and use it to charge the battery instead of burning it off as heat. Just my speculation. Someone should correct me but isn't disconnecting one leg of the stator effectively taking 2 phases out of the equation, i.e. leaving only 33% charging capacity? I'm guessing that a regulator like the FH012 allows a stator/rotor combination the ability to generate more useful power sooner (due to lower losses in the rectification/reg process). That it is now used on late model CBRs and quite universally across the big Yamaha lineup may just be an indication of the future of shunt style regulators. Honda had an issue with its CBR charging and wound up extending portions of the warranty a few years back. Maybe (guess) something like the FH012/FH014 allowed Honda to return to a less aggressive/more durable wind (fewer poles, heavier gauge wire) on its stators. Under the tri-fecta conditions of low-speed, high ambient temp, high load (fans)simply getting the stator/rotor to generate more sooner (for a set target output voltage) may not be so hot(!). Actually the price of the higher low-speed indicated voltage is more current/heat running through the charging circuits. So maybe the satisfaction of higher low-speed indicated voltage should come from lower consumption as opposed to a more aggressive regulation scheme. Or maybe keep the FH012 AND the harness. I'll stop babbling now  Honda stator warranty extension http://www.1000rr.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40343 (Message edited by sekalilgai on August 09, 2010) | ||
| Hootowl |
Reep, Read up on the construction of field effect transistors. Neat stuff. They carry high current with very low resistance because there is no PN junction. The N channel is "choked" by a P type ring (hence field effect), instead of having a conducting region that grows or shrinks between two PN junctions. | ||
| Tpoppa |
In a way, I think the Buell harness fix (if it remains durable) is a nice compromise. Slow speed switching with the benefit of greater visibility by the ECU (RPM, coolant temp, ambient temp, fan control, road speed,...target voltage) to make decisions as to when and how long to disconnect. Same concept, but much slower (macro-level) switching. Consider this, the ECU programming could 'swag' a duty cycle of low-high RPM usage (hey maybe even learn) and permit the state of charge to drop...say to 75% with the expectation that in your ride there'd be a point when the stator is generating more than needed (less bat) and use it to charge the battery instead of burning it off as heat. Just my speculation. Someone should correct me but isn't disconnecting one leg of the stator effectively taking 2 phases out of the equation, i.e. leaving only 33% charging capacity? What is you theory for dropping 1 leg actually reducing charging capacity to 33% and not 66%? Personally, I think the harness upgrade works for MOST situations. But the situations it doesn't work for can leave you on the side of the road. It's a cheap fix (seriously, could the harness upgrade cost HD more than $4) to a problem that needs a redesigned stator. Idling in traffic with both fans running (CT over 205) is my biggest concern, my volts keep dropping. Forget using the high beams. Forget adding heated grips, using a heated vest, or any add on that consumes any significant amount of power. Another thing I've noticed. After a ride, if I attach my battery tender: --Pre-harness upgrade, the tender would show a full charge in less than 10 minutes. --Post-harness upgrade, it takes 2-8 hours for the tender to show a full charge. (Message edited by tpoppa on August 09, 2010) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
took the R out for the first time to some hard twisty riding yesterday and I am not sure what was happening internally, but the charging system performed very adequately. As a matter of fact the IC showed high 13s most of the time and was at 14.1 for a period on the way back into town. sure would be interesting is someone knew this new stator logic | ||
| Dannybuell |
Fresnobuell - Your profile says you have an 08. These issues are 09+ issues. | ||
| Tpoppa |
http://w4t3pw.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pQLDJCVXFP9e ju6oOq1vrh_EOpgqmqF6m4vtlT79E1cOBdSVsH00dJIKbXXCsT 6qJ_PM_ZDGBKegU0eI-7qeYoa90pGJFKHrO/P1010022.JPG?p sid=1 It's hot today. That photo is after about 4 minutes of idling after a quick ride. I could easily be stuck in traffic for much longer. (Message edited by tpoppa on August 09, 2010) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Fresnobuell - Your profile says you have an 08. These issues are 09+ issues. I have 2009 as well. I updated my profile. I was on the 2009 yesterday and the results are as posted above.  Looks like the bike electrically is much more suitable for riding hard in the twisties than stop and go in the City. | ||
| Blk09r |
Tpoppa, do you think you might have battery issues as well? I would think the battery should be able to maintain 12v for at least 5 minutes of idling even with the charging system doing nothing. | ||
| Tpoppa |
I'm pretty sure my battery is OK. The stator, VR, and Battery have all been replaced under warranty. Blk, I agree that the battery should be able to last 5 minutes or so. In fairness, it probably did. Each time I'm stuck in traffic I notice that the volts fall to 12.4, then the next stop is 12.3, 12.2 and so on. The battery is gradually getting drained by stator that is not keeping up at low RPMs. Most of my riding is away from traffic, but the next time the hwy is backed up due to an accident or construction there is a good change I'll be pushing | ||
| Ezblast |
Fresno - I hit an 11.8 doing the top of morthgate to the bottom of southgate in Danville - started that run at 13.4 - I think the serious twisties will screw things up as well, will try Morgans Territory this weekend to confirm - lol - last weekend became the wife's weekend. EZ | ||
| Dannybuell |
Tpoppa - That is a very scary picture!! How many miles do you have on the new setup. Whose of ECM are you using? | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I think the serious twisties will screw things up as well, I am just reporting what I found yesterday. I wasn't sure what to expect after the few days of riding around town and seeing low voltages and plenty of battery lights on the cluster. But I have to say it was refreshing to see the 14.1 on the IC as I hit the straight parts on the way back into town. It sure would be great to know exactly the logic that is going into this harness. Not only would it shed light on why our bikes are doing what they are dong, but it might shed some light on harnesses installed incorrectly. ???????? | ||
| Tpoppa |
Stator & VR replaced less than 2,500 miles ago. Battery replaced about 1k ago. Stock ECM, current flash. Bike is stock. Dealer has looked at it a few times & I believe the harness upgrade is installed properly. Perhaps my stator is failing again. Perhaps the harness upgrade cannot accommodate idling in hot weather. Perhaps both. | ||
| Dannybuell |
I have about 2000 miles on my new stator. 3400 on harness and 4000 on bike. Right after I flip the kill switch I see 12.0v and the battery light comes on. I saw this with the old stator. Battery Tenders are a crutch. How good can it be for the battery to be continually drained to a sub par voltage? How good can it be for my confidence in it's ability to start the next time? | ||
| Ezblast |
The fan running after the bike is turned off - runs a lot longer in the summer. EZ | ||
| Blk09r |
Danny- Those numbers wouldn't alarm me. I believe the lights will stay on after the kill switch is is flipped and I know the fans will keep running. That kind of load will easily bring the battery to 12v. The battery light is on because the charging system isn't charging. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Blk09r - THX | ||
| Daniii |
My riding friend has just had the harness installed, on the way here (Sturgis), and now she has low voltage issues. Naturally it was working fine, before the fix. My bike, riding alongside hers, is at 13.7 while hers is continually dropping. After about 70 miles with a fully charged battery, she actually saw 9.5 while stopped in traffic. (I had the harness installed a few months back and have had zero charging issues. Naturally, we are 10 hours from the installing dealer. :-( So, guesses: 1.) Voltage regulator 2.) Stator 3.) Bad connection somewhere Guesses? | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
daniii, I would guess that it is a bad install. Especially if it was fine before the install. If it is continually dropping, i wonder if the dealer screwed up so bad that the stator isn't hooked up at all, maybe it is just sucking the juice out of the battery? |
