| Author | Message | ||
     Froggy |
Beats me, I haven't figured it out yet. All I know is that I and all the locals I ride with have never experienced this. No Kool-Aid required to see that it is more than just the machine at fault here. I never once said this guy was not normal or lying, so please don't spout crap like that. They rode his bike for an extended period of time and found nothing wrong. Does that mean nothing is wrong? No, but it does make me wonder if there is more factors at play than previously thought. I shut my bike off in traffic because I can, not because I have too, there is a difference. | ||
| Syonyk |
Riding at higher RPM at lower speeds normally runs up a higher temp. Maybe cruise in a lower gear and shift earlier. Unless you are racing, this is conductive to better fuel economy, engine, tire, and oil life, and a cooler running bike. I'm not saying to lug the motor but you can stay down closer to 3.5K RPM. *waves* I do just that if I'm stuck in traffic - I rarely see 4k RPM as I keep the revs as low as possible. It really doesn't matter. I'm wondering if there's some validity to a comment posted earlier about the air temp input to the ECU - if the ECU is leaning out the mixture to deal with the reported-as-hot intake air, it will be getting closer to peak EGT. This may be a case where there's essentially a "thermal runaway" - bike gets hot, ECU leans it out, making the bike hotter, so the ECU leans it out more... etc. There are a few ways to test this. The first would be to see if relocating the air temp probe helps - if so, then it's probably doing this. The second would be for someone with a wideband to watch the AFRs at idle as the temps go up. If the AFRs lean out as the bike gets hotter, this would support this theory. Really, under ideal conditions, the bike should enrichen the mixture as the engine gets hot, as this will cool the combustion. Or lean the he** out of it, well lean of peak EGTs. But most motors don't run well like this, and you need very well balanced injectors to pull it off smoothly. Also, I'll be personally very interested to see if the race ECU fixes this. I've got one on order (woo!) and will be dealing with hot and slow riding at least a few more times before the end of the summer. | ||
| Timtowtdi |
If you start your bike cold and let it idle on a hot day, will it get hot enough to burn you? | ||
| Oddball |
Froggy, It might have been interesting if the rep had taken Mavrick along on the ride. Since he brought up the question of Mavrick's riding style. Mavrick would have been able to see if the rep rode anything like him and perhaps been able to say something like these current conditions (traffic, air temp, bike readings) are when it feels excessive to him or caused the burns he claims. Maybe even let the rep critique his riding under the same conditions. Wouldn't that allow a fair exchange of information from both sides so everyone could hopefully come to a mutually satisfying conclusion? Maybe that's an idealistic dream that just isn't likely to happen? | ||
| Ezblast |
I don't know - I really enjoy my CR and though it got to 195 CT , the frame though hot, wasn't scalding. It should be warmer in July - lol - so we'll see. I expect temperatures in the 90s at least. The performance of the new Erik Buell Racing ignition an awesome improvement in overall to the bike's abilities - the ability to check CT and BV at a glance from start up a nice plus as well. My first thought is to watch and see if moving the AIT sensor would be necessary. EZ | ||
| Dms |
Alrighty, here's the result of my commute home: Bike: 2008 1125R Modifications: E B R Race ECM, Barker exhaust, ceramic coated headers, Buell fairing lowers Ambient temperature: 85°F in shade Distance: 12 miles in about 25 minutes, stop & go city driving, rarely out of 3rd gear, RPMs usually in 3k-4k range, never over 6k Highest indicated AT during the ride: 100°F Highest indicated CT during the ride: 190°F (All measured temperatures +/- 3F or so) Frame - Right side leg/knee area (Gripskins): 125F Frame - Left side leg/knee area (Gripskins): 123F Frame - Right side above the pod: 118F Frame - Left side above the pod: 115F Frame - Right side near swingarm: 130F Frame - Left side near swingarm: 129F Fairing over right pod cover: 97F Fairing over left pod cover: 95F Rear header pipe: 215F Front header pipe: 185F Header pipe going to muffler: 180F Muffler: 155F Front of fairing: 91F Airbox cover: 93F Air scoop leading into airbox: 135F The temperatures are listed generally in the order I took them. The tank was definitely hot to the touch, but I didn't keep my hand on long enough to get burned. With full gear on the frame wasn't uncomfortable while riding. As I finished up with the measurements, I started hearing the telltale bubbling of boiling fuel coming from the tank. The bike was running fine with no surging or stumbling; next time I'm out in near-100F temperatures I'll repeat these measurements. I'm amazed it got so hot in such a short, sedate ride. In short: Any of you northern types have a spare room I could stay in for the summer? I'm mostly housebroken. | ||
| Froggy |
Dave, thank you for posting that info.  Syonyk, according to the various IAT sensor relocation threads, the sensor only plays a minor role in adjusting the fueling, so I doubt that will affect it much if at all. Also, if you are in traffic, its going to heat soak from the engine anyway and read high. Just my thoughts though. | ||
| Dannybuell |
DMS - THX. Please follow the DMS sequence in presenting temp readings, I am keeping a spreadsheet to see if we can learn anything. THX | ||
| Koji52 |
The frame of my 1125R definitely gets to burn temps. Never noticed it in the wintertime but in 80 degree heat, definitely does. Haven't had problems through jeans or riding pants but touching with bare hands is a no no for more than a few seconds. | ||
| Koji52 |
I should add that i live down the street from Mav, use the same stealership, and probably ride a little more aggressively than him, so... (Message edited by koji52 on July 01, 2010) | ||
| Mavrick813 |
Hey guys, So I went to Brian's to get the Buell as I was told by the HD Rep their is nothing wrong with my bike and that maybe when the weather warms up I can bring it back and let them have another crack at it. Regardless, I get their and the bike isn't ready to go home yet. The Service Now light still comes on, and the Check oil light still comes on. None of my service invoices are done, and the last thing put in the computer is an open job on the bike which basically means. Don't take the bike we're not done with it yet. Now, didn't the HD Rep tell me the bike was fine? Didn't he also tell me to come and get it? Either way. As far as riding style goes I don't think that's why the Rep didn't have any trouble today. This problem is Intermittent at best. I've never said it burned me every time I got on it. I have said it's gotten hot enough to Melt my fairings, Bubble and peal my decals, and ONCE burn my leg. The riding conditions on the day I got burned were High temps of 97+ with a High Humidity in Bumper to bumper traffic. The HD rep took the bike for a clear run up 295 north to a local town. Zipped around their and then cruised back... The time of day which he took the bike for a ride would indicate practically NO TRAFFIC. And todays temp was about 18 degrees lower then when I got burned.... At this point I don't really care about anything other then having a bike to ride. My bike has spent more then 45 days in the dealers garage since I bought it in October. First a turn signal, then another turn signal, then Fuel spilling out the vent in ammounts that were enough to fill a coffee can in about an hour. Fuel boiling in the tank to the point that if you took the cap off it would Hiss like the tank was under pressure. The bike was in the shop for an extended period of time for the dealer to decide I needed a new tank cap and AT sensor as well as Insulating the frame. Then I take the bike home bring it back get the sensor and cap as well as the frame insulated. and the temps read more normal then the readings I had been getting but the bike gets even hotter and burns me. Their is OBVIOUSLY something going on with THIS bike, their has been a heat issue from day one btu quite honestly I didn't know their was an issue untill the first service. The fuel boiling and leaking out the vent is a known issue and I thought that it was something I had to deal with minus getting the Cali Can. BUT the new Cap and insulating the fram had practically stopped the leak and reduced it to a few drops here and their. BUT on this ONE occasion in certain conditions the bike got more then warm. IT GOT HOT. Period. Theirs no way around it. I was riding it as I had since I bought it and I got BURNED. So, whether the problem is with my riding style or with the conditions of that one particular day, or with the bike it doesn't matter. The bike had a reaction that caused me physical injury that was unavoidable. We're not talking about a muffler or header that I can avoid with my leg. We're talking about the frame of the bike that my legs are supposed to be touching. And if I can't touch the frame of the bike with my leg for any reason then the bike can't be ridden as it was designed to be. ALSO. My uncle bought an 1125R from Brian's HD. He bought it at the exact same time I bought mine. Rode his home the next day though because he had to wait for the bank to open to finalize his sale. His bike has run perfectly since the day he got it. He has ridden my bike and flat out told me theirs something wrong with it. It doesn't ride anything like his. He's been riding for almost 30 years and currently owns a Ninja 500, a Yamaha YZF and a Buell 1125R. I trust his opinion in this matter. He's not a tech and can't tell me exactly what is wrong. BUT he can tell me that His bike runs cooler, accelerates smoother, and idles better. His bike also doesn't randomly stall while sitting at a light holding the clutch in and your hand off the gas. It also DOESN'T put 2nd degree burns on his leg. I appreciate all the constructive ideas coming out about moving the AT sensor, upgrading to the 2009 parts etc etc. Hopefully Brian's HD can help me figure this out. ALSO, I want everyone to know. I like the guys at my Dealership. Jay in service goes above and beyond. I feel bad about this whole thing. It feels to me like their getting just as screwed as me because they didn't manufacture this issue. They were just the middle man. The guys at Brian have been very decent with everything that has been going on. And quite frankly they can only do so much. Like I said before at this point I don't care about any of the B/S with the burn, the bike constantly being at the shop or any of that. I just want a bike that is SAFE and Fun to ride. Hopefully H/D will help me get to a point where this is possible. Mike | ||
| Mavrick813 |
OH and on a side note. The bike also started the Clutch weep. Noticed it when I dropped the bike off yesterday. That's one of the things on the Open Job list. I'm assuming the HD Rep didnt' have the service invoice in his had when he was hooking it up to the Digitech. Mike | ||
| Dannybuell |
Mavrick813 - Do you have access to a digital thermometer? | ||
| Mavrick813 |
Yeah.... I have one. I have to replace the battery. It's small enough t keep in my pocket so it's going to be with me from now on while I'm riding... But first I have to get the bike back... | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
also if you haven't already i'd love to see some pics of the blistered decals and melted body work when you can | ||
| Mavrick813 |
The body work is more Warped then melted I will try. But it's hard to see it. Only reason I noticed is because I seen the header touching the fairing and noticed it burned through the Insulation and started to melt the fairing. The decals so far were rolled back out with a little adhesive and are just pealing back again. When I get the bike back I'll try to get pics of that too. | ||
| Hildstrom |
I live in San Antonio, TX and the frame on my stock 09 gets way too hot when the ambient temperatures are in the 90s+ and travel speeds are too low. If I get stuck in stop & go traffic for even a couple of minutes, the frame temperature rises very quickly. It definitely gets hot enough to make me keep my jean-covered legs off of it. If traffic dissipates and I can speed back up, I usually ride for a few minutes with my knees out to increase airflow around the outside of the tank, but then I'm basically holding myself up with the bars. It can also get pretty unbearably hot if I have to ride through 20mph to 25mph zones for any length of time. Other than the heat/gas boiling issue and potential future stator issues, I love it. I'm thinking about adding a manual switch to disconnect the rear fuel injector. That would significantly cut down on radiated and convective heat transferring to the frame tank from the rear header. It would also add some internal air cooling to the rear cylinder and reduce the heat load on the cooling system. I certainly don't need the extra available power in the conditions where heat is an issue. I tested this briefly, when I denoided, by disconnecting the rear injector connector and starting/revving the bike. It ran fine and the computer correctly detected the problem after a few seconds and flashed something like "REAR INJECTOR DISCONNECTED", which makes me think it is smart enough to not alter the other cylinder's fueling. The error and check engine light went away the next time I started the bike with the injector reconnected. | ||
| Mavrick813 |
Hmmm, Interesting observation Hild. Not sure if it's something I'd want to do. But definitely worth investigating for those that would be willing to do it. | ||
| Hildstrom |
Maverick813, I just noticed in your OP that you said it was overheating and I assume you mean the overheat warning light was on. Were you riding it in that condition? Did you ever check your coolant level before you got burned and brought it in for the first service? I checked mine after reading a "Check your Coolant" thread (not having any problems) and the tank was empty and the right radiator was down a few inches. | ||
| Mavrick813 |
Wow, just got a call from the dealer. Clutch leak is bad. Needs to order parts. Gonna be a while. Sorry for the inconvenience. Cleared the Service Now and Check oil lights and they stayed off. He thinks, Not sure. But he'll check to be sure. Good thing that H/D Rep told me that the bike was fine and to come get it. Told me to just ride it till it gets hot out and then bring it back for them to check out again. Weird how he says that and the Service Manager says. I really don't think you want to ride it like this. It's not safe. The Leak is bad. So let's see, I have a bike that Burns me, Melts it's own parts, Leaks gas, Boils Gas, Has a Bad Gas Cap, Kills Turn signals, leaks clutch fluid that makes in unsafe to ride, Stalls randomly, Develops starter issues, and was sold to me with a bad AT sensor that caused the bike to break-in at 100 Degree higher then it should have. WOW, I feel special... Mike. PS Hild the Overheat light never came on, Even when I was getting temps in the 265-280 ranges. I didn't know their was a light until the first service when I told Jay about the Temps I was getting and he asked if a light ever came on. Since that service when they changed the AT sensor, I haven't had readings over 220. But I got burned. | ||
| Syonyk |
I'm thinking about adding a manual switch to disconnect the rear fuel injector. That would significantly cut down on radiated and convective heat transferring to the frame tank from the rear header. It would also add some internal air cooling to the rear cylinder and reduce the heat load on the cooling system. I certainly don't need the extra available power in the conditions where heat is an issue. I tested this briefly, when I denoided, by disconnecting the rear injector connector and starting/revving the bike. It ran fine and the computer correctly detected the problem after a few seconds and flashed something like "REAR INJECTOR DISCONNECTED", which makes me think it is smart enough to not alter the other cylinder's fueling. The error and check engine light went away the next time I started the bike with the injector reconnected. That's a very interesting solution. I know that most modern Harleys have this type of setup - you can engage a "parade mode" that cuts fuel to the rear cylinder, or if it gets hot enough, it will do it itsself at idle. I wonder if it would make enough of a difference on the 1125s, while keeping them ridable. Could you take yours for a spin around the block and see if you can ride it with the rear injector disconnected? I wouldn't mind setting up a switch for the injector if it's a useful function. That would actually be very nice while sitting in traffic if it kept temps down to sane levels. You wouldn't need it year round, but it would be useful on occasion. ... excuse for a guarded toggle switch on the bike too.  | ||
| Dannybuell |
Hildstrom - rear cutoff switch. It sounds very interesting. Let us know how it works. | ||
| Dmhines |
Rained this morning in Georgia. Went home and got the CR at lunchtime since it was clearing. Ride back to work showed IAT's around 77 degrees ... Highest CT was 181 with 175 being the average. So it seems in my situation lowering the IAT about 20 degress from the other day ... also lowered the CT by 20 degress .. Maybe the magic numbers is CT = Real IAT (not heat soaked IAT) + 100 degrees. So if it's 98 degrees outside .. your CT is gonna be 198 and you are gonna have a hot ride. 70 degrees and you have a pleasent CT of 170 ... | ||
| Kenm123t |
Lotus Used a skip fire on the LT5 for limp home mode could be a ECM flash option A Erik Buell Racing question for programming | ||
| Captain_america |
I haven't read any of this post except post#1 and I can say it's probly because your wearing some boarder hoppin' South Pole Mexican jeans IMHO haha | ||
| Mavrick813 |
"I haven't read any of this post except post#1 and I can say it's probly because your wearing some boarder hoppin' South Pole Mexican jeans IMHO" So now the reason I have second degree burns on my leg is because I don't wear the right Jeans? Is the undying blind love for Buell that Relentless. Either way, the Buell is going to be at the shop for the unknown foreseeable future. and I am still paying out the backside for a Bike I can't ride. 48 Days and counting it's been in the shop in the first 6 months I have owned it. And this time their saying it's the clutch parts. So who knows how long that's going to take to get sorted out. As for the heat issues that caused the burn. Well that's my problem, when they get the clutch sorted out I have to go out and see if it happens again... And what's worse is I am having trouble getting them to throw me a Loaner till they get this all sorted out. HD Rep has to approve that. Brian's can only give me a loaner for $75.00 a day for the first 10 days I rent it. Suggestion of the Dealer. Go rent a car, their cheaper. Mike | ||
| Budgolf |
Sorry man, all of this sucks. Especially H-D's attitude towards us now. It's twice as bad as it was before. | ||
| Kc10_fe |
Well man I guess we can carpool to Brians. My bikes been there since May 5th. My doing since I lowsided it. Lots of fun stuff going on. I think Brians does the best they can all the time. Sitting there for awhile listening to the discussions with HD puts it into perspective how screwed up the MOCO is. Even the cusotmer service folks seem to lack knowledge of the Buell. Brett and Jay really do try to get shit done. Its such a busy place with this and that going on constantly. When you hang out and observe whos coming in the door its easy to see why South Park coined a new name for HDMOCO riders. I feel out of place with no HD armored bandana on to protect my skull. The amount of do it yourselfers that come in with shit they managed to destroy with a pair of pliers and a crescent wrench is what I think eats up so much time. Anyways I have faith in Brians much more than the dealer I purchased my R from across the river. There is easily 100+ bikes downstairs that need fixing on top of the 100 or so coming in daily. I go out of my way to drop in or call to see if there is anything I can do. If anything driving there after a bad day on base to see the parade of leather wrapped warriors with kevlar bandanas cracks me up. I may be wrong but I just call it how I see it. Happy 4th  | ||
| Captain_america |
I was joking sorry my bike has been at the dealer since April 25th | ||
| Mavrick813 |
Captain, Sorry, it hit a nerve. I've been told this whole issue is my fault I need riding lessons. I've been told that I'm not supposed to let my leg touch the frame, I've been told I have to spend hundreds of dollars on stuff in order to be able to ride the bike correctly. Then your comment about the jeans and I was like WTH... It just sucks that I can't ride my bike. The lawyer is retained and something tells me I will be getting a new bike sooner then Brian's can get the Buell figured out.. On a side note, Brian's is an amazing dealership IMHO. They've gone above and beyond on 2 counts for me. And I will definitely purchase from them again if I decide I want something with HD on it.. Mike |
