| Author | Message | ||
     Freezerburn840 |
I need to check my GPS tracks, but it sure as hell was a lot more than 5 miles. okay 10 miles. They are not doing any R&D or have anyone in R&D for Buell. Service manager from a dealer near home called on Stator problems. They seem to be doing too many and wanted answers and was told that there was nobody in R&D to explain why they are even failing at the rate they are failing at. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Can someone please explain what is so different in 09 (from 08) as far as such a large difference in electrical loads? Aside from a possibly different flash that cycles the cooling fans a little more, what EXACTLY else is this EXTRA load many seem to be talking about on an 09 vs an 08? Anyone? Something isn't adding up here...literally. Thanks, mm | ||
| Slypiranna |
Kirb seems to have a reasonable possibility...sorry I didn't catch that prior to posting. | ||
| Froggy |
Sly, in case if you are not aware, the 09/10's have a higher output stator than the 08's. This was to help address charging issues a few years back when they were still working out all the kinks including excessive cluster draw. | ||
| Americanmadexb |
Man i hope Hal's has a stock pile of them for those that might need them during Homecoming!!! Ya never know I know i changed to the new harness with 580 or so miles on so i hope no damage was done to my Stator. But there has been a few times where the volts dropped down to 12.0 at a stop, and i even seen 11.7 ONCE. It has me a little worried. I have about 1,500 miles on now and HC is around the corner. | ||
| Rsh |
This doesen't seem to be just a Buell issue. The people over on the Aprilia boards have had charging issue's, and looks to have been going on for years. I have also read of a few instances on the Can Am Spyder boards as well. Does this mean all the stators are bad......No. It does seem BRP Rotax may have a problem. On the other hand if the stators are sufficient and whoever the manufacturer of the vehicle that uses the Rotax supplied stator assemblies connects up the charging system using sub standard wire harness and connector assemblies, That could be the cause of said charging issue's as well because the resistance in the wiring harness and or connectors is so high something has to give, unfortunately it is usually the stator. | ||
| Bueller4ever |
You can find stator issues with all bikes. It's a compromise. If there were room for a standard alternator, that didn't suck so much hp, then I'm sure that's what we'd all have. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Froggy, Yes, I am aware of the higher output vs the 08's...but we remain confused. Maybe you can explain this further. We have an (Nov 07 build) 08 sitting here with a stock charging system and the original battery. Running Volts is in the 13.8 range. About a year ago we had a dead battery condition that mysteriously went away. Other than that one week issue, never a problem, even with the addition of 6+amps of accessories... Now we have an fresh 09R that we are working on. The owner has received the harness letter and we are really trying to understand this prior to going back to a dealer. Nothing personal to any person or dealership but since the news last October, we are doing everything possible to discontinue support in Harley Davidson's direction. With that said, his 09 is one of those really "great day" built engines. Makes incredible power on the dyno for a stocker...based on the history of what's been shared/documented worldwide since 2008. This 09R has no additional electrical loads other than what is possibly within the ecu calibration. No charging, starting or running volt issues...but obviously, the owner is worried with all the opinions floating about. Coming mainly from the auto side of atomospheric polluters, we've added 100+ amp alternators to custom builds for decades. Not for any other reason aside from the customer wishing the extra capacity, whether they ever use it or not, it remains a mindset to them. I don't argue with a customer wishing to give us more $'s to build their way...and it's fact that the extra capacity is simply "idle". Just because there is 100+amps available (as an example) doesn't mean that the electrical system REQUIRES it. Herein lies my questioning of what is really going on with this subject. Another example...my shop has A LOT of wattage available on the input side from our electric company...but it isn't forced in, it's drawn from the loads we place upon it. So...if the electrical loads on the 08's and 09's are within a few amps of each other...then WHY would the majority of 08's still be ok and these selected 09's have such an issue if it not be a designed in flaw? I hope all of this makes sense! Lol, we are really wondering if we should just install an 08 stator (and custom flash from Erik Buell Racing  if nessesary) in his 09R and sidestep this rumored "bandaid" harness. Just so happens I've got a nice 08 stator spare in the shop...might be buying more of those up too, just like the thousand dollar throttle bodies in order to have a replacement tps sensor!~  Out of curiosity, say an 08 has a total failure...is the replacement part number for the stator and VR going to be the same as the 09 and 10 model years? Feel free to PM if needed...and thanks for any info you can share. I seriously doubt the worst case scenario would be any surprise to this group. BTW, we are getting a custom ecu from Erik Buell Racing irregardless the charging system!  ...Mainly due for the reasons we bought these bikes to begin with! Supporting BUELL! Long live Mr. Buell & Best regards, mm | ||
| Froggy |
Yep Sly I understand what you are saying. The 09's don't have higher requirements, it was more of shotgun approach to fixing some of the issues on the 08. I personally have noticed on my 09 that the battery light was significantly less likely to come on during the winter running a heated suit, vs my 08. The issue does appear to indeed be a flaw in the design that must of not cropped up in Buell's extensive testing. To be honest, I am surprised it didn't happen to me sooner, as my bike spends 99.99% of its running time RPM range that can cause issues. There have been a few people that have had an 08 motor replaced, and it was replaced by either 2009 or 10 motors. The upgrade letter says something along the lines of "Applies to 2009 and 2010 models or 2008 models that had a motor replaced". Allegedly Buell had a revised charging system in the works for 2011, but we all know what happened to that. I am curious if the 08 stator does indeed just drop right in, if so that may be the best option in the future. | ||
| Freezerburn840 |
I heard a rumor maybe Bombadier or Triumph will buy Buell when Erik comes back in 2011. I think Erik will definitely address this issue if he can ever pull away from Harley and get some real R&D on this issue. We all know Harley does not want to issue a real recall. | ||
| Pdccd |
Reminds me of a 79'GS425 I just repaired. From what i could gather, that era of japanese motorcycle was famous for crappy stators, and the industries lack of desire to solve the problem. Oddly enough, I was able to buy an upgraded super stator for this bike. This is a 30 year old bike only produced one year! Someones gotta be able to produce a better one for us. This problem plaqued these bikes for years as no one was diagnosing the problem properly. Dealers would replace voltage regulator after voltage regulator stringing customers along...Oddly, the issue resembles this one pretty closely. Improperly regulated third pole frying everything along the line and eventually the stator. Just gotta figure how to get someone to make us a super stator lol. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Froggy, THANK YOU for the info! I will post up if we find another way to resolve this without the harness being involved. Ride safe! mm | ||
| Xbud |
Here are a few links of stator rewinders, if someone contacts them and explains the problem, I am sure they can offer some kind of rebuild with a thicker wire of better quality and better shielding that could offer longevity for a descent price. This has got to be a better option than HD is offering, a temporary fix that buys them some time until the warranty on these bikes start to run out. http://www.rmstator.com/en/index.htm http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/ | ||
| Xbud |
I am learning as I go here and it looks like you can get some coating options that will prevent the stator assembly from shorting out as well. http://apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18 2754 | ||
| Coastie71 |
I talked to my local dealer and they said that I have no open recalls and that there was a charging update done in March 2010 prior to my purchase (purchased at a different dealer). I want to trust them but I also want to verify that the updated charging harness was installed. How will I know if it was completed by looking? Sorry if this is a stupid question , I'm new to this stator/charing harness issue. | ||
| Froggy |
Coastie, it is very obvious if you take off the seat. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/552123.html | ||
| Pwillikers |
From experience, '80s Yamahas had very fragile stators. Since the stators rely on being submerged in engine oil to be cooled, they were particularly sensitive to even slightly low oil levels and would overheat. The conventional wisdom said, if you had one of these bikes, prone to failure, you'd best keep the engine oil topped off. I don't know if this remedy was ever proven or dis-proven. But, I wonder if it has any lesson for our situation - especially given the difficulty of obtaining an accurate oil level reading on the 1125? I agree with what has been suggested. We must assume that both Rotax and Buell tested these engines/stators extensively and found no failures in significant numbers. I speculate that contributing factors to could possibly be any of the following: a manufacturing defect in the production stators different from the tested items (total conjecture, who knows?), a marginal design that operated reliably under narrow test conditions (exactly the correct amount of engine oil and at high RPMs) but not in the real world (most likely), or slightly low oil levels on the failing stators (who knows?). With incomplete data, we can't be confident that the harness modification will inhibit stators failure. In fact, it seems to have little effect. It may just delay an ultimate demise. I'm sure HD's interest is in minimizing their financial liability. The harness is cheap. If it extends the life of stators beyond warranty coverage, good for HD, not so for us. I have an '09 cr. My plan is to not have the harness mod installed, ride at higher RPMs and keep my oil topped off. If I have a stator failure (which won't surprise me if I do), I'll go to one of the aftermarket stator sources for a re-engineered, more reliable stator. Froggy, Have you gathered any statistics on the actual numbers of stator failures? At what mileage they failed, if they had the harness mod and failed after? How many miles after? Maybe another poll is in order? | ||
| Jdugger |
> ride at higher RPMs I think you will be shocked at how many "problems" go away when you simply operate the motor in roughly the middle of its rev range. I loaned one of my 1125r to a buddy this weekend to ride in the mountains of Arkansas. After the first stop, without any prompting he said "yea, if you keep the tach more or less pointing straight up, this motor is awesome! Fun bike!" I know Buell/Rotax did hundreds of thousands of miles of on-track testing with this bike, because I remember talking to one of Buell's platform directors about it. But, I'll bet they *didn't* go find a rider that thinks it's fun to lug the motor around town, and go figure, that's killing stators. (Message edited by jdugger on May 26, 2010) | ||
| Kirb |
"I'll bet they *didn't* go find a rider that thinks it's fun to lug the motor around town, and go figure, that's killing stators." Ok, that statement is very general and flat out shortsighted. Anyone who makes street bikes has to consider all conditions that the bike will be subjected to- city traffic, track days, touring, etc. Saying that Buell only considered track testing is absurd. The charging system is not properly designed and/or constructed. Period. The harness is a HACK PATCH that doesn't fix the real issue of stator overheating. It only prevents it by shutting down part of the stator and crossing your fingers that the bike won't be subjected to long periods of stop and go traffic.} | ||
| Xbud |
I would like to find one of these "burnt" stators and send it in for a well constructed rewind with some coating options that last. If anyone has one or knows were to get one please let me know. I think I would rather have one ready to go instead of having the bike down for a month or so waiting on one. | ||
| Tpoppa |
What is the cost of an OEM stator? | ||
| Ron_luning |
$680 | ||
| Doerman |
I am curious if the 08 stator does indeed just drop right in, if so that may be the best option in the future. Nope.. The 08 are physically different from later years. | ||
| Freezerburn840 |
The problem the dealer needs the bad stator to get reimbursed for the warranty claim. If somebody is out of warranty. They pay the $680 and then you can keep your defective part. Maybe somebody that works for a dealer can get you a defective to rewind and coat. (Message edited by freezerburn840 on May 26, 2010) | ||
| Ron_luning |
Here's just a guess at why there is an overheating problem: Specs on the alternator per Buell's website: "37-amp, permanent magnet, three-phase alternator with solid-state regulator (520W peak power)" I can't find specs on the 2008 model. However, from all accounts the 2009 model was beefed up to make up for mysterious charging inadequacies that turned out to be mostly faulty instrument clusters. So the 2009's are putting out more electrical power at all rpm compared to the 2008 bikes. Since these are permanent magnet rotors, the output AC voltage can only be controlled by engine rpm. The field cannot be altered to provide more or less power as demand goes up and down. The excess power is likely sent to ground via a shunt DC regulator. So now that the IC drain is fixed, you have an alternator putting out more power all the time that probably didn't get any extra cooling capacity added to the left side of the engine case to make up for the extra heat generated. Maybe the copper windings used the same coating that the 08 windings had. With the extra heat, that coating may be inadequate, leading to failures. Again, I have no specific knowledge of the sequence of events or the design of the 1125r/cr charging systems. This is my best guess based on generalities. | ||
| Freezerburn840 |
Ron's on to something I think. | ||
| Pwillikers |
Kirb, I agree completely - poor stator design and hack harness patch - hence my plan, WHEN my stator fails, I'm going the aftermarket route. | ||
| Kirb |
I don't think modern regulators use the old school shunt style regulation. The perm magnet generators (PMG) produce AC VOLTAGE which is converted to DC through the regulator. Ohms law still applies here. The POWER output of the stator is directly dependant of the current demanded of it. Modern regulators would only tax the PMG with the current required to maintain the load of the electronics and charge the battery. The PMG would not be 100% loaded all the time. See my early post on why the stator maybe overheating. | ||
| Ron_luning |
Kirb, Good point, it has been about 11 years since I did anything related to electronics so I'm a bit rusty. However, the AC would technically be converted to DC in the rectifier, not the regulator....take that!!!! | ||
| Kirb |
Ron, I was trying not to use too many whiz-bang techno terms, but you are correct. I just changed out some diodes yesterday on a PMG from a 2000HP engine/generator. Nice little arcy-sparky from those....woof. I'm leaning more to the low RPM causing saturation of the stator iron which would be causing very high heating issues that would melt the varnish used on the windings. |
