| Author | Message | ||
     Mountainstorm |
Well Captain America got me thinking and I went and relocated the IAT from the snorkel inlet to the dome by the filter. I located it so I could use the inner cover if I wanted. I went about it the easiest way I could. First I took the air box completely off the bike and stuffed towelling in the throttle bodies. Then I located the IAT sensor at the snorkel inlet and popped it and the grommet out of the snorkel. Using a razor knife I cut the sheathing back to expose about 3" of wire and snipped the sensor off leaving about 1-1/2" of wire at the sensor. Using some 18g wire (yellow and black is all I had on hand) I stripped and soldered on extensions leads. I popped a grommet I found laying around into the old IAT hole and fished the wires up to determine how long to make them. I chose the left side of the dome. Once I got the length sorted I snipped the wires and sheathed them and then soldered male and female spade connectors to the extension lead and matching ones to the IAT sensor. This way it would not be a PITA to remove the airbox later. For the first test ride I left the inner cover off but I intend to use the inner cover because it dampens the noise and vibration of the intakes. The IAT reading on the cluster stayed steady during my ride and I did not notice any sudden climb when I sat at idle waiting for a light. I did see the temp climb as I let the bike idle for 3 minutes during a routine oil check. Oddly the temp reported from the IAT sensor was higher than the actual ambient air temperature. I need to take another ride to check that out again, but if that's the case then the whole mod is pretty much a step backward. If (because the sensor is now located in an enclosure) the temp reading is slightly higher than what it would read from the snorkel inlet when the bike is moving obviously it would defeat the purpose of "fooling" the ECU into giving up more fuel. It's fixing to storm heavy here so I'll have to test this out with and without the airbox cover and see if I get different readings and I'll bring along a small temp sensor to check the air at the snorkel. I've got a pair of aquarium thermometers that should do the trick. Science shall prevail! Here's the pics  Inner cover will fit right over that.  Pretty much right in the flow to the throttle body.  lead extension fished through old IAT hole.  Better shot of the relocated sensor.  Vroom vroom Thanks again Cap'n. I had almost run out of things to tinker on. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
I have a side point. Why do you guys bother blocking off the throttle bodies? Unless you're twisting the throttle, the butterflies are closed. Short of dropping something as small as a grain of sand (and even then it's not very likely) down the throttle bodies, nothing will make its way past the butterflies and into the motor. I understand "better safe than sorry" but this seems like protecting against something that's almost impossible to happen. (Of course, someone who reads this will probably forgo blocking off the throttle bodies and then drop a screw or something into the intake.) | ||
| Ratsmc |
Every time I have the airfilter off on any bike I block off the throttle bodies. And I am thankful I have. First, with this mod, the drilling is likely to send plastic bits into the throttlebodies. Sure you can blow it out or something but there is still a chance of getting something in there. Then, what if, after drilling the thing out and getting plastic down in there, your wife comes home and you need to move the bike. Quick grab on the bars and, oops, you twisted the throttle a little bit by accident. There goes all that crap into your motor. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
i have seen plastic stick to exhaust valves which then required a head R&R to clear. way way better safe than sorry | ||
| Captain_america |
Cool Mountain. That's almost the exact same place I did mine. The plastic will get hot sitting at idle or in the sun. After doing mine the displayed temp is always within a couple degrees of actual after I get moving. Whereas without the mod it was anywhere between 15-50 degrees off. Flesh... I'm with you. I didn't cover the throttle bodies when I did mine... Plastic got everywhere! I just blew it out with air and everything was perfect. I think guys show it even though not required just to CYA | ||
| Jules |
I don't think the spade connectors are neccessary as the sensor just pops out of the grommet so it's just as easy to slip it out of there when removing the airbox (isn't it?) I still think this is a great mod, it would be interesting to see if there's any difference reported on a dyno (just in the fuel:air ratio) but I guess it'd be hard to tell as that's not the same as riding the bike in the real world. This definately has the potential to make a difference, especially in warmer temperatures and stop/start riding. I think I'll take the airbox off completely to do mine though, it only takes 5 mins and would almost completely remove the (small) chance of anything falling into the intakes | ||
| Anakist |
Wouldn't the point of this be, instead of "fooling" the ECU, you are giving it an accurate reading? Instead of the IAT sensor "fooling" the ECU that it is hot outside, you are giving it accurate info on the temperature of the air going into the motor. I have been planning this for a while, so good to see that it works. Are you worried about a backfire out the intake causing problems with it? James | ||
| Mountainstorm |
The idea is to get the most accurate temp reading so the engine is getting the right fueling. If you went to a mechanic and he just left the bores open as he worked you might think he was careless or sloppy. Covering the intakes or any other entrance to the engine is just SOP. I drilled the hole with the part off the bike so there was no chance of swarf falling in the engine, and yes the butterflies are closed...but it's a habit I developed from wrenching on machines. The spade connectors simplify the wiring. Otherwise you need to slip the sheathing and heat shrink pieces back and forth. If you are skipping the sheathing then I doubt it would matter. I actually hate those spade connectors but it was about to rain so I couldn't leave the bike and go on a parts run for a proper water-resistant bullet connector or whatever. If you want to go pro on the wiring make a seperate extension lead with a male Deutsch plug on one end and a female plug on the other and track down where the IAT wire plugs into the harness and simply unplug and extend the run with your new lead. That would also avoid any raised eyebrows in case of major service...just remove the extension and pop a bung in the hole and put it all back to factory. I can still go that route...just need to purchase another IAT and some Deutsch plugs and proper heat resistant sheathing. Maybe later. When the tinkeritus strikes again. | ||
| Mountainstorm |
The IAT sensor is reading 19F above ambient inside the airbox while riding. Cluster shows 73F while riding and the air temp is 54F. Before with the sensor at the snorkel inlet I was reading within 1 degree F of ambient when at highway speed. I am going to relocate the sensor back to the snorkel and report back in a bit. Could be this mod is doing exactly the opposite of what you might want. (Message edited by MountainStorm on April 22, 2010) | ||
| Aeholton |
Interesting. Before you cut the excess wire that you put on yours, would you mind trying to temporarily attaching your sensor somewhere on the fairing with a ziptie? | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Not a bad idea. I'll see what I can come up with. The lead is only about 10" extended so not a lot of wiggle room. I'll try a couple of things before I pass judgement on the mod. | ||
| Mikellyjo |
I wanted to wait for more data before I chimed in...but I think between mountainstorm and the now fingerless captain can we now make a fair assessment. 1. The IAT mounted as stock will produce hot reading while at idle but return to near ambient while riding 2. The IAT in the airbox will read warmer than ambient but consistent. So which is better for the whole process...a consistent IAT that provides a consistent A/F ratio or one that fluctuates and responds to exact A/F demand? I believe we need the fluctuations within the fuel map to allow for proper power and cooling...   | ||
| Sportster_mann |
Is it possible that the air in the airbox is actually hotter due to heat rising from the engine ? If so then a thermal barrier under the airbox base may be the way to go. | ||
| Mountainstorm |
I'm heading out now to swap the sensor around. Honestly I think Buell got it right with the snorkel location. A few minutes here and there at idle or in traffic with high temps leaning out the fuel is nothing compared to leaning out the fuel 24/7 due to engine heat. I really think consistently high temps are going to provide less power than true ambient temps at speed. You need power when you are moving, not so much sitting in traffic. Amirite? | ||
| Naiguy |
I live in some hot climate my temps are high at a stop but once I start moving the reading is spot on. I'm not moving mine! | ||
| Mikellyjo |
Mountain...you are so NOT right! I need my power when I am sitting in the Dairy Queen parking lot, reving at idle, wearing flip flops, Board shorts, wife beater and Ray Bans. Sorry, I had a squidly moment there...I think Uisrite! | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Bottom line is DO NOT MOVE THE IAT TO THE AIRBOX. It will read the air temp 11F higher than the snorkel location. Cap Locks: it's like cruise control for cool. Anyway here's the results. I used a Coralife Aquarium temp sensor to read ambient air by trapping the sensor head of the Coralife in between the fairing and radiator pod. To make sure the IAT and Coralife sensors read the same I tucked the IAT sensor beside it and took a 15 mile jaunt. After a few miles the two read outs were within 1F of each other. Ambient today is about 70F I then reinserted the IAT sensor in the snorkel when I stopped for a moment at a gas station. Temps got up to 104F as I idled the bike and it took about 30 seconds for the IAT temp to start going down after I hit the highway. After two minutes at 55MPH the IAT read 73F and the Coralife read 70F. I then took my 15 mile jaunt between 45-55 on some backroad circuit back to the gas station. Temps still stayed between 2-4F of each other the snorkel location reading higher of course. Then I swapped the IAT sensor back up to the airbox (inner cover on) and right away temps read 94F even before I turned the engine on. At idle the temps again rose to 104F. It took much longer for the IAT reading to drop and for nearly half the ride I was seeing 91F with a 70F ambient finally after about ten miles the temp dropped to 81 and stayed there. Now both times I took a slow crawl up the steep gravel drive to my home. 15 MPH in 1st for 1-1/4 miles. With the IAT in the snorkel I saw 84F steady all the way up and with the IAT in the airbox I saw 81F all the way up. If you want to "fool" the ECU put the IAT sensor in the fairing so it always reads ambient. If you want to read the correct temperature of the air entering the throttle body (which will be 11F higher than ambient) put it in the airbox. But I feel the Buell got it right by putting it in the snorkel inlet. So now I need to order another IAT sensor and a lower airbox thing. I intend to put the bike back to stock regarding the IAT location. Caveat: perhaps with the inner airbox cover off you may see a little less temperature read out on the IAT sensor than with the inner cover on. I've run out of time today to test that, but I'll give it a shot later when I can. I prefer the cover on because the noise and vibration with the inner cover off is distracting. | ||
| Bueller4ever |
dirt near tb's in pic 4? | ||
| Mountainstorm |
I cleaned it off after that. Thanks though. I just released a wasp from the inner cover  The thing is like a frigging Dyson. | ||
| Bueller4ever |
some getting in motor by the looks of it | ||
| Captain_america |
Fingerless Captain Types! Mountain, you misunderstood the reason for me relocating the sensor it seems.... Kevin_Stevens said it correctly... I am NOT trying to fool the ECU, I am trying to make it accurately see the correct temp of the air being ingested into the motor. I think that the location at the snorkel reads too hot when not moving and too cool while moving. Air passes by the IAT sensor at the snorkel while moving but does NOT necessarily go into the intake or motor. Example: Stock... we know the radiators blow hot air towards the intake. This is reflected by the stock IAT location. With my mod this is not show by the IAT because the motor is not actually ingesting all of that hot air, some yes, all... no I think the air box in it entirety heats soaks slightly which is shown by my mod which shows what the motor is taking in. Whatever temp air happens to be by the stock location is show and is what the ECU thinks is going in but is not true. | ||
| Ratsmc |
Mountainstorm, I think you might be making overly broad statement that are misleading. The reason I relocated the IAT sensor is because it was reading hi all the time. The closest I ever got to ambient was about +5 degrees. However most of the time - even at 75MPH, I was reading +15 to +30. Relocating the IAT sensor fixed this problem. If your IAT is reading correctly nearly all the time, why relocate it? This mod solved a problem I had. If you don't have the problem there is no reason to do it. This is not a performance improvement mod, it is a fix. | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Bueller4ever I think the K&N is not sealing up properly. I had a close look and yes there is a film of grime on the butterflies. I reseated the filter but the long straight edges are not inspiring confidence...they are kind of flaccid compared to the spongey blue rubber of the stock filter. Capn I understand you want a true temp reading. Problem is "truth hurts"  at least in terms of fuel in the mix...amirite? I'll take a reading as close to ambient as possible. I'm thinking about relocating the IAT sensor to a neutral location away from heat entirely, like the top of my helmet, or maybe the toe of my boot. It's just the length of cabling involved might possible throw off the calibration of the sensor. But seriously I think you'de make the best power with the sensor either in the snorkel inlet as God intended, or perhaps tucked in the fairing away from the rad exhaust and headers. | ||
| Ratsmc |
Mountainstorm, since you are posting the same message in every IAT topic, I will respond. What you experienced is not at all what I did. The IAT sensor on my bike was always +15-30 degrees higher thna ambient even at 75MPH. Relocating the IAT sensor fixed that. You did not have the same problem I did when you started so there was nothing to fix. Just because your results were different than mine does not make the mod any less legitimate. Poeple should not be relocating the IAT if they are getting a correct reading most of the time. For those of us that weren't, this was a good fix. | ||
| Kevin_stevens |
I think y'all are debating the meaning of "ambient". My interpretation in this scenario is not "external air temperature", it's "air temperature measured as close to the point where fuel gets spritzed into it as possible so the right amount gets spritzed". Even if that results in the bike being leaner, at least it's more *accurate* information, and you can adjust the maps from there. If the IAT is reading 30 degrees higher than the air is/will actually be because it's sitting at idle getting baked, or 15 degrees cooler than the air is/will actually be because it is out in the breeze instead of the warmth of the intake - IMHO neither of those are good because they don't reflect what's actually being consumed by the motor. MS - my bike is an "around-town" bike as well, and I see all sorts of variances up to 40 degrees hot within 4-5 minutes of being slowed in traffic or stopped - which may be 85% of the time in a given ride. I get your point that relocation may actually result in a leaner bike overall, but can't believe it's bad for rideability to reduce the erratic spiking. KeS | ||
| Captain_america |
KeS ..... 100% right again... | ||
| Captain_america |
Accuracy was the goal here... Not fooling the ECU to give the motor more fuel... | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Hmmm. I think the logic fails when one realizes the stock fuel map is LEAN already...in most cases a richer mixture is beneficial for the motor and any scenario that might lean it out is definitely negative. | ||
| Kevin_stevens |
Well, in that case your disconnection idea is the best one. If it reads minimum when disconnected, then by definition *All* the IAT can possibly do is to cause the bike to lean out to various degrees. So if your goal is to enrichen the bike however possible, just disconnect the thing and be done with it. My take is that the purpose of the IAT is to adjust for variances in intake temp, and there's a benefit to doing so as accurately as feasible. If the overall fueling is lean, fix the overall fueling, don't throw away the temp adjuster. :shrug: KeS | ||
| S21125r |
I guess what I take out of this whole exercise is that there are many point along the path that are heating the intake charge. We all know the intake seems to ingest some of the heated air from the fans, and Mountain seems to have confirmed that the airbox is being heat soaked as well. Fuel has been known to boil in the frame so his findings didn't surprise me. Assuming the injected fuel is boiling hot too so atomization isn't doing much to cool the charge either. So we got hot air being heated further, and mixed with hot fuel. What I think needs to be done (whether they can be is a different story...) is insulate the air box, figure out a way redirect the fan output better without butchering the pods, and potentially finding a way to get the snorkel extended without fouling the forks. If all three of those could be accomplished, I don't think it would matter much where the sensor was located. |
