| Author | Message | ||
     Al_lighton |
I just sent you some mail that touches on some of that, Dean. Some additional details: The donor bike will be either my 2008 1125R or one that Terry has access to up there. The otherwise stock headers on the bike will be modified for wideband O2 sensors on each cylinder, and the JT&S Land&Sea Dynomite Dyno has dual O2 inputs for monitoring. There will be some baseline runs for each pipe using a stock ECM with a latest flash, stock map, AFVs set to 100. Then a programmable ECM will be swapped in, and tuning runs made to get the AFR reasonably flat at a reasonable AFR, 13:1 or 13.5:1, whatever folks agree is best, for BOTH cylinders. But all will be tuned to that same AFR as best as possible given the time each pipe can be on the dyno. It won't be full maps (i.e., all throttle positions and RPMS), just WOT mapping to characterize the pipe's power curve shape and top end numbers. I don't think we'll be touching any spark tables, just fuel tables. If a manufacturer has a full EBR programmable ECM map for their pipe, we'd probably load the high throttle rows/column values into the ECM if it will save us time getting to that flat AFR curve. But we'll change the same columns/rows on each ECM, with the goal of getting the AFR as flat as we can in the time we have. For manufacturers with multiple pipes, we'll do the one they choose first, and get through all the manufacturers pipes, and then do the 2nd or 3rd pipes from the same manufacturer as we have time. It will be a PACKED 2.5 days of dawn to late night activity, just as the XB one was. We'll do them all if time permits. By all means, chime in with any concerns and we'll try to make sure that the test procedures address them. Download and read the test report from the XB test (American Sport Bike home page), and use that for suggestions on what can be done better. Al | ||
| Americanmadexb |
My only concern is i wanted this done last month so i can quit going back and forth.  | ||
| Mac_inger |
That Reinhart pipe looks mean  | ||
| Eddiep |
Mac inger, no kidding. The Reinhart pipe looks really good. Al, really cool that you're going to get these results for us Buell lovers. | ||
| Jelomadnes |
I'd really like to see the sound results of each pipe tested. The db level particularly during drive by conditions. | ||
| Myotherbike |
I have to agree, the Reinhart pipe looks fantastic. I have been searching for the perfect pipe and that one could be it. Looks like I will be waiting to see if it ever comes to market. | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
does the rienhart pipe have a cross over? it looks like it but i cant be 100% Thanx Jake | ||
| Eweaver |
AL, thank you so much for putting this together! I am most curious about the dBs of each pipe. I am an audio engineer and want to buy the quietest one. Would it be possible to dyno the Barkers exhaust with a quiet core insert? | ||
| Easyrider |
Al, I was thinking about this Don't you think it is fair, to just set the ignition and timing at 1 value in a a stock ECM, The most people use the stock ECM. Then enrich the value at WOT and leave it there to compare the exhaust with each other. The most people will run this situation on the street. The advantige can be that all the exhaust are run on the same conditions, You only then need to warm up the bikes and run them at the same temperature. | ||
| Blur |
I know you already answered this regarding different pipes from the same manufacturer but it will be interesting to see how the "quiet" core effects the sound and performance on pipes like the FMF. I bought a FMF from you a while back but haven't installed it yet. It'll be nice to see how that core changes things. It's great you guys are doing this. Thanks! | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
American Sport Bike/JT&S - Thanks heaps for doing this . I was about to order a slip-on for my R but will now wait at least until you've done your test, may even wait 'til after Homecoming as I'm guessing there will be a few 1125's there that I can listen to. cheers, chili | ||
| Crazyhawk99 |
Al, Add me to the list of those that really want to see the dB numbers too. At idle (and maybe 5K rpm) from a standardized distance & angle as well as a drive by. The drive-by noise numbers are subject to day by day error due to wind direction, etc... The dB numbers I think are just as important as the performance numbers. I think many would buy a pipe that may be down a bit on power, but is considerably quieter. | ||
| Captain_america |
Spintech? The poor man told me I have to wait two weeks before he can start on my bike because he is so backed up, which would be next monday 4-19-10 But he took pics and said this will be interesting... If its done in time, I'd like to see it tested. Al, maybe you can hit him up and influence him a little, give him a bump... | ||
| T_man |
I'm with Easy on this one concerning the ECM's state of tune. I believe most people out there run a stock ECM with no provision of adjustability. | ||
| Dman |
Count me in for the db testing as well, this is the thing that has me hung up on choosing right now. I keep reading that one is way too loud, then another, then another. It's hard to sample off videos and subjective reporting, db's would really help. This is sooo cool, I hope you pull it off. | ||
| Froggy |
The stock pipe is way too loud. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
The stock pipe is way too loud... for a sewing machine.  | ||
| Al_lighton |
Easy, I hear ya. That's why we'll do the first WOT runs on a STOCK unmodified ECM. Many folks will just put a pipe on without any tuning at all, and those runs will tell us what the WOT fueling response would be. But to characterize how a pipe will behave overall on a stock ECM in all cases would really require a full suite of dyno runs for each pipe in steady state conditions against the brake, covering a lot of different cells in the tables. It would be a mountain of data for each pipe. There is no way we can do that in a test like this given the time we will have. We'll be testing at least a dozen pipes in 2.5 days. It'll be a brutal test. Terry will be hurting.... The reason for tuning the bike for a relatively flat AFR at WOT is to characterize the frequency (RPM) response of the pipe itself, unencumbered by the effects of poor fueling. Those runs with a flat AFR will give an accurate response so that the playing field is level for all of the pipes. If it shows that one pipe is a midrange monster, but has a weaker top end, and that another is a top end pipe, with a weaker midrange, well, that is EXACTLY the data that we want to get. If one then lays the WOT response curve of any given pipe on top of the WOT response curve of the stock pipe, some general conclusions about how it will fuel on the stock map can be made. If the stock pipe makes more power in one RPM band than a given pipe, it is likely that the pipe will be rich in that band on the stock map. Conversely, if the stock pipe makes less power in one RPM band than a given pipe, it is likely that the pipe will be lean in that band on the stock map. I understand this is a VERY generalized conclusion that isn't 100% accurate, but our experiences developing maps has shown it to be a good general conclusion. It will show which pipes have a decent chance of running OK on a stock map, vs which pipes should absolutely be remapped to use safely. The reason for using the programmable race ECM rather than a stock ECM is really one of convenience. It is the only commercially available tuning tool we have for the 1125 that I know will do the job in a reasonably efficient manner. Al | ||
| Al_lighton |
We'll definitely have noise results. I haven't fully assembled the gear for this yet, but I learned a few things about this during the XB testing that we'll incorporate in this testing. For instance, sound files and dB measurements in the dyno room are USELESS. There is too much closed room return to the mic (it is BRUTALLY loud in a dyno room), and the sound generated by the rear tire on the dyno drum is WAY too prevalent in the sound files to make a comparison meaningful. My thoughts on how we'll proceed is something like this, but I have to do some testing before I lock it down. I'll set up a laptop with a good condenser mic running through a decent A/D, and we'll do a few tests with a known loud pipe to set the record levels. Once we set that input level, we won't touch it, ALL will be run with the same input level. Second, I'll set up a handheld dB meter, with a FLIP video recorder on the meter, so that the meter and the bike as it drives by is visible (if this can be done...I need to test this). We'll drive the bike by in the parking lot, left to right, at a standard distance for a couple drive bys, and then park it at a standard distance and orientation, and do some static revs. As most know, those static revs don't really reveal much about how a pipe sounds in the real world under load. For instance, a Micron system on an XB shreds like a small block chevy header on static revs, but doesn't make that sound AT ALL under load, it is MUCH bassier under load and the shred sound goes away almost completely. But we'll get both the drive by and the static revs on the exact same setup for both. The biggest challenge in the audio setup is to ensure that we have enough input gain to capture all the sounds, WITHOUT EVER CLIPPING. Because if it clips, it is useless data. And if we start getting clipping part way through the test, we CAN'T touch the dials or it will invalidate the earlier audio testing. It is a lot more challenging than you might think to get those levels set right. Al | ||
| Jdugger |
> It is a lot more challenging than you might think to get those levels set right. Use decent gear and it's no so much of a problem. An SM57 with a BIG FOAMY windscreen is a good start for loud noises outdoors. It's a cheap mic and sounds good enough for this application. A condenser is probably a poor choice, honestly, for reasons I'll get into if you really want, but just trust me on this one. A good, high headroom professional mic pre into 24-bit converters set so the "known loud" pipe is peaking probably -30dbfs or so is another. That gives you a lot of headroom, but still does a great job of capturing the sound for later. Also, on the drive bys, it's really important to maintain distance for accurate level readings. So, paint a bright yellow stripe on the parking lot and ride as straight down it past the mic consistently as possible. You can eliminate the need for the level meter by taking a sound of known output level at the part of the yellow line closest to the mic and measuring it at the microphone. Because you will have recordings, you can then simply calculate the sound level of the pipe from the RMS of the split second the bike is closest to the mic on the drive by. Most DAWs have this feature built in, so it's easy. Finally, I recommend you use C weighting of your measurements, not A weighting. A weighting is designed to emulate human hearing, and is "insensitive" to low frequency information -- the kind that rattles your neighbors dishes and rumbles through walls. C will give you a better picture of how obnoxious a pipe will be in an urban setting, where A would probably tell you the odds of the pipe being audible by a cop 2 miles away... | ||
| Joshinga |
I would love to see the HPE and what it does against the 15 bhp jump they claim. My interest is now peaked with the Rinehart pipe It has the same look as the HPE if it can put up the same or close to the same numbers that they claim I would be down for one as long as they don't cost $1200 for a slip on.  Al.. It would be cool if you could include a small description of the sound along with the db's. either way good luck And we will be awaiting the results. Kinda makes me glad that I didnt buy one yet  | ||
| Al_lighton |
"You can eliminate the need for the level meter by taking a sound of known output level at the part of the yellow line closest to the mic and measuring it at the microphone. " That makes sense. What does one use for such a reference sound source? Is there a reference tone that should be used to set that calibration? If someone with the gear and skills wants to volunteer to run sound for the event, I'd sure welcome it. I used to have a lot of digital audio gear but don't any more. The SW I still have is positively ancient. THe AMA event is the weekend before, EBR will be running there, so come to the Infineon event and make a long weekend of it . Al | ||
| Ratsmc |
Really wish I was back home (Oakland) to help out. I have some of the stuff you need (in a box somewhere in my garage). I'll see if one of my boys can help out. | ||
| Eweaver |
Regarding dB measurement, I found this on an AMA site: CURRENT TESTS FOR NOISE US EPA F76A Passby Noise Test Measures total vehicle noise Procedure is RPM-based - telemetry used to determine engine speed Must know Rated RPM = RPM at maximum power (peak net brake power) Hard, flat surface required; no obstacles within 30 m radius of microphones 80/82 dB(A) limit SAE J1287 Jul98 Stationary Sound Test Procedure In-use noise measurement for off-highway motorcycles and ATVs Measures exhaust sound levels only Based on one-half maximum rated RPM Measured at 20 inches, 45-degree angle from exhaust system 96 dB(A) limit recommended by MIC & SVIA (Unless otherwise provided by law or local ordinance) redline may be used with 3 dB tolerance added to the sound level measured © 2003, American Motorcyclist Association | ||
| Jdugger |
> What does one use for such a reference sound source? Is there a reference tone that should be used to set that calibration? Pink Noise | ||
| Blake |
EBR Race ECM? | ||
| D_adams |
I am guessing it's the programmable race ecm from EBR, ie; the $750 one. | ||
| Al_lighton |
Yup, the programmable race ECM one. Jim, I'm still a little confused on how to calibrate the noise setup. If I have a pink noise generator set up on the drive line, and a DAW/mic set up at a known distance, how do I calibrate it all? Think you could write up a calibration procedure that we can follow? It is pretty clear from responses both to the original XB exhaust shootout and the ones here so far that capturing both the sound levels and tonalities is a critical part of the test. So I really want to get this part much better than we achieved at the XB shootout. | ||
| Afhans |
Al, If any of the vendors do not fess up a pipe to you please list them. If one is a pipe I am considering perhaps I'll buy it and shipping to you guys for testing. Then you all could sending on to me. Maybe others would do the same. (just fixed a typo) (Message edited by afhans on April 15, 2010) | ||
| Therealassmikeg |
Way to step up to the plate Hans!!! I would also do it, but am still working on getting an exhaust I promised someone delivered to him... |
