| Author | Message | ||
     Highscore |
Hi there! I finished just a new series of dyno testing of my 2008 "R". The bike is rebuilt to "all stock, featuring stock pipe, stock air box, stock ECM mapping. During development process, especially when working on a new step, it is a good idea to rebuilt the bike to "all stock" just to be sure, its mechanical basis is unaffected. The result of this "new base run" of my actual test series was so astonishing,that I felt the need to show it here:   Same bike, same tires & belt, same dyno & operator. Nevertheless there is a difference of 20 HP between the poorest run of my first test session last year and the real healthy 137 (rear wheel) HP now. Pretty the half of that discrepancy may be explained by the hot air, exposed by the radiator fans to the engine, sacrificing its performance. This is not a definite problem of real world riding, but of dyno-testing (I reported about this phenomenon in an earlier posting). Redirecting this stream of hot air away from air box intake below the steering rack lifted up the power to an average reading of 130 HP. "Average" means here here, that the power output still was fluctuating, depending engine temperature,and this in a manner other engines do not show: the performance differed within a range of 5-7 HP from one run to the other, when things became hot. The following shot shows 12 runs of the actual session, done in 4 test run blocks, each with 3 runs, one after the other:   This thermal "nervousness", which occupied so much of my time during the last year´s test session to cool the 1125 down to "catch" it within its preferential temperature window disappeared completely. One dyno run is like the other. (BTW: The runs 1-6 show the performance of a K&N-filter inside of the air box, the runs 7-12 the power using a (well-worn) stock paper element) Only one thing is different on my bike during this actual test session. And it looks like as this could be the key to release power from the ROTAX engine: I have changed the´oil. The former filling was a - of course - genuine HD-Syn-3-oil, the fluid filled in during an engine service at the dealer. This oil was for approx. 2000 miles in, when I changed it. It is not my intention to start here a new oil discussion, I filled in a full synthetic 20-60 grade of a well known British company. It really looks like as this new juice inside of the Helicon engine is responsible for its new and astonishing performance. A possible explanation for this phenomenon: The Helicon engine has a dry-sump with an additional oil pump to remove the oil from the crankcase into the reservoir. If the engine oil now is prone to foaming this oil pump struggled to expel this mixture of air and oil. This oil-foam, remaining in the crankcase, now breaks down the fast rotating parts inside. This means friction and a power loss. For me it looks like as the genuine HD-oil has a tendency for foaming above a certain temperature. This character enable a different oil with better foam-avoiding additives to release substantial hidden power. | ||
| D_adams |
Very interesting find there. Oil foam causing HP losses. Go H-D! | ||
| Duphuckincati |
So what is this British company? | ||
| Joshinga |
What oil?????????????????????// | ||
| Kc10_fe |
Well known issue in aircraft. Thats why oil tanks and some hydro tanks were pressurized. | ||
| Ratsmc |
Guys, I really do not think that the brand of oil produce the gain in HP. I think it is more likely that if it is oil related, the gain came from using full synthetic rather than the synthetic blend that is Syn-3 Highscore, essentially, the factors that allowed for better readings were 1) redirecting the airflow which more accurately reflects riding conditions and b)changing the oil. Is that correct? That prompts a couple of questions (not that I am questioning your results or conclusions). First, could the additional mileage on the bike between the previous runs and now have affected overall output? And second, could the ECM "learning" played a role? I ask these questions because I honestly do not know the answers and am not enough of an expert to understand everything you do. (Message edited by ratsmc on March 21, 2010) | ||
| Tbowdre |
i have seen this comercial before... next we drain all the oil out and run the engine!sorry, i am joking... couldnt resisttodd | ||
| D_adams |
Sure, but I've been running 15-50 full synthetic since the 620 mile service and I haven't seen that much HP yet. | ||
| Sknight |
Oil types, weights and additives will have wildly different dyno numbers. When I changed my oil from factory fill to Mobil Vtwin 20-50 synthetic it idled noticeably quieter, revved quicker and picked up a couple MPG which is a clear indicator of reduced friction. Reduced friction instantly translates to easy horsepower. | ||
| Ratsmc |
D_Adams, first, did you do a dyno run on Syn-3 and then one on synthetic? What were the results? Again, everyone seems to be focused exclusively on the oil when, IMO the much larger factor is the re-directed airflow. | ||
| Freight_dog |
Highscore, or anyone with knowledge. What was done to redirect the hot air away from the airbox intake? | ||
| D_adams |
No, unfortunately I never got a dyno run until I had maybe 8000 miles on the bike and it's had the full syn in it most of it's life. Mine seems to be inline with everyone in general though at 123 hp bone stock. | ||
| Highscore |
My 2008-"R" has now 6000 miles on. I purchased this bike at 4000 miles with a fresh dealer service including oil change. The first and with 118 WHP for me frustrating dyno run was done with this mileage. I rode this bike for 1000 miles on the street, the other 1000 miles are dyno runs. ´ I finished my first last year´s test session early November. The bike remains untouched until this second session now some weeks ago (sorry I am only here at this board when I find time for it). The battery was still on power,even the fuel was the same at the first new and "strong" runs as last year. The only difference is the new oil inside of the engine. The problem with the 1125 is its lack in constancy. With a variance of 10 HP or more from one dyno run to the other it is impossible to validate any effects by a tuning modification. First step was to ensure there is only cool air at the air box intake for engine breathing. I solved this issue by removing the radiator covers, cutting the housing and reversing the rotational direction of the fans:  I am aware aesthetics of this solution sucks, but it works. Without this mod the IAT-sensor at the air intake ducts is heated directly by the hot fan´s air stream. This irritates the ECM sensing "desert" ambient conditions and fools it to lean out artificially the A/F-mixture to curious values during the dyno run. With cool air at the intake the engine runs substantially more stable, but remains still sensible to changes of engine and/or ambient temperature. There was a difference of up to 7 HP between "good" and "bad" dyno runs in the same tuning configuration. At one cool day last autumn my 1125 cranked out "all stock" 137 HP. But only once at the first test series that morning. When things became warmer during the work on the dyno, the dyno-# went down to average 130 WHP-readings. And this only with extensive cool-down-periods between the test series. I am not here to promote a new wonder engine oil. I just want to share my experiences with you. I have filled in Rock Oil TRM 20W-60, but I am convinced other oils of similar grade and quality should work too. Now the ROTAX engine has lost its thermal sensibility and runs stable. This is an feature I missed deeply when working with the HD-Syn3 inside of the engine on the dyno. (Message edited by Highscore on March 21, 2010) (Message edited by Highscore on March 21, 2010) | ||
| Syonyk |
Interesting results. I may have to do an oil change and go with Mobil V-Twin Synthetic - I've been ROCK solid at 38mpg since I got the bike, and my riding doesn't really change (daily commuting to work on the highway), if I see an improvement, it will stand out. Foaming oil, huh? | ||
| Keef |
I don't know where some of you get your info but the screaming eagle 20-50 synthetic is fully synthetic Not a blend H-D Does sell a blended oil also , the oil in the gold bootles are fully synthetic and the grey bottles are the blended synthetic/dino oil and the black bottles are straight dino | ||
| Ratsmc |
Syn-3, which comes in the bikes and is what they put in at the dealer is a blend. It is not fully synthetic. The bottle doesn't actually say that but it is. Read this Part way down the page is a lot of info from the MSDS concerning what is actually in the oil. (Message edited by ratsmc on March 21, 2010) | ||
| Easyrider |
Highscore, Did you use the same ECM, or is there a reflash between the first and last run.... The oil story is correct.. If you look to other Rotax engine brand users, 95% uses full syntetic 10W-40 | ||
| Highscore |
Same ECM, same flash (actual European HD-service-stuff). No "mechanical" differences between the first and the last run, everything - except fan ducting and oil - bone stock. What means "the oil story is correct?" Have you made similar experiences during your dyno-testing, Easyrider? If so, which oil do you prefer and suggest for optimal performance? Or belongs this information to your "tuning-secrets"? My intention for this thread is to make the dyno-results more comparable. I am really happy now that a "true" oil not only mobilizes some additional power but more important helps to stabilize the engine´s power output. Furthermore this thread helps to explain, what is coming next: performance figures and dyno runs with inflationary numbers. | ||
| Kirb |
Just to add another wrench into this mix...using syn oil to reduce friction and gain 10 or 20 HP is not what is going on. The HP gains could be something else (foaming?), but consider this- 10HP is the mechanical equivilant of nearly 7500 watts. You are not displacing the heat generated by 7.5kW of friction energy without toasting the bike....this is on top of all the other heat generated in the engine. I suspect something else to be the cause of these different HP numbers (temp, humidity, fuel, dyno setup, etc) more so than the type of oil... | ||
| Easyrider |
Highscore, On a public forum discussing about oil is asking for problems and comment (-; We tested differend brands, the best so far for us was Motul 10W-40 I wonder what EBR is putting in the bikes now. I think the power output has more to do with the engine running in then the oil change (keep that in mind) forget the oil wil bring the power.. discussion | ||
| Syonyk |
Kirb: How much energy do you think a typical gasoline engine is dumping as heat at normal power settings? Assuming 25% efficiency (which is probably on the high side), at a 30hp cruise, that means nearly 90hp of thermal energy is being dissipated through the coolant and exhaust - MUCH more at full throttle. http://www.cleargas.org/images/Sankey%20Diagram.pn g is a chart of the power breakdown on an engine. At WOT, say, 150hp crank, there's around 450hp of thermal energy being dumped out through exhaust/coolant. Another 10hp worth of thermal energy in that would be barely noticeable in coolant temps, but you'd definitely see it in the dyno plot. So... take what you will, but I really don't see an additional 7.5kW of thermal being a big deal on a WOT dyno run in terms of getting rid of it, but if it's from foamed oil, you'll certainly see it at the wheel. | ||
| Greenflash |
Since Motul is mentioned here, I thought (at the risk of flames) I'd chime in and say that Motul V300 (which is their highest grade, highest price, Ester full syn) is my oil of choice on my two Ducatis, two 1125s, and Victory. The local Ducati dealer used it exclusively, so I started researching the different brands. BTW I ran HD dino (360) during break-in on the 1125s, then Motul. In my opinion, a lot of people are saying that "they are running full syn" because that is the way the bottle is labeled. In actuality, it's more accurate to say "I run a Type 5 (Ester based such as Motul), or a Type IV (PAO based such as Amsoil)". The articles I have read do not convince me that a highly refined petroleum product that is still defined as Synthetic by law (Type III) is really synthetic in my book. But that's just me. Mobile 1: Type III I believe. I haven't seen a comprehensive listing of Types and Brands; that would be really useful. What other Type IV and Type V options are there? Motorex, etc? Does anyone know of such a listing? Above is just IMHO of course! | ||
| D_adams |
Interesting read here, http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html | ||
| Kirb |
Sysonyk...you are adding all this extra heat to friction losses, not to combustion. Based on your numbers (link), you can cut friction losses in half or better with syn oil? Not even the carpet bagger oil guys will claim that. | ||
| Greenflash |
Thanks D_Adams. I already had that link, one of the good articles I have read. However the Motul 5100 they refer to is a blend, not the same as V300. Here'd a good one, particularly the Oil TYPE discussions: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index. html So Amsoil and Motorex Power Synt are PAO, and Motul V300 is indeed 100% ester. What others? I haven't heard of any. Many are just blends, "fortified" with PAO/Ester, etc. as the article says. Cost? H-D Syn3 is $10/quart. That may be OK for some, I just think you can do a lot better for $10. I buy my MotulV300 at the races (MotoGP) on special, just under $10/qt. OK, I am sure the OP did not intend this to be yet another oil discussion. Sorry! | ||
| Syonyk |
Kirb: True, that heat will be going into the oil instead of (directly) into the coolant or exhaust. I agree that, under optimal conditions, a good synthetic isn't going to cut frictional losses in half. HOWEVER: If the Syn3 is foaming, and frictional losses with this oil are abnormally high due to parts flying through foam, a better, non-foaming oil could certainly make a substantial improvement. I don't know the actual case here, and it would be fairly difficult to determine (though a window into the crankcase/dry sump area/wet sump area and illumination should answer a lot of questions), but I don't think 10hp worth of losses from foaming oil are unreasonable. This engine is a fairly radical departure from all the existing Harley motors, so I'd consider it well within the realm of possible that it hits some edge cases in the oil that previously weren't an issue. | ||
| D_adams |
Guess who's going to try to become an Amsoil dealer?  | ||
| Bigblock |
I just changed the oil(fresh h-d syn) and I can't believe how much better it runs. Fresh oil made a HUGE, like noticeable seat of the pants power and smoothness difference. I'm not waiting so long next time, and might try some motul, then too. I just happened to have the H-D stuff and a filter in my toolbox. | ||
| Rodrob |
I've always wondered about the air temp sensor and it's effect on performance. My cluster always reads 15-20 degrees hotter than the ambient air temp. Depending on the ECU, this could contribute to a lean condition. I've thought about moving it to the front of the airbox intake, away from the engine heat. Now I'm going to do it to see what, if anything changes. | ||
| Captain_america |
My IAT always reads high too. Even at speeds 50mph+ I plan on getting the heat away from the intake too someday when I figure out how to do it so it looks nice. |
