| Author | Message | ||
     Skratch |
Poppin...then you will probably be ecstatic in a couple years when Erik kicks ass with the 1190. My point in being in this thread is the pipe-dream that goes around here about the evil HD and how terrible this is going to be to their long term growth and bottom line. I'm not advocating that I agree with the decision. It is what it is. But to think that the closing of Buell is going to have a big and/or long term negative effect on HD is rediculous. | ||
| Zacks |
Hairy is spot on. I looked for the article to quote it, but can't find it. Sport Rider or Motorcyclist or some monthly rag had an interview with David Robb BMW's VP. In it, he pointed out that they were currently a niche manufacturer with an aging demographic and needed to do some new designs to attract a younger consumer. Also, that while BMW was known for their performance in a 4 wheel platform, that was something that was unknown on the bike side. He was talking about borrowing some of the car guys to cross pollinate the design teams. Looking at what they're putting out lately, I'd say they were successful. HD should be watching. | ||
| Kickstand76 |
my last post was just a little humor. i guess im not funny. haha | ||
| Hairy_cannonball |
I agree in part with what you are saying Skratch, however HD was so successful in marketing the HD is best f*** the rest mentality that there is a large group of riders who have ridden nothing else. When they do get on a bike that actually handles and performs well some of these riders would realize that maybe there are better choices for them. Example, someone looking for a touring bike who learns what performance is could perhaps cast their economic vote away from HD to a European or Japanese brand. Yes, I am very aware that an Electraglide buyer is not a Buell buyer. | ||
| Skratch |
LMFAO!!! Are you kidding? BMW has been making bikes since...what....WWII?? They may be a niche market in the US, but I would doubt that in Europe. | ||
| Hairy_cannonball |
It is generally accepted that WWII started in September 1939 when Germany invaded Poland. It ended September 1945 when Japan surrendered. Since BMW made its first motorcycle in 1923 I would suggest that you study world history a little better. | ||
| Skratch |
Hairy, again I'm not trying to be insulting but this why I shouldn't get involved in an emotional discussion. Its a condescending assumption to say that "someone looking for a touring bike who LEARNS WHAT PERFORMANCE IS....." You know, I ride a touring bike. I also started out years ago riding sport bikes. With many people (if not most) riding in your youth starts out on performance based motorcycles. But as we age (and in my case get into car accidents with drunk drivers who in turn f*** up my back and neck for life) riding a performance motorcycle isn't much of an option. Like the anecdotal evidence put out earlier about "many people I've talked to..." well, many people I talk to who ride touring bikes are obviously older and many of them have bad backs, necks...basically aren't as flexible as they used to be. Besides that, I've ridden Yamaha, Kawasaki...not much for the Honda tho. For a touring bike, I'll take an HD hands down over any of them for a variety of reasons. I was looking at buying a used sportbike for quite a while and my HD guy constantly tried to get me on a Buell. But I wasn't interested in the price tag for how much I'll actually ride it. If it weren't for the fact they were 1/2 price, I probably wouldn't have bought one. I probably would've gotten a used metric bike. Just trying to keep it real here. But now after knowing more about Buell and riding it, I'm a fan. I hope Erik bounces back and makes the best frickin sport bike on the planet. No doubt this is a wonderful machine and I'm going to enjoy the hell out of it. So yes, there are going to be a ton of the Buell fans out there that are pissed as hell with HD. But as an outsider now looking in, I think more objectivety is needed when evaluating a 100 year old company. There was a reason for what they did...good/bad/indifferent. Its quite possible we won't know what that is. But I highly doubt it was because of some perceived threat that to market a Buell they would slam their own HD market. Because they are two vastly different markets. The only thing in common is what is important to many people...myself included. They are American made. | ||
| Skratch |
Thats the best you got Hairy is to start being critical of my knowledge of history and where a motorcycle that I've never even looked at or cared about fit into it?  | ||
| Hairy_cannonball |
Skratch, as with all your posts, I agree with much of what you are saying. There are a few points however that are open to debate. During the first half of Harley Davidsons 100 plus year history they continually made improvements in handling, durability and performance. The superior performance of the overhead valve knucklehead and panhead models was one of the major reasons HD survived and Indian did not. Now HD no longer markets improvements in performance and handling, choosing rather to market a lifestyle and downplay the importance of outright performance. During the 90's this was a hugely successful strategy. I think the honeymoon with this strategy might be ending. I think marketing Buell presented some challenges for them. I think these challenges could have been overcome, but instead they chose to kill the product. I think this was a bad choice, and as I stated earlier I think the Buell brand could have been used to broaden their consumer demographic. As for choosing a HD for your touring bike I wouldn't criticize that decision at all, it has it merits. It is reliable, comfortable and relatively low maintenance. You have ridden other bikes and made an informed decision. | ||
| Hairy_cannonball |
Skratch, it was meant as sarcastic humor. I thought the history of a major brand such as BMW would be well known among motorcycle enthusiasts. I was poking fun at you because I thought you didn't know when WWII was. | ||
| Skratch |
This is why this conversation is getting stupid. HD has an entirely NEW frame on their touring bikes that is barely 2 years old. With that lighter frame come different overall length, weight, rake, tire sizes, etc. The 09 touring bikes are barely comparable in ride and handling to the 08's and previous and I know...I've ridden them. The ride and handling is VASTLY superior on the new ones which is why I decided to buy one. (my first touring bike btw) And I've got the tire indications going almost all the way to the edge of the CS to prove it. For a 900 lb touring bike, this thing is very VERY nimble. We won't even begin to talk about increasing engine size in the mid 2000's and the other improvements they've been making on their bikes over the past 50 years. I'm glad you agree with some of what I'm saying and we even agree to a certain extent on what this COULD mean for HD in dropping Buell. But your still talking two vastly different kinds of motorcycles that appeal to 2 vastly different demographics. HD (outside of the Sportster) has never been about outright performance even tho they continually improve upon it. (Message edited by skratch on February 09, 2010) | ||
| Skratch |
I think the BMW is a cool bike. I think the Ducati is a cool bike. Doesn't mean I know the entire history of either. I like Corvettes and Trans Ams too. That doesn't mean I could tell you everything about them. | ||
| Elvis |
Will Harley go out of business because they have created ill-will within the American motorcycle community - not just by shutting Buell down, but refusing to sell them to a company that was ready, willing and able to continue the brand? No, of course not. Let's not get over-dramatic. Will they lose more sales by taking this course than they would have by simply selling Buell to BRP? Yes, absolutely, I believe that to be the case because I don't think they would have lost very many sales at all if they had sold. Harley doesn't sell bikes because they're engineering marvels, they sell bikes because they have an image. Harley's actions since October 15th have been completely counter to the image they would like us to believe they stand for: Individuality, freedom, America, rebellion, yada, yada, yada. When Erik Buell gets back to building bikes, he will be a much more real embodiment of the ideals Harley pretends they stand for than Harley will be. The current Harley management is blindly fumbling and their actions are not in the best interest of the company. | ||
| Hairy_cannonball |
"HD has an entirely NEW frame on their touring bikes that is barely 2 years old. With that lighter frame come different overall length, weight, rake, tire sizes, etc." Yes, I have ridden them. They are still not anywhere near the handling performance level of the touring offerings from the major European and Japanese companies that also offer great comfort and weather protection levels. That doesn't mean that the HD is a bad choice, but it is not competitive based on performance alone. There are other factors, real and emotional, that make you want to have it. "We won't even begin to talk about increasing engine size in the mid 2000's and the other improvements they've been making on their bikes over the past 50 years." Even with the huge displacement it still doesn't produce good horsepower. Plus it is pushing around 900 lbs. "I'm just not looking at this from a fan-boy perspective." Me either. I am loyal to no brand. I have 11 motorcycles at the moment, most of them different. One of them happens to be a 1125CR, bought for one reason and one reason only. It is a great bike. It wouldn't have mattered to me if green monkeys on mars had made it I still would have bought it. The fact that it was an American brand and I have great respect for what Buell represented and did is only icing on the cake. | ||
| Elvis |
Let's look at it this way: If Harley doesn't think this news getting out will hurt them, why did they spend so much effort to prevent anyone who knew about the BRP offer from saying anything about it? If they really had a rational reason for not accepting BRP's offer, why didn't they simply acknowledge that there was an offer, but they turned it down for reason X. They still haven't provided reason X and they won't have to as long as people are willing to accept: "I'm sure they had a good reason." | ||
| Skratch |
"The fact that it was an American brand and I have great respect for what Buell represented and did is only icing on the cake." Hairy, on this we are in full agreement. | ||
| Skratch |
Hairy, I just take issue with your blanket statement that HD no longer markets improvements in performance and handling. But when its pointed out that they DO actually improve their motorcycles you then have to qualify it by basically saying they just don't have what the European bikes have, which is exactly what you did. My issue with the whole Buell/HD thing is its all based on assumption of what "might have been". There are what...100,000 Buells in existance and how many millions of HD's around? In the scheme of things, this isn't going to mean much except to the more hard-core fans of Buell, which percentage-wise is probably in the single digits of the overall structure of HD. I read somewhere in here that the Rotax engine was a very large investment for the 1125. Maybe they didn't see payback? Maybe their sales weren't up to snuff? Who knows? Why they didn't sell Buell? Again, who knows. There are a bunch of different variables that we don't know. But $100 million isn't much comparatively in a multi billion dollar business. And the people buying HD's (or I would venture to guess the vast majority of them) aren't going to give a rip about this. They have their big bore v-twins with 2 1/2" baffles rumbling down the street. Or the 60 something year old guy looking to retire with too much money to spend so he buys an Ultra. Its only the Buell fans who are going to make a stink about this and its going to go away the more EBR gets off the ground. Not trying to wreck any images here...just a little perspective. | ||
| Ogobracing |
Hey, watch what you say about the 60-something year old guy. That's me. | ||
| Skratch |
I said nothing bad!!  | ||
| Blake |
Don (Skratch), Use of the term "fanboys" is disrespectful in a juvenile sort of way. If you want to disrespect people who are fans of Buell motorcycles, you've done well. Regardless, your statements with which I took issue as being inaccurate, were indeed inaccurate. You stated that "Buell is and always has been a niche market." Baloney. Which niche was it? The air-cooled street-fighter niche, or the American Superbike niche, or the economical thumper niche, or the American adventure sport bike niche? Buell was a small but growing manufacturer of sporting motorcycles, sold, raced and ridden worldwide, built in America and Brazil. "By HD dumping the Buell line isn't going to do jack or squat to their overall sales." Buell was on target to achieve significant growth, heading towards multiple tens of thousands of bikes shipped per year, it was easy to see Buell reaching 10% of H-D sales, not insignificant by any measure. The way HDI handled the Buell closure has alienated a LOT of Buell enthusiasts who will now shun products from the motor company. That amounts more tens of thousands of sales lost. Certainly significant. "Simply because people who are looking for a HD style bike aren't going to look at Buell." That is just plain false. I and many others were very interested in obtaining an H-D for those days when the mood fits better with a road hog cruiser or for two up riding with passengers who are not so enthused about sport oriented riding. Your use of 100,000 bikes in 25 years is not honest. Firstly the number is significantly more than 100,000. Secondly it is a dishonest tactic since most all of those bike were sold in the past ten or twelve years, not 25. To say that their handling of Buell will sink the company can only be borne out over time. As the aging baby boomer crowd dwindles, that may be true. It may be off base. History will be the judge. To say that their inept handling of Buell will have no significant impact on the sales of the company is just plain wrong. You'd have to be a Harley fanboy to miss the blow-back this issue has created. It may not be a majority view, but it sure as heck is significant. It's making the financial pages of a number of publications. If the investors see it as significant, then it likely is significant. | ||
| Skratch |
In short...the fanboy quote.. I took it out of my original for just that reason before it was requoted later. My bad. I agree. Poor taste. | ||
| Court |
>>>The current Harley management is blindly fumbling and their actions are not in the best interest of the company. A refreshingly accurate statement among all those above. Interesting to get some HD upper management types in a corner over the last couple months and visit . . . ditto some of the folks who were "released". The single greatest concern among many insiders, who for the most part like Buell but are somewhat indifferent, is that Harley-Davidson really has no plan other than "lower our heads and go like hell". They needed a leader and lost one of the best chances they ever had. They'd have been better off to tank Buell and put Erik Buell in as CEO. Harley-Davidson would be well on the way to having an actionable plan, folks would be taking responsibility to deliver things and Harley-Davidson would be making a comeback based on ground far firmer that the long lost "tough guy" image. I'd wager something akin to this will occur . . . not far from Milwaukee. | ||
| Skratch |
Blake, You mistake assessment for criticism. Sorry..over 100,000. Around 136,000 to be exact. If I take your math that most were sold in the last 10-12 years, that makes at best 10,000 - 12,000 bikes. And thats being generous since they've been around longer than that. So...generalization? Maybe. Dishonest? Hardly. In a market of MILLIONS, thats niche. Whichever niche you want to grab. My statement about those looking to buy an HD aren't looking at Buell. Again, you're using anecdotal evidence of people you know. Do you know tens of thousands? Doubtful. But I'm honest enough in admitting my evidence is anecdotal. But I'll put my cards on that people looking to buy a cruiser type or touring type kind of motorcycle aren't looking at Buells. Conversely, those looking at the either the sportbike, adventure bike etc are probably not looking towards HD. Did I say that HD won't suffer from this? I don't think so. What I am suggesting is that the long term effects of this will be negligable. Again, if I'm wrong, I'll admit it. But the dissolving of Buell bringing down HD? Thats comical. | ||
| Pilotvtail |
Will the dissolving of Buell bring down HD? Nope, I agree with Skratch. But dissolving Buell is an indicator of the way HD Management THINKS (or doesn't)....and that mentality WILL be the end of HD if they don't pull their heads out. | ||
| Oldog |
But the dissolving of Buell bringing down HD? Thats comical. I had an interesting conversation out of the blue, with a non buell guy, the general rank and file bike guys sound a lot like us, from the conversation these are quotes "they act like the 48 is going to save them, the xr1200 didn't the 48 wont either" the non riding public heard of the shut down the Dumb - Asses that got buell closed did a great deal of damage that will show up in years to come. } | ||
| Sburns2421 |
If H-D ends up in bankruptcy, it is not the handling of the Buell closure that will be the cause of its demise. It will only be one thing in a long list of mistakes that will be exposed during this protracted recession. It takes many poor decisions to sink a company with the history and brand image of Harley-Davidson, but it is a possibility. As I stated earlier, their finance division is what will weigh heavily on them for the next several quarters. Loaning out money to people who bought overpriced houses didn't work for the mortgage industry, and will not work with expensive motorcycles for H-D. If a company like GE can be put in distress due to poor lending practices in its finance division, you can sure as heck be assured H-D can too. | ||
| Skratch |
Sburns....very accurate assessment. | ||
| Kickstand76 |
"AMERICA!!!!! FVCK YEAH!!!!!!!....." | ||
| Oddball |
" The very thought of Erik Buell selling 30,000 bikes a year, in their minds was sufficient to piss away $250,000,000 of shareholders money. " Going off the old today show clip from '94 it took HD 90 years to reach 70,000 a year. Wonder what year they reached 30,000? (excluding any artificial war years boost) HD Is going to shrink whether they like it or not. They rode the boomer wave. Mid 80's the first boomers were hitting their 40's(harley age). Now the last of the boomers are in their latter 40's and those from the leading edge are in their mid 60's. Us GenX'ers have begun our 40's. Even if we were as gung ho for chrome as the boomers the numbers would still shrink. The Y-gen (whatever the next is called) is even less inclined toward vibrating chrome. back to the topic, It does seem dumb to have declined the offer(s). If accepted and sold before the 15th announcement they would have avoided all this turmoil and ill will. Even amongst their own ranks. At this point (maybe at the end of the year and his no compete clause) they could pull off a good PR move by selling the rights/properties back to Erik for a dollar. Let him and the elves go at it on their own. Act more like a big brother and not a domineering narcissist. | ||
| Blake |
Excellent points strange round one. |
