| Author | Message | ||
     Jdugger |
I think it's unlikely. HD is somewhat of an American icon, and would likely receive some kind of government assistance, even if it were just good old fashioned operation bankruptcy, before it were completely destroyed. Remember, it's not been so long since the US Govt implemented trade import duties and other market distortions at HD's request. I think more likely, and perhaps more humorously, would be a foreign white night buying an HD that got into real trouble. The Chinese are sitting on a mountain of US currency right now... | ||
| Kc10_fe |
Im an American, I buy American. I fly for the Air Force. Im also a union construction guy. Ive only owned Harley products including the Buell and a few other bikes. I cant say that I will buy another American made bike after the 1125R. I am also a HD stock owner and I have watched my investment sink into the shitter. My hope and wishing HD would clean the belly button lint out so it could see with its head up its own ass has just faded away. In my twisted and warped mind I see HD as a clothing line with showrooms full of bikes price from 16K and up and people these days can just as easily buy a rice copybike for 13K that wont leak or cost an additional 5K to chrome out. HD has become the GM of bikes. If it wasnt for taxpayer billions GM would have gone the way of the Yugo. Bummer (Message edited by kc10_fe on February 08, 2010) (Message edited by kc10_fe on February 08, 2010) | ||
| Mickeyq |
US Patent 6516910 Motorcycle swingarm having integral oil storage compartment and caliper mounting...A motorcycle comprising a frame; an engine mounted to the frame; a steering assembly interconnected with the frame; a front wheel rotatably mounted to the steering assembly; a swingarm mounted to the frame, the swingarm including a hollow portion adapted to contain oil for use in the engine; and a rear wheel rotatably mounted to the swingarm... Inventors: Buell; Erik F. (Mukwonago, WI), Hoechst; Dane J. (Elkhorn, WI), Fiorini; Christopher L. (Burlington, WI) Assignee: Buell Motorcycle Company (Troy, WI) Appl. No.: 09/901,492 Filed: July 9, 2001 No indication of HD ownership--this is straight from Patent Office. Sooo, do they ,HOG, own the patents?? | ||
| Jdugger |
> Sooo, do they ,HOG, own the patents?? Most likely. If Buell is owned by HD, then yes, they own the patents unless explicitly contracted otherwise. | ||
| Mickeyq |
I am no lawyer, but I assume since HD owned Buell MC and the patent says "assignee: Buell.." that yes they, HD, have control. I still cannot understand WHY they, HD, won't sell if they have willing buyers?? Sounds like revenge to me IMHO. All said, the only American mfg that built real-world machines as well as world-class sportbikes; now gone is a disgusting thought. I am glad there is an EBR... | ||
| Endoman33 |
Mickeyq, HD EGO plain and simple!!! | ||
| Metalrabbit |
I thought you hated Buells Kc 10,, You do have a VFR don't you? Seems like I saw that same handle on VFR World,, no? | ||
| Mickeyq |
Gotta be more than ego! I think it's an engineering issue. Anyways, at a time when an American product which not only competes, but kicks butt gets shelved--it stinks. It wasn't only in Sportbike, it happened in Superbike and over in Europe. This was the real deal and it was American. Like I said, I am glad there is an EBR..I just hope I win a lotto or powerball to invest in EBR. | ||
| Davegess |
H-D owns the patents. H-D buell paid Rotax for the development work and is paying a substantial penalty for not buying the motors. EBR is a completely separate company has has purchased some limited rights to produce some race bikes. Hopefully when he is relieved of his legal constraints he will be able to find a partner to help him make some great street bikes. H-D has made some real errors here, including buying MV in the first place. Passing on a deal with Bombadier is also a mistake IMHO. They are giving away a ton of cash they are going to need over the next few years. | ||
| Duggram |
Dave, no kidding. Did you see the WSJ comments recently about the Harly kill? They are financing their loans with loans. God help Harley. | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
no god help buell start making street bikes again, even if that means no more harley...our at least BRP could buy them HAHAHAHA Jake | ||
| Skratch |
Rather they pay their loans with loans than have the government bail them out. I don't know what the motivation HD had in dropping Buell. Everyone has an opinion. But it could be likely that we'll never know. I don't know that its fair to vetch on a company going thru financial troubles...especially in an industry that is pretty much discretionary in nature, during this economy. But HD will survive. And Buell will be back. | ||
| Kickstand76 |
on the positive side of this; if BRP were to take over maybe they would be able to solve the problem of melting fairings or redirect exhaust flow instead of direct application to rear brake and tire, especially when cold.   (Message edited by kickstand76 on February 09, 2010) | ||
| Jules |
Kickstand - both of those things are trivial, turnouts on the exhaust take all of half an hour to fab and fit (mine cost me a grand total of £10) and the fairing can be spaced out by bending the brackets (and I added a plastic spacer on the front bracket too) - 10 mins tops.. I know some argue that you "shouldn't need to do that" but considering how much time gets spent on modifying these bikes I don't think the odd hour stopping stuff from melting/getting caked in muck is a bad investment :-) | ||
| Ponti1 |
+1 Jules!! | ||
| Brumbear |
perhaps Erik can buy MV augusta for like $20 million on the cheap and rebadge them Buell MV that would be a kick in the pants to ol HD a combined loss of 1/4 billion dollars and the end result a direct competator they used to own!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Elvis |
H-D owns the patents. H-D buell paid Rotax for the development work and is paying a substantial penalty for not buying the motors. EBR is a completely separate company has has purchased some limited rights to produce some race bikes. Hopefully when he is relieved of his legal constraints he will be able to find a partner to help him make some great street bikes. H-D has made some real errors here, including buying MV in the first place. Passing on a deal with Bombadier is also a mistake IMHO. They are giving away a ton of cash they are going to need over the next few years. As usual, you're 100% on, Dave. It's a shame management at Harley can't see things as clearly and simply as you. The ONLY justification for Harley refusing to sell the rights is fear of competition . . . but they're NOT eliminating competition - Erik Buell will be making motorcycles somehow, someway in the coming years. The only thing Harley is doing is slowing him down slightly in the short term. . . . but the short term is IRRELEVANT. Erik selling 10,000 bikes a year isn't a threat to Harley. It's where he'll be 5 to 10 years from now that should be a concern to Harley. They are holding back his short term options, but 5 to 10 years from now, he'll be a serious player with or without Harley. So the thing they're afraid of is going to happen. They don't own him. Even if he has a non-compete, they can't prevent him from thinking, creating computer models and machining and testing parts. I'm sure, right now, he is working on parts and theories that he will use with or without Harley's technology. So they're turning down money in their hands now and getting absolutely nothing, long-term for that money they're losing. Idiots. | ||
| Court |
They are idiots and at least two of them have names. This stupidity will become their legacy in the industry. They'll eventually be remembered as the idiots that took HD to it's knees. The very thought of Erik Buell selling 30,000 bikes a year, in their minds was sufficient to piss away $250,000,000 of shareholders money. It was a loosing bet. MV Agusta is an entirely different story with 4 chapters yet to be written. It's been actively marketed for 4 months. Best offer to date is $1.00. It's worthless. | ||
| Elvis |
And another thing Harley just doesn't seem to get is the image damage they are doing to themselves and the image boost they are giving Erik through their actions. Imagine for a moment how many sales Harley would have lost to Can-Am next year if they had sold the rights. As we know, the bikes aren't really competitive, so lost sales would have been a handful. I'm willing to bet that Harley has ALREADY lost more sales due to the tarnishing of their image over this issue than they would have lost Can-Am over the next 3 years. A major part of Harley's market are "buy American" enthusiasts who want to support American jobs. There have to be some of those people reading about how Harley could have easily saved those 180 jobs and having second thoughts. It has to be frustrating to Harley that every time they try to brag about some new product, they've got Buell fans jumping in and talking about the Buell issue, posting things on the Harley facebook page etc. And now consider what they're doing for Erik: If they had sold to BRP/Can-Am, it wouldn't have been a big deal. We would have been happy and we would have moved our business. People who never liked Harley or Buell wouldn't have taken much notice. But now think about what Harley has offered the Harley haters (and there are a lot of them out there). Imagine 3 or 4 years from now, EBR unveils the EBR-1000, a bike that incorporates a Rotax designed (and, of course Rotax bent over backwards to help Erik because of how Harley screwed them), feather-weight, 4-stroke, square-4. This bike will be the ANTI-Harley and everyone will know it. Erik could even make a point of not including any chrome parts on it (and marketing that feature) and all the motorcycle literates would get the joke. That would open up a whole new market of Harley haters who may have actually avoided buying Buell in the past and who would have been much more neutral regarding a Can-Am Buell. Not only would we be clamoring to buy the bike, but people who have always disliked Haley could see buying that bike as a way to give the finger to Harley. That wouldn't have been the case if they had sold to BRP. As much as I'd like to see Harley gain some sanity and do the right thing, a part of me is almost hoping they don't because it will be fun to see Erik stick it to them down the road. | ||
| Sburns2421 |
I won't cut and paste the entire article but here is the link. http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/02/autos/harley_david son.fortune/index.htm A year ago H-D sold $600M in bonds at 15%. In December they sold an additional $500M at 5.75%. Last fall they were advertising their best rate to finance at 3.99%. Now I ask you, when a company borrows north of a billion dollars on the hope of loaning it out at substantially lower rates, how viable is that business in the long-term? How bad would the numbers for Q4 have been had they not been subsidizing every financed purchase with artificially low rates? I have said it before and will repeat it here: 50/50 chance H-D is broke within five years. Maybe three years at this pace of breathtaking quarterly losses. | ||
| Blake |
People need to be exposed and fired. Let's hear the names! Who knows and is willing/able to share the truth? Contact me offline if necessary. | ||
| Blake |
Don (Skratch), "Buell is and always has been a niche market. By HD dumping the Buell line isn't going to do jack or squat to their overall sales. Simply because people who are looking for a HD style bike aren't going to look at Buell." That is horribly inaccurate. Too many BadWeBrs own both. I myself had seriously entertained the idea of a new road hog for those days when a leisurely cruise seems to best fit my mood and also for two-up where my lady is none too fond of aggressive sport bike riding. I know of a number of folks who have taken such great offense at the way HDI have treated Buell that they and I will no longer entertain any idea of owning the brand or anything bearing the H-D mark. It's a pity, because I really do think some of their bikes are outstanding. I just cannot stomach the idea of associating with the HDI modus operandi. There are some really, I mean REALLY, top notch motorcycle enthusiasts at H-D. I wish they were in charge. Paul James for CEO. | ||
| Skratch |
Blake, In 25 years how many bikes has Buell made/sold? In 25 years how many has HD made/sold? Same question for Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, Ducati, BMW etc? 100,000 bikes in 25 years isn't much. Hence a niche market. I'm sure you can find plenty of Buell fan-boys who, to them, Buell is all there is. Thats fine. But when compared to every other major manufacturer of motorcycles then I would argue that 100,000 isn't a huge number. Look at the amount over every other motorcycle out there. Greatly outnumber Buells. I'm not arguing whether HD did or didn't do the right thing. I think the overwhelming opinion on here (a Buell site no less) is that HD did the wrong thing. Thats fine. But to say my view is horribly inaccurate when your view is based on even more anecdotal evidence than mine. (badwebbkrs, the people you "know" etc) I'm not a Buell fan-boy. I knew little about Buell before I bought mine in December. Thats kinda my point. Harley has been around for over 100 years. The niche that is Buell isn't going to have a long-term effect on HD. When the economy turns around and people have money to spend, more are going to spend money on the bike and image that is HD. Buell is a different kind of experience that alot of HD riders aren't going to care about. But I don't think the reverse is going to be true. But thats my opinion. As a businessman and an investor I think the anger on this site is going to be pretty limited to those that ride Buell. In the scheme of things, thats pretty small. Not trying to be derogatory to anyone here, but in the long term scheme of things this deal with Buell and HD isn't going to amount to much. And if I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. | ||
| Sburns2421 |
Harley compared to Honda or Yamaha is very tiny. H-D will sell perhaps 250,000 bikes if they are lucky in 2010. Honda will sell north of 10 million worldwide. It is true sales of all bikes are down over 40% in the US, H-D revenues reflect this as well. I would offer that the most profitable bikes for Harley, the upper-end big twins, will be the last bikes to see sales rebound. H-D is almost certainly seeing not just the number of bikes sold reduced but also the mix of those bikes shifted to less profitable models with lower original price tags. The question is whether Harley can withstand the duration of the downturn while suffering sales declines, margin declines, and potentially huge losses in the finance arm. At some point they will likely write off the $100M+ they paid for MV Agusta, either giving it away or closing it down. There is more red ink in store for the guys in orange and black. Heads have not yet rolled among H-D executives, I wonder if atrocious Q1 numbers will be enough to have them canned. | ||
| Skratch |
Sburns, you made my point. | ||
| Hairy_cannonball |
It wasn't very long ago that BMW was in the position of marketing a limited outdated product line to an aging shrinking demographic. By expanding their product range and focusing on improvements and performance they now have a product lineup that appeals to a much larger group of consumers. It is interesting to note that although the global market for 500cc and up motorcycles dropped 40% in 2009, BMW only shrank 14.1%. It appears to me that HD is in the position of marketing a limited, outdated product line that appeals to a shrinking aging demographic. The "fad" buyers are done, the "bikers" are getting old, and "motorcyclists" are choosing bikes that offer better performance and value. It really looks to me like Buell could have been used to attract a more diverse group of buyers of all ages. The problem is that if HD had really pushed the marketing of Buell, emphasizing the performance and handling, they would basically have had to slam themselves for making clumsy poor performing motorcycles. | ||
| Skratch |
Oh come on Hairy... Comparing a Buell to a Harley? Thats like comparing a Corvette to a Continental. Thats simply rubbish. | ||
| Hairy_cannonball |
I wasn't comparing Buell to a Harley. I was merely stating that if they started to really push performance they would in effect be educating the consumer away from their own product line. | ||
| Poppinsexz |
Skratch, You laid out the past. The question is what was the potential? The 1125 series was the first time Buell was allowed to build what he wanted and play in the big boy sport bike game. Second year out Buell's were winning races and/or being competitive. Where would we be in 2 more years, that's what was thrown away. | ||
| Skratch |
That would be like saying if Ford markets the power/performance of the Mustang that they are in effect slamming the Lincoln. It still doesn't hold water. In most cases, those that are going to buy a Touring model HD are not the same demographics that are going to buy a Buell. They're two vastly different rides. |
