| Author | Message | ||
     Id073897 |
My guess is that the guys that figured out how to hack and reprogram the ECMs don't really know everything about them or exactly how to program them fully What's wrong with the software? Did you file a bug report? If not, I would ask you to do it now. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
If the people who made the maps in the ECM, (Buell started doing this themself from 2008,before external company did it), did what they where paid for we didn't need to do the reprogramming. That sayed, there is NO ECM in the world I know of right now, that is able to keep up with swapping a exhaust. You need to get the fuel right depending on the exhaust caracteristics. C'mon Easy, you know BMC and every other OEM has the EPA/CARB regulations with which to comply. We know you are keen on selling your exhaust/tune now, so it's natural to talk down to a competing product--but I think a generic high performance tune on any "freeflowing, slip on" exhaust is completely feasible and hopefully what EBR is selling in its Race ECMs. | ||
| Ponti1 |
Fresno, that is in fact what I believe they are selling. Below is a snippet from an e-mail discussing just that. I had asked if they could tell me, in pairing their ECM with an aftermarket slip-on, what pipes were the best match in terms of performance gains. We have tested quite a few, and all of the slip-on types require approximately the same ECU settings at full throttle. Some send back slightly different wave frequencies and amplitudes in mid RPM range, but the O2 sensors will compensate for that. By the way, EBR was classy enough not to answer the question about pipes. It was pointed out that doing so could be construed as an endorsement for one manufacturer over another. That wasn't my intent per se, but I can absolutely see that perspective. | ||
| Id073897 |
We have tested quite a few, and all of the slip-on types require approximately the same ECU settings at full throttle. Some send back slightly different wave frequencies and amplitudes in mid RPM range, but the O2 sensors will compensate for that. Seemingly the only race bike in the world, that is running in WOT under closed loop control. Very surprising. I wonder, why this isn't done with street bikes then ... | ||
| Duggram |
Don't you just love all the confusion here? I learned something interesting yesterday. Supposedly the ECM used in the Buell 1125 is the same one used in the Z06 Corvette. I got this from an electrical engineer/inventor. Amazing. | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Here's a novel approach. If you have questions get the answers from the mouth of the Pegasus. The confusion comes from speculation and denigration. The speculation is from us and the denigration is from all the tuners being shunted off the ole Gravy Train. Why is it so hard to understand that the guy(s) that make the bike and race the bike and have spent the past decade or so getting there would know the bike and how to tune the bike? Why is that such a controversial and unacceptable notion? I think there is something that takes hold of anyone that posts on the 1125 board and makes them act less intelligent and more agressive...sort of like that old Star Trek episode about the Troglodytes... I wear gloves and mask (along with my tinfoil hat) so I'm unaffected.  Lighten up. If you "can't believe" blah blah blah then buy a Race Calibrated ECM and reverse engineer it (if you can) and learn something instead of Speculating and Denigrating. Surely that would be more useful both for the 1125 tuning efforts as well as for the knowledge base here. Make sense? Not trying to pick a fight guys...just felt my common sense tingling so I flew into action...once again. Call me "Captain Obvious" | ||
| Dannybuell |
Mountainstorm; sharp assessment dannybuell | ||
| Duggram |
Mtn, I couldn't agree more. Remember Strongbad that used to post here? He was a Buell race engineer (the guy that wrote the maps for the AMA racers), is a team member of Ruthless Racing (riders Steve Crevier, Darren James, Dave Estok, Olivier Spilborghs) and a sometimes consultant to EBR. He got so fed up with the BS speculation that is spewed here as fact and the slandering he no longer posts here. And that's the point I'm driving at, we need less speculation and more professional fact. I agree with you. Lets hope things improve here. | ||
| Blackflash |
Did anyone get to the dyno yet?Mountainstorm? | ||
| Mountainstorm |
BF I live in VA. Unfortunately there is about 3 feet of snow accumulated in my yard and I live on a mountain at the end of a long gravel road. I can barely get my 4x4 up and down it. Maybe next week...then again they call for more of the same so maybe not. | ||
| A_s_r |
Thank you "Captain Obvious"  | ||
| Ponti1 |
+ another one for Mountainstorm. I can't figure out why such a large percentage of posters in the 1125 section are such combative jackasses. Drastically different feel in here compared to the rest of BadWeb. Good thing they didn't make a Rotax Uly, or the the infection may have spread to Big,Bad&Dirty | ||
| Duggram |
Ponti1, if your comment is directed at me please explain. I only asked for some good information. Not seat of the pants speculation. Information based on objective data is appreciated. Speculation based on subjective experience is not. So if my saying this is combative, tough. My comment about Strongbad leaving is relevant. He is a pro but we've lost his contributions because of speculations in this thread. How is that combative behavior? Even if you don't agree with me, don't I have the same right to comment as everyone else? Think about that before you reply. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
If you have questions get the answers from the mouth of the Pegasus. The confusion comes from speculation and denigration. The speculation is from us and the denigration is from all the tuners being shunted off the ole Gravy Train. EBR has been slow with the emails--at least for the last week. Too bad they don't post up here--it might save them from receiving lots of emails. I totally agree, most of the conjecture and speculation is coming from the other tuner-for-$$$ people and people who have dropped coin on said competing products. | ||
| Ponti1 |
Duggram, PM sent. My comment is not directed at you.} | ||
| Duggram |
For the record, this summer I'm planning to take my 1125 to EBR for engine and suspension work. Is there anyone else that could do a better job? I haven't contacted them yet because one, my resources won't be freed up until this summer, and two that's when the race season takes a break at my home track. If they will work on it then I will get the race pipe and their map. I already have the race ECM. I also want the 1190 kit, especially the rods and crank work. Their body parts and cooling package are also a must, as are the mag wheels, lighter subframe, etc. My Torque Hammer will be for sale soon after. Not because I don't like it. I don't need it. The EBR pipe and map make more power. It's as simple as that. The Torque Hammer with whatever map you like would make a great street slip on. It will be interesting to hear what Dris has to say after he gets a chance to dyno an EBR ECM with Torque Hammer. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
It will be interesting to hear what Dris has to say after he gets a chance to dyno an EBR ECM with Torque Hammer. I can already tell you what he won't say... | ||
| Duggram |
Now that's funny!! But we have to remember that he's just trying to make a living like the rest of us. I have nothing against Dris. He and Pete have been big help to me. I think Dris is good people and a lot gets distorted in the language translation. | ||
| Mountainstorm |
I like to live under the assumption we are all good people...but for some reason the internet brings out the worst in us. It's an uphill battle expecting people to communicate sincerely when you cannot look them in the eye. I know I post things just for "teh lulz" on occasion but I try not act like an incorrigible d-bag either. | ||
| Nickg |
fresno...I emailed EBR and had a response in like 1 hour...we then exchanged several emails that night. I can't complain. | ||
| Moosestang |
I like to live under the assumption we are all good people...but for some reason the internet brings out the worst in us. It's an uphill battle expecting people to communicate sincerely when you cannot look them in the eye. I know I post things just for "teh lulz" on occasion but I try not act like an incorrigible d-bag either. There is no consequences on here, unless of course you can track them down and show up in person, like Jay and Silent Bob did! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjWFZPJZTxU LOL! (Message edited by moosestang on February 07, 2010) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
fresno...I emailed EBR and had a response in like 1 hour...we then exchanged several emails that night. I can't complain. Did this occur recently? What was the subject of the emails? Does it relate to the Race ECMs? Do you care to share? | ||
| Captain_america |
@mountainstorm (captain obvious) Just to lighten things up...  | ||
| Jdugger |
Who knew Cap'n Obvious was a queer Stuntah? | ||
| Duggram |
Yikes!! | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
So what's with the term "Gravy Train" and "Tune for $$$." We have a shop in N Calif and there is not a single Buell racer that has ever came our way we have not tried to help any way we could. FYI, mapping Buell's is anything but a gravy train! average time to develop a new map from scratch is over 20 hour in the box. The ones we are successful with we share at a fair price, I charge the going rate in the area for a full custom map, but have never made enough on maps in one month to make the dyno payment or the rent. As far as EBR goes Jimmy and I wish them the best. We have been in touch with them about getting our local AFM 1125 rider's bike up to DSB specifications, It has the pipe, ECM, swing arm and currently working with EBR on the valve timing. Don't get me wrong just like EBR, we are a struggling for profit business. I am looking forward to selling and installing EBR products especially the OTC $250 ECM if it saves our customer some money. To our all customers from coast to coast, we are going to try and stick this out and hope we can. Terry www.jtsperformance.com | ||
| Mountainstorm |
If you charge several hundred dollars to flash an ECM without actually putting the customer's bike on the Dyno that's a Gravy Train. The hard work is done... now it's a relatively quick and almost free process to flash ECM after ECM. Gravy trains are good. Any tradesman wants a few of those to give his business a shot in the arm. No arguments there. I don't contest the fact that developing the map takes time. And having a bike on the dyno and developing a map specific to that bike is going to cost a lot of money. Again no argument. And my guess is a session with a good tuner like yourself or Dris or the guy in Ohio would eventually produce a superior result...better even than a Plug n Play ECM. But for almost all non-race riders a Plug n Play solution is adequate and the price is more manageable. Here's where Captain Obvious changes into his pink tights. Tuners that were making coin off our need for a decent map are now worried about their coin. And judging from the posts on the 1125 board are "fighting back" with words instead of price cuts. That's not working. Before there was a comparable product a tuner with a developed map could charge whatever the market would bear. Now the competition has made that a lot harder to do. Not many are going to spend $750 on an ECM when they can get one for 1/3rd the price. I don't think that's being confrontational, I think it's being obvious. What may not be so obvious is the way the word-fights obscure and confuse the market issues. Strip away the hot air and what you've got is simple economics at work. What I think might be a little out of the ordinary is for anyone to introduce a competitive product for so much less than the going rate...but then again Buell has always been out of the ordinary. I'd like to think that it's because Erik Buell genuinely appreciates our enthusiasm for his machines and is "giving back" to the community. It always pisses people off when that happens  | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Richard not pissed off at anyone especially Erik and company and could not agree more with the idea of using an OTC ECM. Over the years I have also tuned what I call the Henry Duga Race Only ECM and it's worth every penny of the $750 it cost. In the very near future we will be installing a series of slip-on Y pipes and cans featuring dual 02 sensors for dyno tuning using direct link. We will also be installing the new Dyno Jet PC-V over the top of a stock and EBR OTC ECM using the same pipes and cans. We are a performance shop specializing in Buells and we think it's fair to charge for what we do. You are correct in that it should and does cost less for a down load compared to the same map loaded into your ECM and then custom tuned again using our dual sensor Y pipes. But even at that there is no way we can do it at our shop rate and make money. We feel that there is a serious need for some up-dated maps for both the 1125 and the entire XB family, so we will keep on trying using every tool we can find, hoping that our good will, can win us a few more customers. Terry www.jtsperformance.com | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Buelldyno_guy, I don't think anyone is raising an issue with the work of tuners who actually dyno tune each customer's bike and provide a map optimized for that customer's bike. Time is worth money, so if what you charge for that service is based on a "reasonable" flat fee or if it's a "time x $xx per hour", so be it. The gravy train was companies like the Old Sweaty Balls that charged more than $300 for a mail-order tune that is a one-size fits all deal. That $300+ bought software on a CD and a USB dongle that locked the software to just one bike to prevent "sharing". The actual overhead in selling that $300+ package (the initial labor to create the tune notwithstanding) was probably about $15-$20. That's one hell of a profit margin, right? Now $250 will buy you an ECM with a tune that is undoubtedly better than Old Sweaty, simply because it doesn't disable key functionality in the fuel system--namely the O2 sensor(s). Old Sweaty's pricing was a rip-off before the EBR ECM came around, but since there weren't a whole lot of plug-and-play alternatives that existed, quite a few people bought it anyway, and Old Sweaty was on the gravy train. With the EBR ECM now in play for $250, someone would have to be pretty much nuts to give $300+ to Old Sweaty, or to anyone else selling a canned mail-order tune for around that much money. Those canned tune salesmen have two choices--either adjust their prices to a fair market value and hope to maintain a customer share, or keep their outrageous prices in the hopes that there are still a few uninformed people who will throw their money at them. I haven't heard of Old Sweaty (or anyone else) dropping his price down to $100, so I'm guessing that he's opted for the latter. | ||
| Ratsmc |
Terry, I think you will be able to continue doing what you do as there will be a need for it. I think the sentiment being expressed is directed at those offering a map for download without any actually tuning. What you offer is a service. What the download guys and EBR are offering is a product. EBR just undercut the market on that and most owners looking for a product are relieved that they have a superior offering at a better price. We now hove something closer to what other bikes have. That doesn't change the need for the services you offer just as it doesn't for any other bike. I think mostly people here are thankful we have the options that other riders do. We'll always need you to chase that last bit of performance for us. |
