| Author | Message | ||
     Blackflash |
I was also told by the little bee i probably lost some hp due to me being cut short .I should throw the paperwork in his face and redyno it. I revved that beast at 10.5 every run.There must be a lag time in data transfer and he cut the datalogging short | ||
| Blackflash |
Onto the next downpipe.I will use 1.75 downpipe material into a merge before the muffler.I will use the merge "weld it on the muffler". | ||
| Justa4banger |
Oppps... my bad i missed that...i apoligize.. for some reason i was under the impression that he had a stock air filter.. well that does change things a bit.. This just means your getting more flow from your pipe thus requiring more fueling... i wish we could overlay the 2 different dynographs and see where each pipe gains an loses. make no mistake i'm not voting for either of you. i think it is great that both made similiar power and both increases the exhaust note. but its obvious that each pipe does change the characteristics of the bike a little. yours provides a smidge more hp on the top and his provides a smidge more trq. Another factor you have to consider is the condition of the O2 sensor at each dyno shop. these things do wear out... If i was you though i would work on getting the a/f a little richer... i willing to bet that it would gain some hp or atleast stay the same and run a little safer. | ||
| Justa4banger |
Ones things for certain, i think all of us on Badweb are appreciative for both of ya'll efforts. there will always be slight differences in every setup... One way to compare the 2 pipes, if you guys would want that, is to have someone else test both pipes on their bike on the same dyno/same bike.. that would show alot... it would show the differences in tune requirements, hp numbers and trq numbers... Either way if i was you Adams i would consider getting your bike tuned to a little bit safer a/f ratio.. remember both of ya'll are in areas of where its cold, come summer time when things heat up the a/f ratio may change in a manner that is worse or better than now...most likely worse due to the added heat. | ||
| Blackflash |
I want to add my bike has 18k. I will clean it up and get it to another dyno . I want more than one dynos results.adams you might find out that adding fuel will bump your tq up but hp will stay the same. Ive concluded tests that adding fuel didnt add 1 to2 peak hp numbers and only added tq more hp is gained in between and tq as wll but as far as me running the pfu and it only gain 4 hp was because its not the right pfu . Its the pfu for the stock pipe not a open style. I used it for laughs. N | ||
| D_adams |
That was my point. Mine runs the same as a stock pipe, so tuning it for the stocker would gain the same results, or very close at any rate. Yours on the other hand runs richer than stock. I guess my other question is why and what can be done to fix it? Taking fuel away will drop both hp and torque, right? One comment I heard when mine was dyno'd was "you need more backpressure" but I don't think thats the case. It looks to me like it flows at least as much as stock, but without a flow bench to hook it up to, I'll never know. Besides, you don't want backpressure, you want velocity and volume, which is what I've got. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Correct again Dean I do believe. Air flow first then add fuel and viola...horsepower. I believe you will get quite a bit more from a good tune of your choosing especially Dris's and the "Other guys" Only question and one I have been pondering is stock setup tune or performance muffler/air cleaner tune in the form of readymade flashes. I'm leaning towards the latter but understand one which you manipulate all parameters individually would be best but at the very high cost of a lot of dyno time. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Blackflash, also I believe if you gain torque and have the same rpm and do the math, you have to add H.P. Something like HP=torque X rpm's if I am correct. Maybe explaining a little further would help me understand what you mean. With all respect, Bob | ||
| D_adams |
Hp and torque always cross at 5252 rpm. The formula is HP = torque x rpm divided by 5252 | ||
| Blackflash |
Okay here's my opinion on tuning the r . I don't believe the r has much potential with the stock ecu. I believe it's stock base is pretty much what your gonna get . You get a full race ECM that might be another story.And for everyone that's acting very unclassy here look at my dyno charts before you ridicule and bury yourself with your own words. "Look" at my first stock run afr ." Look" at the second run. I was very close to stock . D Adams how far was your sniffer in the pipe?these bikes are known on the dyno to produce false readings If your sniffer is less than 8 inches in your pipe it will show false readings. It will show leaner. You probably are right on 14.1. I had to bend the copper pickup tube all up to get it way up in the pipe. If this wasn't done your readings are most likely bad . A little tip for you inexperienced dyno people. | ||
| Blackflash |
I feel obligated to get shity here after the rude and unclassy remarks were made. I haven't completely jacked any threads but it's getting there . We might see a pink elephant soon or purple bunnies.The angle of the merge and the location I believe were poor choices for Adams setup.your primaries are to big and to short. But we will find out what a properly installed 15 degree 10" long merge and a X possibly will produce. More to come people more to come. The stock downpipe was just for curiosity. | ||
| D_adams |
Ok, I'm lost here. Who made the comment that you feel is "rude and unclassy" and what was it? Assuming it was me, I have not personally attacked anything you've said or done. I asked polite, concise questions and stated my opinions, but not once did I say anything derogatory about you or your work. As I see it, you fired the first salvo with the gay harley techs comment. I responded to that with a recommendation not to visit the state of Missouri based on my concern for your personal safety. Usually when I make comments like that, I fully expect to get into an ass kicking contest in short order. What gives? Why do you feel the need to attack anyone who posts relevant questions to your "product" in regards to it's performance? Me, I'm not advertising anything. Notice I posted mine as a how-to, not "hey, here's a pipe I'm building and I'll sell it for $300" and then followed it up with complete documentation on exactly how to make your own pipe. If I could safely make a video of the actual welding, I'd do it, but I work alone, so that makes it kinda tough. Knowledge is power and I intended for everyone who wanted to know how to do it can get started. None of this stuff is rocket science, but it does require some math and a little bit of intelligence to calculate some stuff out. I made some fairly educated guesses and based my design on what I thought would work. Blake/Froggy or whoever, if I've stepped over a line anywhere, let me know please. (Message edited by d_adams on January 20, 2010) | ||
| Justa4banger |
wow i'm confused | ||
| Blackflash |
I'm not selling anything.if I stumble across something good and put it in a low production scale so be it.Big companies can only provide great products and quality with great prices. But until I get a good setup a truely good setup I'm not offering anything to people. If people would like to participate in this setup So be it . Which I have a few already that will help get more dyno sheets on other bikes & not a 18 k bike.And these dyno results will be from real people . You can't take a couple dyno results and say it's good . Any clown knows that.There's still alot to do and find out. Dynosshow good baselines . That it . I plan to use the brake on my next dyno runs and get some different load comparisons. Not just wot pulls. At 40$ rate on the dyno I'll be playing alot. So anyways how far was your sniffer in the pipe? Personally the ass kickin stuff is pretty low. Let's keep it cleaner Adams. I do like your work and your documentry. You are a do it yourselfers like me . I hope that if I come to MS That I don't have to wear a pink cape to hide myself while entering. All we are doing here is trying to see what's a good setup design and keep it openly for public viewers. I gave ideas that I believe would make yours better. Not insults. The merge on the buell pipe is farther and sharper than yours . That's where I believe you could improve your design. But if your happy with the way things are cool. I'm only striving to see what is the best setup so others can relate . I didn't build a pipe and say THATS GOOD. It's not about that with me. There's always bigger ideas and better ways. Thinking outside the box is what I do . I throw all that crap aside and look at the big picture. Take a example here. The stock pipe if you really look into it after you add all the baffles how they go back and forth the length is pretty impressive for how much space they had. Longer header lengths equal better torque at low Rpms and more hp at the top. That's one way I based my pipe keep it as close to the wheel as i could and add 3 baffles to keep the total length of Baffles and downpipe as long as I could. It will create good results. Now I plan on lengthening the downpipes 1.75 tube and merge it right at the muffler . Now I will see what that produces. That's my next step. | ||
| Captain_america |
Whoa! Easy guys, don't worry I'll wear the pink cape... I don't mind. | ||
| Blackflash |
Can we get that last pic of captain pullin a wheelie up in here . God that was so good captain. I was Rollin my azz off. | ||
| D_adams |
Calling HD techs gay, stupid and low $$ earners isn't low? I so love blanket statements that cover the guys that work their butts off. Personally, I couldn't care less what it is you do for a living, but give these guys a little credit for at least trying to put food on the table and take care of families. Lots of luck with your sales plans with the attitude you have. I just hope you're not in the sales department where you're employed. I would have fired you a long time ago for bashing potential customers and the way you conduct yourself here. Be very glad you don't work for me, because it wouldn't have lasted long at all. I didn't start this and as far as I'm concerned, you have nothing to say worth replying to at this point. Have a nice life, hope everything works out for you. | ||
| Captain_america |
Yeah Buddy!!!!  | ||
| Blackflash |
Harley customer satifaction reprorts will be posted soon. I know I read somewhere that Harley had the most complaints. I agree that adams on people working and putting food on the table. God bless them. But how many times has someone posted on here how thier bike was improperly maintained by a Harley tech. Alot!! I have had bad waraanty work done at 3 different dealers. And from talking to other local Ohio buellers they have had similiar results. Most people aren't smart enough to notice the little detail . Such as my clutch line melting on the exhaust after I got it back . Or my belt falling off, or my frame had a dent in it after I recieved it back. Or the guy that was screaming at one place that blew his xb12r up because they forgot to put oil in it. Hewas fully taken care of but tried to send him out the door with his bike knocking. I've seen and heard alot of bad stuff. But have never heard nothing too horrible about other big companies. Quality standards are low with Harley. All the dealership want to do is sell accessories . That's where they make their money is when I idiot walks in and wants a exhaust put on and bags . They give him a 1500.00 bill pat him on the butt send him his way. That's what dealers want a 800.00 profit on 2 hrs of work . Not work on 25$ hour warranty labor rates .They usually get 60$ plus.And usually they give the 25$ rates to the least talented/payed tech because they aren't gonna pay thier top techs which makes 18$-20$ to work on it. They don't make money like that. hey Adams for laughs ask any person at your dealer if they have been to a rotax class. Probably not one. They did offer it not many dealers participated I was told by buell customer service when I put my complaints in. Have a good one buddy !! Just being realistic not fairy like. | ||
| Blackflash |
Hell I looked up two Harley techs records that worked on my bike online in the court system. One robbed a gas station the other had arson charges. Just great!! Low standards set by Harley!! | ||
| Blackflash |
Your the best captain!! That's fricken awesome!! | ||
| Blackflash |
Well round two has started at noon today.First off to make a actual true merge not formed merge.  2nd put some legs on     next use the scrap elbows I had laying around and start fitting them    All tacked ready for weld.This version is a mounted as one unit .This is a prototype and is migged lightly.My friend will clean it up with his tig if alls well he told me. It will also have slipon style at the merge and will have spring clips like the jardine.This will give great flexability to fitting the unit.We all know the pipes are not exactly identical and there has been issues with fitment.Notice the primarys.I have added quite a bit of length to them .I believe this is goodv for low end tq and top end hp.Also notice that the merge is a true merge not a formed as I was going to use. Its 1" longer than the formed .And the angle is steeper too where they meet. I believe this is better than the conventional formed merge .I will give this setup a shot.I talked to the dyno guy about my runs being short on the rpm range.He said bring it back in and well pull ten more. Well I'll use this downpipe and see what I get. Cheers   | ||
| Blackflash |
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| Chameleon |
Keep up the great work! Nice pink bits up there. LOL | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Nice work Blackflash, nice routing and well thought out. Nice execution. Nice merge for the collector. Is that a turbo type muffler or your own? You guys are making me want to try another one myself. I'm pondering but cannot afford both another system and an ECM flash tune and I'm favoring a tune since I'm satisfied with mine so far and I think a tune, especially "that One" will be more benefit. Good job man. Bob | ||
| Captain_america |
Awesome Blackflash! its so nice that you are doing all the hard work... ha ha that's gonna save me soooo much time and money. I really am looking forward to see which setup works better. tell that dyno guy to bring it to redline! | ||
| Blackflash |
It's not super pretty . But a rough version with all my turnout scraps. All those welds which are migged and big .It could just be a couple bends premade up and welded at the merge. I'm getting down back to bussiness here folks. Exhaust !! And looking for gains!! To help others understand what works and what doesn't . Trial and error. We found out that the stock downpipe was very close to stock performance with this muffler . Now onto better designs and better ideas . I believe this one will be the ticket. Well see. Cheers all. Maybe the x will be next with a merge before the muffler.thinking ouside the box is what i do best. | ||
| Justa4banger |
Or do a dual in and use perferated pipe to make the mege inside the muffler  | ||
| Ravnna431 |
Damn that pink cape is HOT!!!!! LOL | ||
| Blackflash |
The whole plan 4banger was to keep the whole setup as long as possible within reason .If I do a dual in x style inside the muffler I believe its to far away from the primarys to help.And I lost a baffle. The whole plan was to try the stock downpipe. Then try a merge setup at the muffler. lengthen the primarys and try to keep the same length as the stock mufflers baffles add up to.There is one problem that comeS with lengthening headers.But I didnt hear it out of the pipe yet. "They get real poppy" LIKE I SAID THIS IS JUST SCRAPS .Half ss and half steel. A cleaner version with bends & a little tig welding would make it look great. Test ride tommorrow if it doesnt rain. Cheers  |
