| Author | Message | ||
     1340busa |
ive heard alot about the jardine protune 3. wats the final verdict? is it worth the money or not? i would like to use one with a d&d and k&n filter. | ||
| D_adams |
I'd like an auto-tuner setup myself. | ||
| 1340busa |
yeah me 2. i caleed fuelmoto and asked jamie if dynojet was workin on a powercommander. he said that he hasnt heard anything. | ||
| D_adams |
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/power commander_v.aspx?mk=21&mdl=318&yr=2009 | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Is the autotune just the wideband Oxygen sensor plugin for the POwer Commander or some other sort of tuning device? I have the Jardine Pro Tune installed with an HMF and K&N and have yet to do any dyno runs to see what happened. I don't notice any power difference at the seat of my pants. | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
yea im curious too as to what the autotune is?? anybody know?? Jake | ||
| 1340busa |
from wat i understand wit my hayabusa is that the autotune adjust constantly while u ride. always keepin the perfect air fuel ratio. it would have to use 2oxy sensors for the buell | ||
| D_adams |
It uses 2 wideband sensors, 2 or maybe 3 base maps to switch from and the auto-tune option you can set the AF ratio I think, like 12:1 or 14:1 or even higher. | ||
| Cherry_bomb |
according to the specs on the powercommander-site, auto-tune uses just one 02-sensor for the autotune-function. with all liquid-cooled engines there is just one sensor. just for the air-cooled harley's they offer a 2 sensor-solution. different maps for each cylinder. | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Thanks for the info guys. One more question: is the Auto-tune a stand alone tuner? | ||
| D_adams |
Not sure why they'd use a universal kit with only one sensor on a Buell but offer a dual model for HD. Last time I looked they were both twins. It looks like it's a piggy-back setup to they power commander unit.
(Message edited by d_adams on January 04, 2010) | ||
| Highscore |
Isn´t the Jardine protune 3 subject here? I think the Jardine-unit is same stuff like this: http://www.dobeckperformance.com/GEN3/Gen3technolo gy.asp Dobeckperformance belongs to Mark Dobeck, the founder of Dynojet. There is good reason for that this new company only was founded to caver the "low budget" segment of the FI-controller market too. The company distributes its products in Europe for example via the Italian exhaust manufacturer "GPR" by placing a different sticker on it. The former name of Dobeckperformance was Techlusion, which is in my opinion derived from "technical illusion". The illusion is that this new and intuitive, carburetor-style Dobeck-technique is "load-based". But this is not the case, because to sense load by a fuel controller you must sense the signal of the TPS sensor. To keep the wiring of its device simple, Dobeckperformance just measures the injector pulses regarding length and - a by-product of this procedure - engine speed: That is its only information about engine state. The "illusory" surrogate, Dobeck offers for true engine load, is to adjust the fueling according average riding habits: Below a certain rpm-mark there is the low-load-cruising range, when the demand for engine power is higher, commonly the engine speed is higher too. To cover the different "load-based" engine needs for fuel supply, the Dobeck-box has in its old version a pot, which adjustment defined, at which rpm-point the range "low power cruising range end and the "high power range" starts. Using two other pot gave the the opportunity to add a special amount of additional fuel to the low rang and another to the "high range". The gen 3 now has no pots, but knobs, but the general operation principle seems to be the same. Well, on mediocre powered bike like a Harley, where you must shift down, when you feel the need for thrust, this arrangement may work. But a high performance bike has different needs for its fuel supply. Especially the load range at the corner apex, with very little load but rather high engine speed, asks for special care, when setting up the fuel injection, because the throttle response in this range is essential for the feel and character of a high performance bike. Dobeckperformance applies for this range is sadly inevitably the same adjustment and fueling as for WOT. This is unacceptable. Therefore it is more than casual that Dobeck uses a Harley to explain the function of his system. For riding such heavy metal on a highway, the adjustability of the device may be sufficient. But when you are concerned with real performance, you need a sharper toll to adjust the engine fueling. Another shortcoming of this simple box is furthermore, that it just allows tho enrich the mixture. But to design a fuel curve which really matches to the engine, not seldom - at least in some areas of the range - some fuel must kept away from the engine, no to mention of the possibility to perform such adjustments cylinder-selectively. This device is a gadget. But a perfect one from the manufacturer´s point of view: This box never does anything wrong. If you feel anything suboptimal, this is just the effect,because you have failed the proper setting or have been just not patient enough to find them. Highscore | ||
| Highscore |
D_Adams: "Not sure why they'd use a universal kit with only one sensor on a Buell but offer a dual model for HD." If you like to convert the PC-V for the Buell 1125, you just have to solder the proper connectors to it. But regarding autotune by using wide band lambda probes, there are other problems: 1. WB-probes go on "tilt" when operated at exhaust temperatures beyond 750°C. This limit is a consequence of its design. So it will be hard to find a position at the headers, where temperature of the exhaust gases is below this benchmark. 2. A WB-probe reacts pretty fast to any change in direction "lean", but definitely slower in the opposite direction. Furthermore the delay of this kind of probe to sense a change of exhaust gas´ oxygen concentration depends on the amount of change for this concentration. So of the concentration just shifts from 14,7 to 14,5, this derivation is sensed fast and accurately by a WB-probe. But if the concentration changes for a larger extent, from 13,3 to 12, the WB probe needs considerable time, some tenth of a second, to recognize this derivation. This delay in response is caused by the fact, that the ability of the ceramic inside of the probe´s test-cell is limited regarding its ability to dissipate oxygen-ions thru the substrate. Therefore, if the difference of oxygen-concentration extends a certain critical limit, the number of oxygen-ions, "wishing" to move into the probe´s test-cell raises proportionally. But until this whole "crowd" of ions has arrived in the test-cell, it needs time. And until the sum of ions has not set its effect to its ceramic, the WB test-cell does the concentration change just not sense. I am aware, what I try to explain here, sounds weird, since you heard nothing about it in the fact sheets of Innovate etc. Well, I use no Innovate or similar stuff, I use real a real "laboratory"-WB-probe, which shows nothing else but the "heating-current" of the test-cell in a straight forward "analog manner". This pic may help to illustrate the problem:  This shot shows in "yellow" and "white" the injector pulse width at the injector of a stock Helicon engine; "red" is engine speed, "blue" load is TPS-voltage (here WOT). The "grey-white" line, starting in the middle of the "y"-axis and dropping over the range down, is the signal of my WB-probe. It starts here around lambda=1 or 14,7, because, when starting a dyno run, there is little load and therefore the engine is on "closed loop". The test run starts, when the "blue" line jumps up. Accordingly you see an immediate jump on the "white" curves too. This jump is nothing else but the acceleration enrichment, performed by the ECU, when the throttle is twisted. Please note now the gentle fall of the "grey-white" lambda-curve, after the throttle is pushed to WOT. This is mainly caused by the delay of the WB-probe to sense the change of oxygen-concentration in the exhaust. For this reasons an autotune, featuring WB-probes, works only properly, when the engine state is steady load and just slow changes of its speed and load occur. But for fixing the fuel under acceleration and when the engine works purely transient, the signal of a WB-probe is simply too slow and/or nor precise enough. Another argument for my scepticism about WB-autotune: WB-probes exist for more than 10 years. If this probe would be the final and perfect answer to all needs in engine fueling, this method would be a common standard. And we had no need to talk about this subject. Highscore | ||
| Jeepinbueller |
Highscore: I really enjoy reading your posts regarding engine tuning (as well as Easyrider) ... though long-winded, at least you have a grasp on the English language -- unlike a lot of know-it-alls (not knocking anybody on here ... mostly referring to other forums). So it's a breath of fresh air: thank you. From your explanation of the "Dobeck box" (AKA Jardine's Protune III), it seems that the missing input is the TPS so the unit knows what kind of load you're putting on the engine and can adjust the fuel accordingly. Are there any piggy-back systems that take this into account, or is a dyno tune the really only way to get a great running 1125? | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Thanks Highscore. I feel like I have a grasp of what the Jardine device does for the first time. The link to the dobeck info was useful. I realize that the unit has real shortcomings as a "perfect" tuning device but I am still wondering if it fulfills the requirement of richening the AFV to accomodate a freer flowing exhaust and air filter? Any thoughts on that? I bought the Pro tune mainly due to my concern of running the bike too lean. I've changed the exhaust and air filter so I assumed that could create a lean condition. My Buell mechanic (who also races Buells) told me that the ECM would correct the mixture to adapt to the exhaust and filter. But other reports here contradict that. Clarification and a better understanding of this would be a great help. From what I now understand the Pro tune is basically harmless would you agree? It would be good to know that (despite warnings from others on the forum that connecting a Pro Tune will void the factory warranty)in fact the tuning device could at worst create an over-rich condition and nothing more. Thanks again. | ||
| Highscore |
@ Jeepinbueller: Rather all piggy back -controller, I know, which use injector pulse with modulation, sense for TPS-voltage for their operation. The exception here is the Dobeck-unit. Regarding "load": "Engine load" means the work and force it executes to overcome a resistance. In the case of a vehicle the first resistance, its engine has to overpower to accelerate and bring it up to move, is the inertia moment of its mass, when coming up to speed the air drag becomes more an more the limiting factor, determining the point where the sum of resistances subdue the engine force (I pass here on other resistance factors to keep the picture simple). Testing an engine at WOT on the dyno means testing this limit as the outside and "objective side" of "engine performance". The German word for "load" in this context is "Last". A possible translation for it is "demand", as the inquiry to an engine for load. Every engine covers a device for this "inquiry" which controls its output and thereby the amount of resistance or vehicle speed. This is the throttle, offering a whole range of positions and openings between the benchmarks "idle", shut down, and WOT. The throttle and its opening represents the rider input and thereby the "subjective side" of engine performance. As long as there is some twist on the grip before WOT, the ability of an engine, to overwhelm load and resistance, is not crucial: more throttle is the reply. From my point of view this subjective side of engine performance is its way and style to transform the drivers´s input via the throttle into acceleration. "Performance" here means the manner of an engine to execute this driver´s input. I like an engine which responds "clear and transparent" to each single fraction of throttle, linking the engine´s power production directly to my personal actual demand for: Perfect control for a trust a liquid as quicksilver. To sense throttle response you do not need a dyno, a mismatched response will be noticed immediately by the irritation during ride. To determine such a "handful" of throttle I sense only the throttle and the TPS-signal, correlated to its opening angle, as the "other side of engine load". Within this range of subjectivity measuring the engine output does not make a better picture. @ mountainstorm I do not think the gen-3 harms the engine. My critic about this device concerns its operation by fueling the engine like a watering can. Over-riching scarifies performance but does not cause any damage, not even to the catalytic converter. Highscore | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Thanks | ||
| Captain_america |
While i see that an alpha numeric (TPS and RPM) type system works ... why not use speed density (engine vacuum and RPM) to determine fueling requirements? The company i work for develops stand alone EFI systems for high performance vehicles here in the states and i prefer speed density over alpha N any day. we also us a Wide-band O2 sensor (Bosch LSU4) that is plenty responsive for cars that are making 1500 horse power naturally aspirated or under boost. if i read correctly highscore, the pot method of tuning is very primitive and although some companies are just now catching on we have moved past that type of tuning over 4 years ago. is it not possible to use a table with load and rpm based cells that is fined tuned with O2 sensors in closed loop at all times? why do they shut closed loop off at WOT for example. our systems are always in closed loop unless the engine is below 150 degrees coolant temp or you are decelerating. or is there not enough fuel trim allowed with the stock ECM to allow for adjustments needed for an exhaust and air filter upgrade? | ||
| Captain_america |
i do know why they shut closed loop off.. its because of the use of a narrow band sensor not being able to read a rich enough air/fuel. | ||
| Trafford |
Well I have a question! If I have a 'well known' ECM and acceleration and everything above 4000rpm is amazing but I still have slow running low speed steady throttle surging and erratic tickover.......would a Protune III allow me to 'tune' just this 'Pilot jet' area and leave the ECM to deal with all other control areas? | ||
| Trafford |
From their blurb it says Load Based!! Pro Tune 3 Fuel Programming Card - 2008-2009 1125R •LOAD BASED Technology with one number interface •Fuel control without altering the stock fuel map •Integrated Buttons provide easy adjustment and on the fly tuning of fuel delivery •LED lights indicate either real time injector duty cycle or air fuel ratio •Will not interfere with motorcycle stock sensors and inputs •Both Race Applications as well as CARB legal versions available |
