| Author | Message | ||
     Easyrider |
merry x-mas: http://www.twinmotorcycles.nl/artikelen.asp THIS TOPIC IS ALL ABOUT THE GENERAL TUNING OFF A 1125 CR (Message edited by easyrider on December 29, 2009) | ||
| Duggram |
Dris, that's a cliff hanger!! Please let us know results with the Torque Hammer when available. Thank you. | ||
| Justa4banger |
Good info to know.... and as i suspected, any changes to exhaust or air filter drastically change the a/f ratio for the worse...Some things just come better in 3's.. intake, exhaust, tune.. good read, thanks for posting | ||
| Xelerator |
@ Easyrider: "...I changed the Timing map and adjusted the fuel only at WOT." What fuel grade? Please be more specific with the timing changes you made. Thanks Chris | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
The thing is that the bike wasn't given an opportunity to relearn its AFV after installing the K&N filter. So while it definitely ran leaner after changing out the filter, would the ECM have compensated given a bit of time to relearn? Interesting stuff, nonetheless. | ||
| Ohsoslow |
Were all of these dyno runs done on the same day? | ||
| Littlebutquick |
great write up very interesting really like the bit about the guy in the UK he must be little but quick  | ||
| Easyrider |
Xelerator My daily work is adjusting and testing Fuel and timing for all Buell Motorcycles. Every Exhaust has a diferent timing to achieve the best smoothnes and strong running bike. When you look at the picture in my link you see I measure the burned fuel in the exhaust, then you get a AF reading and that is what i adjust in the table inside the ECM. The timing is the same story only without a graph. | ||
| Easyrider |
Ohsoslow, Yes all in the same day on the same bike, in the same dyno room, with the same petrol. | ||
| Easyrider |
Littlebutquick Well, I didn't found anybody in the world that was quicker... (-: | ||
| Ohsoslow |
That is some impressive/ hard to belive increase in power just by swapping out the air filter | ||
| Easyrider |
ohsoslow, More important look at the AF (red stock, Blue with K&N)  How lean the bike is running this is only WOT but in cruising it is even worse.. I wish I had some kind of camera to show you guys what is happening on the dyno with the AF values.. (Message edited by easyrider on December 25, 2009) | ||
| Colintornado |
So with k and n filter only it is giving more power and torque,I was about to buy a k+n until I read several reports that with one fitted the ecm seems to alter the afv to a lower value ie less fuel.(ie indicating the k+n is more restrictive than the standard filter) This seems contrary to what we see on the dyno etc.. ??? | ||
| Colintornado |
OK, I have thought and read more and it must be that in the learning area of the closed loop it must be richer in order to force the global afv leaner(due I assume to the VE being changed,not the filter being less restrictive). So fitting a k and n filter is not a good idea on a standard engine.If the afv can be locked and increased it would be better,but altering the map also is the only way to fully benefit. I will shut up now. Merry Christmas. | ||
| Justa4banger |
Fleshrocket.... i don't think the ECM could "learn" enough to compensate for the K&N filter..those O2 sensors that the ECM " learns" from are basically junk... Very Narrowband. this why you can disable them with no ill effect on the engine.. you get a dummy light but the bike runs just fine. The issue with Speed density setups is everything is a calculated guess. Mess with a fixed parameter ..ie filter or exhaust... and the ECM is lost...end of story. It should just be put out there to get a tune along with any exhaust, airfilter upgrades.. Plenty on here will say its not necessary but IMO it should be mandatory... now if our bikes had a Mass air flow sensor, then the ECM could "Learn" from measuring a higher airflow value and thus increase fueling accordingly... unfortunately we don't have MAF sensors...it's a bummer.. So HOW lean is the cruise a/f ratios for those who care????? I mean hell LEAN is MEAN right  right until you blow it up... | ||
| Pash |
AFR at cruise is going to affect your MPG. General rule of thumb is that stoich gives best catalyst operation, stoich + 10% more fuel gives max power (use all the air up), stoich - 10% fuel gives max efficiency (use all the fuel up). You can go leaner than stoich - 10% fuel, but you start to increase the cycle by cycle variation and hence smoothness of the engine. The amount you can lean out to will be engine design specific. For cruise you ideally want to be leaner than stoich, unfortunately, the 1125R is closed loop on both cylinders (unlike DFDI tubers and DFDI2 XBs) so you are limited to stoich. The O2 sensor is quite a capable piece of kit, and if the fuel map is set up well, it will correct for all the uncertainties such as engine deterioration and sensor error and protect you at WOT if a system failure causes the engine to run lean. The O2 sensor is analogous to a penis, you should not chop it off cos you don't know what to do with it...  | ||
| Crackhead |
I haven't looked at the tables for Buells at all, but i am wondering if a LC-1 could be made to work with modified tables to allow for different accurate afv values. | ||
| Justa4banger |
The O2 sensors will make adjustments if possible and IF the parameters are still within the level of adjust for the ECM.. I can see, and have seen on other EFI setups, where just a K&N and a slip on could throw the system out of whack enough to be out side of the happy zone... From there it won't matter what the O2 sensor reads, the ECM is only programmed to compensate for X amount of fuel, once your past that limit , you run lean. As for using a LC1, LM1 basically any WIDEBAND O2 sensor on this bike, it would be helpful to have it installed, and datalog normal day to day driving. from there you can use a tuner to compensate where the bike is running lean/rich etc.... thats how you would use a wideband O2. Just adding a WBO2 and having it hooked up to Simulate the narrowband O2 will do nothing. If the ECM is only able to add +/- 5 (of whatever value) and the O2 sensor is still lean and basically is requiring MORE than 5, well the ECM will not compensate any more.. I agree even these cheap narrownband O2 sensors have a purpose and can make SMALL changes to compensate for a dirty air filter. How ever if you just turned them off and setup the tune based on datalogging day to day driving with a WBO2, the bike will run just fine and still get acceptable fuel economy... Also remember that more power means more fuel used, and unless you had crazy discipline to just cruise for a full tank of gas, it would be difficult to maintain factory fuel economy and add the power we are seeing from tuning and mods. | ||
| Pash |
LC-1 output doesn't have enough current to drive the Buell O2 sensor inputs, it can be used but the output will be erroneous. A line amp will help. What people are forgetting is that if you want power, you open the throttle. At part throttle you want MPG (stoich or leaner) and smooth running. | ||
| Justa4banger |
Ummm the narrow band O2 sensors are only 0-1 volt..... Either way a aftermarket wideband doesn't do anything to fool the computer, you have to change the tables themselves.. and Propera/f ratio has nothing to do with throttle position or driving habits... either the tune is on it, or its not... Adding a K&N leans the bike out and i seriously doubt any amount of driving will help the ECM learn to compensate.... even if it does compensate, i REALLY doubt the ECM has enough room to compensate.. | ||
| Petebueller |
Was the AF measured by sniffing the muffler or sniffing the headers? | ||
| Moosestang |
Ummm the narrow band O2 sensors are only 0-1 volt..... Either way a aftermarket wideband doesn't do anything to fool the computer, you have to change the tables themselves.. Where have you been? LC-1's have been used on the xb's to fool the computer into thinking it's at stoich. You can program it to output 14.7, when the A/F ratio is whatever you want it to be. That won't help at WOT, but at cruise or part throttle, when the ecm is watch o2 readings, it will. | ||
| Easyrider |
Pash, In all cases, You need a dyno first. When you have a dyno you can correct the fuel tables and the timing tables (when you know what you do). When you do this correct, You DON'T need a O2 sensor. You only need a 02 sensor, if you are NOT able to make a good fuelmap. Or you dont want to do it without (-: | ||
| Easyrider |
Peterbueller In the headers, look here:  | ||
| Petebueller |
Thanks Easyrider I'm not familiar with that style of output so it may be a silly question, but what is the significance of the solid and dotted lines. The only thing I could think of was that the solid lines were without the narrow band O2 sensing. | ||
| Pash |
Pash, In all cases, You need a dyno first. When you have a dyno you can correct the fuel tables and the timing tables (when you know what you do). When you do this correct, You DON'T need a O2 sensor. You only need a 02 sensor, if you are NOT able to make a good fuelmap. Or you dont want to do it without (-: Hi Dris As we discussed in Bethune, we will have to agree to disagree on how to make a good map. Cheers for now and wishing you a merry Christmas} | ||
| Justa4banger |
Moosetang..... I understand what you are saying... SO my question is what do you do when the bandaid you used doesn't quite get the job done? In any EFI system the O2 sensors can only change 15-20%.. maybe this Buell setup has more room to adjust, but i doubt it... So when your outside the parameters of the tables that read the O2 sensors ...then what? Even then your still running lean for WOT use... Proper tuning is needed... Like i mentioned before.. if these EFI had a MAF sensor, all these little exhaust and air filter changes would be compensated for, on a Speed density system it just won't work. (Changes will work, but they are not close to being optimal) Any change in VE will cause the ECM's calculated guess to screw up... maybe not that bad, or maybe really bad... it just depends.. | ||
| Easyrider |
Pash, Merry X-mas to you too... | ||
| Easyrider |
Petebueller, The hoses are for creating a vacuum, for measurment purpose only, at the end there is a pressure regulator.. | ||
| Colintornado |
ref Petebueller, what is the significance of the solid and dotted lines.on the dyno graph ?? |
