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Ratgin
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 01:31 pm: | 
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"BUT if buell was selling 30k bikes a year and not the poor 12K per year the did would that have changed things? I don't know and nether do you!
I think its been explained fairly clearly Buell sales had nothing to do with HD closing Buell.
"Buell revenue was $134.9 million in 2008 and $59.4 million in 2009 year-to-date. Capital expenditures related to Buell were $6.6 million in 2008 and $3.8 million September year-to-date."
HD is in big trouble and is fighting to keep HD afloat. To get them through till the end of the recession they slashed all but the core production even ceasing production on the sportster line which was how they were going to draw in the under 35 crowd.
But again, for clarity i pasted a few quotes for you.
Olin says, "On a year-to-date basis, [Harley-Davidson Financial Services] has incurred $110.8 million loss...HDFS continues to be adversely impacted by the current economic environment."
If the economy goes down or remains stagnant, it may find itself unable to repay that $1.9 billion and be forced to seek protection from its creditors.
AKA Harley borrowed approx 1 billion from Buffett at 15% and 900 million from the Fed at 1.2% then in turn handed out millions in loans at 2%. Recession hits, people default, sales plummet and now in about year HD has to repay the 1.9 billion.
From HD revenue statement
Through nine months, Harley-Davidson, Inc. reported net income of $163.6 million, down 71.6 percent
its gonna be tough repaying a 1.9 BILLION loan when you only make 163 million in 9 months. |
P_squared
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 01:47 pm: |
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...because at some point you just need to admit you/we were all wrong
In what respect? What's wrong in believing in a company doing things their way instead of the cookie cutter way & having it proven on the track as being a right answer?
Step back and really think HARD for a minute. The demise of Buell was not due to 1 model's performance in sales. To say it was, after repeatedly being given more information that does not support that belief shows me someone who is trying to defend their opinion/belief beyond normal reason.
Again, you admit you were initially turned off of the bike for various reasons, including the looks. You also admit that if circumstances were different, you would have never ridden it, which would have been your self admitted loss. So, trying to make sense of your points and your opinions expressed herein, you believe that the demise of Buell is due to 1 model in their lineup, the 1125R. You believe it failed due to looks. Following that line of thought, the bike would have sold better if it only looked more "normal" in either a Japanese or Ducati way.
That's a fine theory to play with. Unfortunately, it's wrong. Buell was paying their own way, doing as well as, if not better than their competitors in their segement (profit/loss margins, etc.). HDI made a decision to shut them down in order to focus solely on HD products in light of their current financial condition. The only way Buell could have changed that outcome was if they were building & selling all of their bikes at a factor of 100+. There’s no realistic way that a single model introduced to the world in late ’07 could have that kind of impact on enough riders to support that explosion of growth in a company. That's an unrealistic expectation based upon the size, scope & direction of Buell at the time this decision was made. They built up & expanded as their market allowed them, not before the market was there.
It’s an admittedly tough road when your business decision challenges the “norm.” It’s tough to convert riders with preconceived notions of what a bike “should be” in form & function until you can put their butts on a seat. It’s tough to get the spec sheet racer crowd through the doors of an HD dealership to even look at that seat. In spite of all that, Buell was actually doing good, just not good enough to satisfy the HDI bean counters.
I’m glad you were able to enjoy your bike & your #1 plate. I hope it causes you to really think & challenge your preconceived notions next time you look at a motorcycle, instead of looking for it to be a “normal” cookie cutter that doesn’t push the boundaries of what really works for a rider. |
Amrra12
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 02:22 pm: |
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WOW HOW can you guys take what I said, hell what anyone says and spin it so far out of context is beyond me man!!
AND for the 6th time that I have said it!........wait for it.......
I do in no way believe the 1125R was the down fall of Buell I do believe it was PART <----get that not whole but part.... of the reason buell failed as a whole! for some time Buell has not heard what the consumers wanted, and that was, a full fairing bike with a good motor and not the POS push rod 1920's tech they have! this was there chance to go BIG but sadly we got 1\2 of what we wanted! {{{{ please get the words consumers and customers clearly defined in you head}}}}} i.e a consumer is one who may buy and customer is one who has bought..... I had the Xb it handled great but a moped could pass it in a straight line so i'm not speaking out of turn! BUT as it turns out IMO buell owners are no different then HD owners as they will be happy with the same old shit that pucks out the old assembly line in Detroit as long as it has the right badging on it! |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 02:39 pm: |
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Yes, my friends are not motorcycle true enthuseists but they do know what a Yamaha, Suzuki, and Honda look like from a far
So you are saying your friends can tell the difference between cookie cutter Japanese bikes, but not recognize a Buell? C'mon. Get real. |
P_squared
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 02:57 pm: |
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Thad, I've been trying to have a civilized conversation with you. I'd appreciate it if you would return the favor.
I'll accept that you believe the 1125R is "part" of the reason for Buell's demise. I will disagree with that assessment for the reasons already stated.
A smart man learns how to crawl before they walk. How to walk before they run.
Erik's a smart man and just started BMC walking from crawling.
Some folks expected him to be running a sprint, not understanding the constraints placed upon him by HDI (Launch dates, price points, sales goals, etc., etc.).
…consumers wanted, and that was, a full fairing bike with a good motor and not the POS push rod 1920's tech they have!
Unless you have the market research to back that statement up with, it's a theory/opinion, not a fact.
The 1125R had the motor everyone says they wanted. As for the full fairing, they were available via the aftermarket, so I'm not completely buying that as a definitive reason. Good dealers were able to sell them & move their inventory pretty well, even in these trying economic times, so I find it hard to lay the blame at the feet of BMC or the good dealers. What does that leave?
Again, spend some time thinking about your own biases & preconceived notions of what is/isn’t “good” for a bike. Not just on the track, but on the street as well. Put yourself in Erik’s shoes for a minute & realize he was serious when he said he builds STREET bikes, not race bikes, then ask yourself why that is important to what BMC was doing? |
Boltrider
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 02:58 pm: |
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quote:Okay 1st this site needs a way to "Quote" people sooo
You mean like this? |
Amrra12
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 03:14 pm: |
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P-
As I think we all know I’m not a street rider "per say," all though I do ride street but my attention is track based, as for the stats to back up what I’ve said about the faring and motor just pic up any mag of the last 10 years and read a Buell review! and as for the crawl before you walk...Buell has had 26 years to stand and run!
Now Please don't get me wrong I freaking love my 1125R! and everyone of my friends that I have let ride it has said and I "" WOW if they make one that looked like you bike Thad I would buy it! so as they say the proof is in the pudding! |
P_squared
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 03:29 pm: |
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Meh. If you're not willing to even consider a viewpoint alternative/counter to your own, what use is there in me stating it?
Have you read & studied that 26 years before you made that statement?
I agree the looks of the bike are controversial. No arguement from me about it. But at the end of the day, it's an excuse. The 999 didn't kill Ducati, did it? |
Chopped_burban
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 03:45 pm: |
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everyone of my friends that I have let ride it has said and I "" WOW if they make one that looked like you bike Thad I would buy it!
I think you're exaggerating like when you said, "I had the Xb it handled great but a moped could pass it in a straight line"
But I actually have a point which is this. From the pictures, that bike is not street legal so every friend you let ride it was probably at a race track and probably a racer. 99%+ of "consumers" as you like to call them are not racers. If you want proof of that number, divide the number of bike racers in the world, hell, AMA race licenses if you like, versus number of bikes sold by all manufacturers. You, one individual, are stating your opinion as fact. Other people have provided documentation/sources to the contrary of your original stated opinion. You know, those three things you mentioned, full fairing, styling and chain drive. Buell bit the bullet because of corporate conditions which you have later agreed to. Why are you so hell bent on calling us lemmings? If that's your opinion and you don't like us, and think you are so much better and clear minded than us, don't hang out with us. We won't care. |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 04:00 pm: |
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I've never seen so many exclamation points in my life!
This thread is like a car accident - I can't help but watch.
the XB, the worlds best handling bike.
Have you ridden an 1125? Because I've owned both and the 1125 outhandles my XB. |
Amrra12
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 04:16 pm: |
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p-
My view point is totally up for reconsideration! As is I hope any 1/2 intelligent mans view points!
Chopped-
If there is one thing I don't do that is lie, and you don't know me so you just going to have to take my word on that! Yes most of them are racers but a hand full of them don’t race! But I will tell you this, racers don't care how a bike looks… it a race bike it’s going to crash! And the only reason to full fairing a bike is billboard space for sponsors! I won my 1st few races, and ran fast times with out the fairings on! So drag is not much of a factor thease days advertising is!
(Message edited by AMRRA#12 on October 20, 2009) |
Bcrawf68
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 08:15 pm: |
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I love your statement Xl1200R,
"This thread is like a car accident - I can't help but watch."
Me too. Ok, maybe, here's my 2 cents. I like the way my early 08R handles. Nit: fork springs are a little too stiff.
The bike ran hot and stumbled out of the gate. Sure, they fixed it, but lost HP...
I didn't mind the price I paid (11K). It would have been nice if the level of support the bike received wasn't compared to Japanese and Euro bikes. That is, the lack of support on some issues (FI and no update kits) was compared to BMW, Ducati, etc. I wouldn't (didn't) mind paying for updated fuel injectors if they weren't twice the going rate ($128 ea).
Why did I have to buy aftermarket S/W to fix the loss of HP. If the bike came from the factory making 135+HP (which it's capable of), I think maybe it would have sold better. Review sites surely would have been more enamored with the bike. The 09CR runs better and the consensus on the site seems to be that the FI the 09 uses is better calibrated than the 08.
Any new bike represents a risk for manufacturers. Tooling, marketing, hiring and other costs make this a high-stakes game. I doubt Buell will be able to go it alone going forward without a deep-pockets investor who is willing to wait for returns.
Eriks patents are (mostly) his, : google: "Results 1 - 10 of about 156 from freepatentsonline.com for erik buell " So, when he walks, so does the technology.
I really like my bike, have no plans to dump it. I wanted a Buell for a long time and this is what I waited for. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 08:33 pm: |
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Nit: fork springs are a little too stiff.
Pre July 7 2008 production springs are too stiff. |
Ponti1
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 12:17 am: |
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I thought it was only early '08 rear shock springs that were too stiff? Did they soften the forks as well in later models?
And, no, I do not feel bad about this hijack.
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Dirty_john
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 02:19 am: |
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I will never part with my 09 1125R, can't afford to now that the remaining bikes are being sold off cheap, but I bought the bike because it ticked all the right boxes, it still does - roll on next summer, its getting wet and cold over here in the uk and I've got dry weather tyres on |
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