| Author | Message | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
     Avc8130 |
So I think it is time to start playing with the suspension settings. I have a very early 08 and I have it set to the settings in the manual. Here are some symptoms of what I experience: 1. Wallowing in turns. 2. Requires consistent bar effort to hold a line. 3. Rear seems to pogo stick a bit. 4. Wallows down the highway a bit. Suggestions? ac | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Geforce |
Did you use the settings in the paper manual that came with the bike? Or the updated ones on Buell Owners Section? If so, use those... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Avc8130 |
Paper manual. Need to find the updated ones apparently...searching. ac | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Avc8130 |
Ok, preliminary search results show that the paper manual settings apply to pre July 7, 2008 bikes. This is where mine falls. ac | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Clarkjw |
How much do you weigh with gear? Is tire pressure proper? If you're 200lbs with gear, here are my settings. I'm reasonably fast and push the front and rear equally. The ride height is way off and you should keep the rear ride hight as high as possible. Rear: PL 1 CD 21 RD factory or start at three turns and adjust to feel Front PL: 7.75/8 CD: Factory, maybe a bit softer RD: Factory When I say factory, use the ones online. They are updated. (Message edited by clarkjw on September 03, 2009) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Avc8130 |
I am confused, why would I want updated suspension settings when I have outdated springs? I have a VERY early 08, so I certainly have the original spring rates that would go with the printed manual, no? ac | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Clarkjw |
So do I. Dec 07 build. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Avc8130 |
What sag were you shooting for? I think that would be the easy way to determine which factory settings are more accurate. ac | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Eaton_corners |
If you are willing to try an amateurs settings, I am around 225lbs with leathers and small tailbag. Front: preload-6.5,compression-1.75,rebound1.5 Rear: preload-4, compression-19, rebound-2.625 These work very well for me on the STREET. To be honest, the settings in the owners manual were very good. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Slimdave |
guys try lowering the tubes to tripleclamp level or 4mm lower for more trail. you should setup with 28mm/30mm sag. Check tire pressure, corsa 3's 27 cold/ 35 hot. Track day increase preload 1 turn. You may want to use heavyer springs 1.00. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Metalrabbit |
I noticed my '09 R was acting just like you listed "ac" when the tires got wore down. I haven't put new ones on yet but it sure seems to be acting unruly lately. Can this be true or am I lost again? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Avc8130 |
I just swapped tires about 2k miles ago with some Pilot Road 2s. The difference between the old and worn tires and these was amazing. ac | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Amrra12 |
I see all the post about use the Buell settings! are you kidding me? these are cookie cutter setting that are not even a good base line for an average rider! You need to adjust your suspension to fit YOUR style! Everyone style is different! #1 set your sag you want 45mm front from full uncompressed and 40 MM rear from full uncompressed! 35mm 30mm race I need to know your weight, what tires your running do you have a pic of your tire? {{this will help me with setup}} Possible reasons for you troubles 1. Wallowing in turns. rebound too loose 2. Requires consistent bar effort to hold a line . Front too high 3. Rear seems to pogo stick a bit. rebound too loose compression as well 4. Wallows down the highway a bit . Same as above (Message edited by AMRRA#12 on September 04, 2009) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Avc8130 |
AMrra, Thank you SO much for understanding what I am looking for. I weigh 225. Tires are Michelin Pilot Road 2. I can snap some pics of them tomorrow once the sun is back out. What specifically are you looking for (so I know what angles to take)? ac | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| R2s |
You are correct about the baseline set up in the manual that came with your early 08. I tried the settings in the shop Manuel but they were to stiff for an early 08 like ours. they changed to a softer spring rate mid 08. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Clarkjw |
Blake you're an idiot. Read what Ohlins has to say. Please ban me. Bye! (Message edited by clarkjw on September 05, 2009) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Avc8130 |
Clark, Wow, I have never heard of using compression to set sag. I always thought that was the job of preload? ac | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Amrra12 |
no offense but I talked to Higbee he does not set up his bike his tuner does! and i'm not sure what you mean about "Max out fork and shock rebound (turns counter clock) Minimize fork and shock compression (clockwise turns) Sit on bike. It should be very soft and bouncy. NEXT... Adjust front fork compression stiffer (counter clock) until you reach 35mm sag. Adjust rear compression stiffer (counter clock) to sag of 25mm" you never use comp or rebound to set sag! i'm totally confused Shawn told you this? ....he must hate you HAHA it dangerously wrong! and no offense but your whole post is garbage and should be deleted before some hurts them self! {i'm not trying to be a dick but man your so far off it's scary" (Message edited by AMRRA#12 on September 05, 2009) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Andros |
Before this goes into a flame war....Can someone KNOWLEDGEABLE please chime in a ONCE and for ALL tell us how to set up the bike right? Step by step. Not just someone that read the manual (i did this too and the bike still runs like goo). Someone that can set up our bike PROPERLY for hard street use. PLEASE?? Step by step cause apparently we're idiots =) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Avc8130 |
Amrra seems to know what he is talking about...and if I am not mistaken he just won a championship on an 1125r so he must be doing something right! How about it? Think you could jot down some setup instructions for us mortals? ac | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Andros |
Yeah man. Amrra12 help the gimps out here... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Amrra12 |
Here is something I did for a guy a few months ago on setting sag! sag is THE MOST important thing you can do! i like to base line my comp and rebound before I adj sag{{{ set them both right in the middle}}} I did not go into sticktion #'s and how to adjust for that... if you want to know I can give a description of how to do so. SAG is the most important thing you can do to improve your bike handling!!!! for all this you will need at least 1, better with 2, friends to help you! first you need to get your front tire off the ground I use a "triple tree stand", if you don't have one you can use the kick stand trick! just put your bike on the kick stand and pull it over so the front is in the air with the rear tire on the ground {sounds hard but it's easy!!} you want to gently pull the tire down while it's in the air, you want you suspension FULLY extended!! http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/1281/p1040164q. jpg next I use tape to hold the "soft tape" in place! this will ensure your measuring from the same point every time! http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/1917/p1040174b. jpg now measure to the bottom of the fork tube uncompressed as you can see I'm at 220 mm uncompressed {this # will very depending on were you tape your "soft tape at wright that # down in a note book. take your bike off the stand, now with you on the bike you want the tape to read 180mm {or -40mm from your fully extended #} http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8879/p1040175d. jpg now do the rear: note in the pic's it's on the rear stand that because I had no one to hold the bike as I took the pic's you can use the kick stand trick to get the rear in the air as well, but this time just push the front tire to the ground as you pull the bike onto the kick stand! and have a friends measure the bike uncompressed! but 1st....... pick a point and tape your "soft tape" on to the tail directly above the axle http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/7608/p1040168.j pg use a fixed point on the swing arm! I like to use the top of the inside of the axle! this measurement should be done Uncompressed {back tire hanging under it's own weight} http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/3640/p1040170.j pg so you can see {if my back tire would have been in the air not on the stand my # let's say would be} 660mm now with you on the bike that # should read 625mm REMEMBER all measurements are from fully extended or "uncompressed' and then with you on the bike in a natural riding position! So front you want 40mm from full extended **street** 35mm track rear 35mm from fully extended **street** 30mm track http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/4139/p1040169.j pg NOTE: Suspension work should only be done by a professional this is for demonstration purpossess only use at your own risk! (Message edited by AMRRA#12 on September 05, 2009) (Message edited by blake on September 05, 2009) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Rsh |
This was written by Max McAllister of Traxxion Dynamics. This should help with understanding how suspension should perform BASELINE SETUP: We will use a known working baseline to set up your chassis. Then the next time you practice, you will be able to analyze how it works and fine tune it to work even better. All suspension adjustments made by pushing or bouncing on the bike should be made with the bike off the stands, on level ground, and with the bike in neutral. Rear Shock....The first and most basic adjustment is to set the sag on the shock. When you make these measurements, accuracy is important. If at all possible, use a metric tape measure with millimeter increments. If you use an S.A.E. tape, then measure to the sixteenth of an inch (1" = 25.4mm). You need to pick two fixed points on the rear of your bike for this. One on the rear of the swingarm (like a stand spool or the axle), and one on the sub frame (like one of the bolts that holds the rear passenger pegs on. never use the bodywork since it can sag when the rider gets on). Before you can measure the sag, you must first find the fully extended measurement between your two points. Have a friend help you by pulling up on the footpegs to fully extend the rear suspension. Your bike may be fully extended already. If it is, this is not a problem. Record the distance at "full extension" on your log sheet. Now have your friend balance the bike for you and push down on the seat several times to settle the suspension. Now measure and record the distance between your two points again. This is your static sag. There should definitely be a little static sag on the rear shock. Most expert race bikes have 5-10mm static sag. Your next measurement is rider sag. Have a friend stand at the front of your bike and balance it by the ends of the handlebars. Sit on the bike like you would ride it and bounce down on it three times to settle the suspension. Now have another friend measure between your two points for you and log the measurement in the log. This is your rider sag. Next you need to subtract your rider sag measurement from your full extension measurement. This is your rear sag measurement. You should have 30mm of sag. This is your baseline setting and can be adjusted after your test ride. If your spring tops out the bike, you will need a stiffer spring. Now we need to adjust the dampening. The object is to get the suspension to respond as quickly as possible to irregularities in the pavement. Dampening is required to control the movement of the wheel and the spring. Set your rebound dampening adjuster first. It is difficult to explain how it should appear in words, but as you push on the seat, it should return quickly, but not instantaneously. It should take approximately one second for it to return to the top from a hard push. You should be able to watch the seat rise. If it just pops back up right away, you need to add rebound. If it drags up slowly, loosen it up. If you have a compression adjuster, sit it up in the middle. You can determine how to adjust it after your initial test ride, too hard loosen it up, and to soft add. Front Forks....Start here by setting the sag on the fork the same way you did on the shock. First you need a fully extended measurement. Only way to get consistency is to have two guys pick up on the handlebars until the front wheel leaves the ground slightly. Measure the exposed area of the fork slider. On a conventional fork, this will be from the bottom of the lower triple tree to the top of the dust seal on the slider. For an inverted fork, this will be from the dust seal down to the top edge of the aluminum axle clamp. Record this measurement on your log sheet. Push down on the fork hard three times, to settle the suspension. Now measure the static sag. Finally, get on the bike and push down three more times, while a friend balances the bike. Have your friend with the tape take the final measurement. The measurement you are looking for on the front fork is 35mm. If your spring is of the correct rate, the free sag should be about 65 percent of the rider sag, or about 20mm. The front fork has to have a great deal of free sag so that the front wheel may move down into a hole as well as over a bump. If your fork has too much sag turn the preload adjuster in. Next is the dampening adjustment. The fork needs to move much faster by comparison than the shock. Again, you should be able to watch it rebound, but not as slowly as the shock. Grab the front brake and push down on the front of the bike as hard as you can. Don't release the brake and don't resist the rising action of the fork. Observe the action. You want it to rise back as quickly as possible without topping out and settling back down again. Loosen the rebound until the bike does want to settle back after topping out, and then dial in just enough rebound to make that settling tendency go away. The compression adjuster should be set as softly as possible, but prevent the fork from bottoming over severe bumps or under hard braking. If your forks works properly over bumps, but bottoms under hard braking, you can add more oil, or "raise the level" to help prevent bottoming. This reduces the air cushion you fork has above the oil. Jockey check....quick test method. Have a friend balance the bike while you get on and assume your riding position. Lift up off the seat slightly and bounce down on the bike. It should compress and rebound in a balanced fashion from front to rear evenly. If your bike isn't balanced, it won't work right. Your initial adjustments are only to get to this simple test. If the bike isn't acting balanced, adjust it until it does regardless of the initial adjustments you made. Balance is the single most important facet of chassis setup. A bike that is too soft or too stiff is still easier to go fast on than one that is out of balance. If you bounce lightly, it should act balanced, as well as if you bounce with great force. PERFORMANCE ANALYSIS/DIAL IN Now that you have a good baseline set-up, it's time for a test ride. Ensure that your tires have the correct pressure in them, and head to the track or your testing grounds. In order to make an assessment of your bike's chassis, you need to be conscious of what's going on while you are riding it. Someday when your a racing god, you'll have data acquisition equipment to tell your chassis engineers what to adjust. But until then, you are the only suspension sensor on your motorcycle. This is actually the best way to learn. There are several things you need to analyze as you ride. High speed stability.....this should be self explanatory, and the easiest to analyze. Go fast in a straight line and your bike should never scare you. If it does, you have some adjusting to do. Performance under braking....Is the bike stable? Does it squirm underneath you? Does the front wheel bounce? Does the rear wheel bounce? Does the forks bottom? How does the bike behave trail braking? Performance in the corners....This needs to be analyzed in three segments: Turn in, mid corner, and exit. Be conscious of these things within each of these segments: Overall stability, steering effort, ground clearance, front wheel action, and rear wheel action. Thats a bunch of stuff to think about, especially when you're just trying to circulate and learn to ride. If any of these things are out of whack, they'll usually let you know, consistently, in most turns. Here is an explanation of what to look for. Overall stability....The main thing to look for here is wallowing action. There should not be any. Wallow indicates a need for more spring. Steering effort....Does the bike track well in the corners? Do you have to fight to keep it on the racing/riding line? Are your arms completely worn out after riding/practice? Ground clearance....If you have anything dragging the ground, you have a problem that could result in injury. Some guys think they're cool because they drag stuff around the track/road. These people are a hazard to themselves and others. If you have anything dragging, fix it! Raise your footpegs, bend your pipe in, or whatever it takes. If you lean in hard enough on a bike that's scraping the ground you will lift a tire off the ground, and then you will immediately take its place on the pavement; this is serious business. If you are happy with the way your chassis works, then don't alter your ride height to stop things from dragging. Just get the dragging stuff up and out of the way. Changing ride height alters the bike's handling characteristics. Front wheel action....The wheel should roll smoothly through the corner and inspire confidence. Does the wheel bounce? If it does, you need to pay close attention to the way it bounces. If the wheel is bouncing and you can't really feel it in the bars, then this is a lack of rebound dampening. If the handlebars are jarring you, then you may have too much spring preload or compression dampening. Use rebound dampening carefully. Too much rebound dampening creates a situation where the fork is packing down. This means your forks has collapsed and is not re-extending fast enough. This is a VERY DANGEROUS situation. A fork that has packed down has no suspension travel left. A crash is eminent. You need to speed up your rebound dampening. You may also need a higher fork oil level, or more compression dampening to keep the forks from bottoming. This situation is usually set up by hard braking that compresses the fork followed by trail braking into the turn which never lets the forks recover. Some additional spring may help this too. Rear wheel action....Your rear wheel can exhibit many of the same symptoms as the front wheel. If your bike feels like a pogo stick then this is typically an all around lack of dampening. This condition will also cause a bunch of wheelspin on exit and tear up your tire. Wheelspin also fools riders into believing that they are going fast; that is until some novice on a GS500E goes railing around the outside of them in a turn. Too much rebound will cause the rear wheel to "swim" under the bike side to side under hard straight line braking. This is because the shock is packing up and the rear wheel is hanging in the air instead of returning to the ground to keep you pointed straight. A lack of compression dampening will cause the bike to pogo while under acceleration. This will be a vertical "sawing" motion; vertical relative to the bike even though it is still leaned over. Too much compression dampening will make the bike "buck" or kick you in the butt over sharp bumps. This can also cause excessive wheelspin. The shock should be soft enough to let the bike squat some. This transfer of weight helps give the tire more grip. When you notice a flaw in your suspension, note where it occurred in the turn. Was it as you rolled into the turn, was it in the middle of the turn, or was it as you accelerated out of the turn? This is critical information to help you (and a suspension tuner) decide what the correct changes should be. Chassis geometry....If your bike's chassis is soaking bumps properly, but your bike isn't steering around the track properly, then you need to adjust the "attitude" or "geometry" of your bike. This will affect it all the way around the track. The variables you have to work with are the fork height, and the swingarm angle. Here's what each does. Fork angle....Will increase or decrease your trail. Moving the nose of the bike lower (forks higher in the clamps) will make it steer faster, but will be less stable. Moving the nose of the bike higher (forks lower in the clamps) will require more steering effort, and will increase stability. Most expert riders say this increases "feel" at extreme lean angles. For most novice riders, will find it the easiest way to evaluate this is to ride through a high speed sweeper and evaluate how the bike steers into the turn and notice how much effort it takes to make it steer to the apex of the turn. In other words, "How does it hold a line? If the bike is too low in the front, it will steer dramatically, and try and drive off the inside of the track. It will be unstable all the way through a turn, and sometimes even on the straight-aways. If the bike is too high in the front, it will steer in slowly and require that you pull on the bars to hold it down to get it to the apex. This condition will make it very difficult to steer the bike to the apex. It will fatigue your arms and they will feel tired after riding. Swingarm angle....tunes the way the bike reacts to acceleration. Your motorcycle wants to "squat" under acceleration due to the rearward weight transfer. If the swingarm is too flat, the bike will squat too much, and the bike will sit back and the front will extend like a "chopper". This will make the bike want to "run wide" or run off the edge of the track. The front end will feel light and dance about as you are leaving a turn. The result is that you have to wait to get on the throttle. You should raise the rear of the bike to correct this. If the swingarm angle is too steep, then the bike will not squat enough, and the result will be poor traction. This is "wheelspin" If you can whack the gas, and the wheel spins up, then you need to lower the back of the bike. Here's where it gets more complicated. Changing one end of the bike affects the other. There is a simple way to figure it out. If your problem occurs from steer-in to mid-corner, then change the front. If your problem occurs from mid-corner to the exit, then change the rear. Although there is no way to accurately mathematically describe what happens when you make a change, here is a VERY crude way to think about it. Changing the front ride height has an effect of "5" on the front and an effect of "1" on the rear. Changing the rear has an effect of "5" on the rear, and an effect of "1" on the front. A common example of where riders improperly change their bikes comes when the bike steers in too slowly. Many confused riders and tuners will raise the back of the bike. This makes the nose steeper, and the bike will steer more sharply. But remember, in order to get an effect of "1" on the front of the bike, you have now make an effect of "5" on the rear. Your bike may now turn in better, but you will get less traction, more wheelspin, and more tendency to high-side. This is not what you wanted... The correct change is to lower the nose of the bike. This affects the turn in "5 (front)" and the exit "1 (rear)". Much better!!!! If you have no idea where to start with your geometry, look around the pits or ask a suspension tuner. There is no correct answer or magic formula for what you personally want your bike to do. Your personal style of riding will dictate to you what to do with the bike. You will find that most production bikes are way off of whats is generally "good" Find a range of "good" seems to be for your model of bike and start on the "safe" or "stable" side of the range. Traxxion Dynamics Max McAllister | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Amrra12 |
Max is a great guy and has forgot more about setting up a bike then most know! I have used Traxxion Dynamics stuff on all my race bikes my current 1125R has AK-20 kits and a Penski triple shock as well my 2009 Kawi ZX10R | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Amrra12 |
The Quick and dirty Compression is how fast or slow the bike will compress: you want it on the stiff side with out being harsh Rebound is ..well this is a harder question to answer, think of it like this: you tire is a basket ball your arm is the suspension, as you hit the bump the tire lifts off the ground{ Now this is not a good thing you have no traction as long as your tire is in the air} you want to get the tire back to the pavement as fast as you can WITH OUT IT bouncing back up or dribbling rebound is how you do that! The rebound is your arm { in the basket ball scenario} but you want your arm to push the ball back to the ground fast! But slow enough it will not try to bounce back up again! Most people have there rebound TOO TIGHT OR SLOW! This will cause you suspension to pack in and it will stop working, as if you arm just freezes ½ way as your pushing the basket ball back to the ground! Then the only option your bike has is to fall to meet the ground {again NOT GOOD!} Rebound is key to traction! (Message edited by AMRRA#12 on September 05, 2009) (Message edited by AMRRA#12 on September 05, 2009) (Message edited by AMRRA#12 on September 05, 2009) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Clarkjw |
Post up your weight and settings please. Ohlins (used on every GP bike in the paddock) has this to say: http://www.ohlins.com/Checkpoint-Ohlins/Setting-Up -Your-Bike/Underrubrik_1/ LOL at someone being hurt with my settings! Edit just for our race winner  When you adjust the spring preload, you move the spring seat. This will lower or raise the ride height. Compression controls how easy the shock absorber compresses when you hit a bump. Rebound damping controls how fast the shock absorber returns to its normal position after being compressed. Good job genius. Ohlins contradicts what you assert. GL at your next race. I'm going to chuckwala for the grand opening. $100 I set a better lap time. (Message edited by clarkjw on September 05, 2009) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Clark, Your detailed instructions in your earlier post were exactly wrong. You told the man to set sag using damping adjustments, which is impossible to do as damping has zero effect on sag. By your bewilderingly wrong advise, it looks like you were intending to sabotage the man. Please don't ever again advise on suspension adjustments here until you learn what the difference between damping and preload are and which way to turn the adjusters to achieve the desired effect. Your detailed advice would be hard pressed to be more wrong. You owe everyone who read your frighteningly incorrect information a big apology. I've edited your post to show the errors and added the basic suspension tuning information from Buell. It is very accurate and helpful, actual settings aside. I repeat the main troubleshooting portion here...
(Message edited by blake on September 05, 2009) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Amrra12 |
WOW Clarkjw can we say "psycho much?" I don't care if you think your faster then me, or truly if you are faster then them me! this was not meant to be a pissing contest But oK you said " Sag comes from compression levels" no it comes from spring tension/rate! but anyways cool Im glad your so fast maybe one bay you will get free race bikes! Have you seen mine? it's nice! :> | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Chadhargis |
Everything has pretty much already been said, but here's a good website that covers much of the same information in a different way: http://www.gostar-racing.com/information/motorcycl e_suspension_set-up.htm#What%20is%20%93suspension% 94%20all%20about | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Concerning adjustments... *Front spring preload is set by loosening adjuster counterclockwise until it stops at minimum, then counting the number of turns in to get to the desired setting. |
