| Author | Message | ||
     Duggram |
I noticed that the new 1198 Ducati has a bore and stroke of 106 mm X 67.9 mm. The 1125R is 103.00 mm x 67.50 mm. So how much difference could be realized with a 3 mm bore increase for the 1125? Ducati claims 170 hp @ 9750, and 97 ft lbs @ 8000. Could ~70cc make that much difference? | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Keywords--"Ducati claims" | ||
| Sheridan_bueller |
They had to do something...stock 1125R's were kickin their arses! JJ | ||
| Teddagreek |
It's a two way street as far as claims... Its going to be really interesting with buell finally running in the big races... I'd really love to see buell in World Superbike... | ||
| Buellborn |
Fresnobuell Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 10:31 pm: Keywords--"Ducati claims"  | ||
| Ponti1 |
LOL...Can we get something in the background of that pic to see just HOW big the can of worms is? | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Any manufacturer exaggerates, let's be honest. IMO, Ducati tunes for top end for it's track focus and Buell looks at the entire power curve, which may hurt peak power numbers in the end. As it has been pointed out MANY times here, you don't ride a spec sheet and it's unfortunate that so many people base a buying decision on said spec sheet. | ||
| Mtmansl |
I know that a 1098 with a full exhaust along with the upgraded ecm or nemesis is putting out 150 hp to the wheel and would expect the 1198 to beat that by about 10 hp. The 1125r does have a lot of potential, but they have not been "kicking Ducati's arse" as of yet on the track. Where did you get that information from? Really pulling for the 1125r to kick some arse in Daytona Sportbike this year! Matthew (Message edited by mtmansl on December 26, 2008) (Message edited by mtmansl on December 26, 2008) | ||
| Ponti1 |
Fresno, You know what the best thing is? Everyone here should be in the elite group of those that didn't buy for spec sheet alone...I just love that about Buell enthusiasts. With all our differences, it makes clear up-front that the person you are dealing with on BadWeb likely has a truer perception of what's important in a motorcycle. | ||
| M1combat |
Uhhhh, well look at the race results Mtmansl... You might try the racing section here on the BadWeb. It'll open your eyes. | ||
| Mtmansl |
M1, I am not knocking the bike, will be upgrading to the 1125r from my RC51. The 1125r, once developed will be a winner for sure. For this year however, facts are facts and in Heavy Twins, the 1098 won just about every championship out there; CMRA, AFM, ASRA ect... My point was that it has not been getting it's ass kicked. Matthew | ||
| Buellborn |
Please lets not belittle or chase off prospective buyers because they are pragmatic. Some enthusiasts overstatements come off like a used car salesman and not trustworthy when slightly exaggerated or biased with omissions and absence fairness and balance. Rest comfortably in the true facts. Reality is this is a great bike very competitive and keeps getting better. The best running bike Buell has ever built, but not necessarily the worlds greatest. | ||
| Diablo1 |
I expect a rear wheel dyno will show the Duc 1198 to have about 30-35 more HP than the Buell. It's not just the size of the pistons, but all those other differences in the motor design. | ||
| Ducxl |
but all those other differences in the motor design. THings like the absence of those balance shaft thingys(90 degrees=perfect balance) and also the absence of valve springs. Increasing bore by itself gives little in the way of real power.When i considered increasing my Bore by the maximum(2mm) it was only like a 4% increase in displacement. Increasing Compression ratio gives artificial displacement and the biggest bang for the buck.I'd increase bore now only if i "Efffed" up the bore/pistons. I love engine tech | ||
| Blake |
"The 1125r does have a lot of potential, but they have not been "kicking Ducati's arse" as of yet on the track. Where did you get that information from?" I agree that would be over-exuberant characterization. However, for its first year out of the box the 1125R has done exceptionally well on the track in the limited exposure it's seen. It's won a number of highly competitive races, yes running head to head against some of Ducati's best. Check the racing section. You may be surprised. Diablo, 30-35 HP? How do you get that figure? Are you talking about a $30K+ 1198R version or the standard 1198? With the homologated "R" race version, I can agree. For the standard 1198, I don't see it. Ducati claims 170 HP, and judging from history that is most likely for their race tuned "R" version, versus the current Buell 146 HP, which amounts to just 24 HP difference. For the standard 1198, I don't see that even with Ducati's focus on peak HP, historic dyno test numbers by impartial sources don't bear out such a wide disparity. | ||
| Blake |
In the realm of 150 HP+, the peak HP becomes less and less important. Recall Steve Crevier's podium finish in Canadian Superbike over a slough of Japan Inc IL4 superbikes having 30+ HP better peak performance. Allowing better drive out of the corners is where the 1125R with its lighter, pavement-hugging ZTL-II front wheel/brake assembly is able to excel. Without control, more power is nothing but a detriment. | ||
| Blake |
But to the topical question. All else being equal, meaning bigger valves and such to take advantage of the bigger bore, then going from 103mm to 106mm would allow around (106/103)2 = 1.059 times more power. So for the 1125R, the peak HP would increase from 146 BHP to around 155 BHP. | ||
| Blake |
Adjust the cams for racing performance (for higher engine speeds) and raise the rev limit and 200+ RWHP is achievable. The stock engine appears to be very much understressed. Word is that in racing form at this early stage it is already pushing near 180 HP. | ||
| Stormy |
There is much more to peak horsepower than displacement. The difference between 1125 and 1198 is tiny compared to the difference in cam timing numbers. The Ducati is tuned to run with I4s in WSBK as the homogolation special which limit cam numbers changing in relation to production cams. The Buell was tuned to produce a very straight, flat torque curve. This by its nature trades off top end power, all other factors being equal. The Buell could be built to produce big peak hp numbers, and many soon will, but there will be tradeoffs. There is also valve size, tract length, TB size, Injector location, crankcase pressure, etc. Balancers have very little effect on hp other than to let an otherwise self destructive motor rev higher and thus make more power (while allowing the chassis to be lighter, rider comfort, etc. in other words a good thing) | ||
| Diablo1 |
Ducati claims 170 HP, and judging from history that is most likely for their race tuned "R" version, versus the current Buell 146 HP, which amounts to just 24 HP difference. For the standard 1198, I don't see that even with Ducati's focus on peak HP, historic dyno test numbers by impartial sources don't bear out such a wide disparity. They claim 170HP for the standard 1198, not the "R". http://www.motorcycledaily.com/01december08_2009du cati1198s_p2.htm But claims are just claims. I'll stick by my prediction of rear wheel HP differences. The 1198 is in a much higher state of tune than the 1125. I'd like to see what it takes to make 180HP for a race-tuned 1125. Making 180HP with some reliability won't be easy.....or someone would have done it by now.} | ||
| Ponti1 |
They claim 170HP for the standard 1198, not the "R". I thought the difference between 1098S and 1098R was just the addition of more trick components (Ohlins suspension, etc.)? Thought the HP and TQ ratings are the same...Is that not so? Looks like the 1098R is claiming 180HP for the 2009 model. Not sure what the 2008 1098S had claimed. http://www.ducati.com/en/bikes/my2009/popup_tech_s pec.jhtml?modelName=SBK1098R-09&content=Bikes&sub_ content=MY2009;%20Superbike;%20SBK1098R-09 <snip> Power: 180hp - 132.4kw @ 9750rpm Torque: 99.1lb-ft 134Nm @ 7750rpm </snip> | ||
| Fresnobuell |
The base 1098 and the 1098S are the same motor, with the S having trick suspension parts. The 1098R has tons of engine upgrades. | ||
| Spectrum |
Stock 08 1098 & 1098S claimed 160hp Power* 119.3 kw - 160 hp @ 9750rpm Torque* 90.4 lb-ft - 12.5 kgm @ 8000rpm http://www.ducati.com/en/bikes/my2008/ModelPage.jh tml?family=Superbike&model=SBK1098-08 The 08 & 09 1098R claims were both 180HP with the 09 1198 & 1198S at 170hp. Money can't buy you love but it can buy you horse power!  (Message edited by spectrum on December 26, 2008) | ||
| Diablo1 |
The 1098R is the homologation racing special - 1198cc motor with the addition of lots of titanium engine parts. The 1098R is the $40K bike. They also make two "lesser" models - the 1198 and the 1198S. The "S" has Ohlins suspension and forged wheels - $16.5K and $21K. | ||
| Ponti1 |
So, it takes $40,000 to get a Ducati to 180HP? I'm assuming that's at the crank? What would it cost to get an extra 34 ponies out of the 1125? Hmmm... | ||
| Slypiranna |
If you got 6k and a stock donor with a release signed, I'm game. Really. | ||
| Xbswede |
What would it cost to get an extra 34 ponies out of the 1125? Hmmm.. Approx. $700 for a shot of nitrous...  | ||
| Teddagreek |
Ducati makes good bikes... lets not  Off the top of my head the 1098 release was December 06 and the 1125 was july 07.. Roughly six months apart, I guess you could say a year if you took delivery in account. Pretty Impressive ducati has released 9 bikes based on or from the original 1098 1098 1098s 848 1098r 1098r Bayliss 1198 1198s 1098 motor in Streetfighter & Streetfighter-S | ||
| Slypiranna |
"What would it cost to get an extra 34 ponies out of the 1125? Hmmm.. Approx. $700 for a shot of nitrous..." That is good Xbswede but I'm talking all motor, didn't know we had the option for power adders!  Of all 1125 tuner's, YOU should know that by now as I KNOW THAT YOU DO!  mm Nice thought tho! Just the same! | ||
| Xbswede |
Yes I know... Hence the funny emocon. |
