| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
"Why are we the owners working to find ways to correct the problem rather than the engineers who designed the bike." Your experience is not shared by the vast majority of Buell 1125R owners. No matter. Are you interested in getting your 1125R fixed or are you interested in criticizing Buell engineers? One tact lends your position credibility. The other belies some other agenda. | ||
| Hayabusa |
I don't know who the dealership talked to at Buell. They went directly to Buell and did not try to work the problem themselves. My dealership is great and they openly admit that when it comes to working on this bike they will always go to the source until they have more experience with the bike. I spoke to Matt when I called Buell (HD- thanks for the update on that Blake). I have switched gas companies from Shell to Sunoco on the outside chance that brands are different. I also think that living in a suburban area in the Northeast may lead to different fuel additives than someone living in a rural area. I love the bike...it is agile, quick, and just a little bit scary...all great characteristics. I am 6'3 and finding a true sportbike that I can comfortably ride on is a blessing. I am not trying to bash Buell for my own personal enjoyment...I want to keep my bike and ride it for a long time. In my mind the most important bond between a bike and its rider is trust...I want to trust the bike to run properly when I am wringing it out and trying to scrape my pegs. Right now I am looking for some assurance from Buell...I felt ok when they told me that it was normal to boil fuel, but the more people I talk to about it the more I realize that it isn't normal. I even know a race mechanic for Team Yamaha and he made a face at me when I told him. He was very surprised that there wasn't heat shielding between the header and the frame...and I agree. | ||
| Zac4mac |
When you call C.S., the folks that answer the phone are H-D employees, that I can believe. They are courteous and knowledgeable enough for me, for a first line of contact. There are a few of them, haven't gotten the same one more than twice myself. When an issue gets escalated, it goes to specific people, "in the know". My rough running issue in Texas went to Matt also, he was on the 1125R release team. I don't know if he's an engineer or a senior tech, doesn't matter to me. He's knowledgeable, courteous and to the point. He's also called ME back a couple of times to make sure the issue was resolved. I think Buell C.S. is on the right track, with only a little room for improvement. Certainly the best, most personal treatment I've been involved with. Zack | ||
| Hayabusa |
I have no complaints about Matt...he was very friendly and seemed genuinely concerned about my happiness with bike. I got the sense that he was only passing the information that he had regarding the boiling fuel. As soon as i started to explain what was going on he beat me to the punch and said that I had boiling fuel and there are lots of 1125's doing this. This is where my disappointment lies...if so many of this have this issue try and develop a fix...or tell us that this is the luck of the draw with the bike and we will have to deal with it. | ||
| Slypiranna |
chevycummins and blake... I had the chance today to measure a virgin 1125R with no prior issues what so ever. The owner just has a concern over the very warm frame exterior and wonders of the liquid interior. I told him to fill the fuel tank prior to bringing to it me prior to my recommendations thereafter. Today, it was...still is, bright and sunny and about 86'F here in St. Petersburg, Florida. He had about a thirty minute ride to get on my side of town. Some stop and go traffic but mostly around 45mph and six blocks, light to light. Out of the sun recordings were done after 5 minutes of shutdown...so the argument of exhaust primary pipe radiation and or coolant temps would not be too relevant as culpret. Lower frame/fuel cell exterior...135'F Mid frame/fuel cell exterior @ rider's knee location...131'F Upper frame/fuel cell exterior approx six inches aft of the steering head...128'F Inner frame/fuel cell interior/rearmost vertical section...142'F The above measurements were done from both sides of the bike, with a known accurate Infrared/laser thermometer gun held at 3', 4' and the recommended 6'...all read within 2'F either way...a total of 18 measurements were recorded. The liquid fuel inside the tank measured 120'F...this reading was taken with a submersed analog thermometer that is designed for automotive air conditioning testing. It's range is 0'F-220'F and again, known accurate. With the above now complete...the same insulating procedures that I used on my personal 11 are scheduled to be done this weekend on this unmodified virgin. Final temp readings/differences will be done and posted here. It should be noted that NO fuel boiling was witnessed...nor excessive pressure experienced upon opening the fuel cap. For those that have excessive issues with boiling, venting and or pressures...take it to the dealer as you MOST LIKELY/MIGHT have a different issue!? | ||
| Blake |
Excellent! Thanks for sharing that info Sly.  "For those that have excessive issues with boiling, venting and or pressures...take it to the dealer as you MOST LIKELY/MIGHT have a different issue!?" Excellent advice as well! I wonder what the infrared absorptance of the frame coating is.  I'm betting not close to zero. | ||
| Blake |
A coating of ultra-low IR absorptive paint may have a significantly beneficial effect. | ||
| Chevycummins |
I'm not going to mess with the dealer any more about the hot gas. They say it is normal and my bike is ok now that the pipe was wrapped. I wrapped the pipe at about 50 miles on the bike and now have 400miles and have not had hot gas or fumes any more. It still seems to get poor fuel economy compared to other brands of bikes but is normal and it runs great. | ||
| Hayabusa |
My fuel only boils when I get stuck in traffic or at low speeds for an extended period of time. This is why the problem can not be easily fixed...it is a conditional problem. Low speeds or stop and go riding generate the condition. I am still hoping that Buell will develop a way to correct the problem, but I am not holding my breath. I will take it back to dealer again for one final attempt...maybe they will wrap my headers for me as a warranty item. Maybe Buell has titanium headers in the works that disipate heat better. Here's to hoping! | ||
| Chevycummins |
Hayabusa, Buell or the dealer would not touch my bike. If they attempt to fix the hot gas then they are admitting that it is a problem. The dealer does not want to be responsible for doing something that Buell does not recommend like wrapping the pipe. I do understand that from a dealer stand point. They don't want to be responsible it wrapping the pipe causes other problems. Good luck and hang in there. Dealing with Buell almost turned into a second full time job and I don't have that much time. | ||
| Rdmwc |
my bike has about 180miles on it and today it was in the low 80's outside. i was in stop and go traffic half of my 5 miles home and my frame was very hot! my leg was getting very warm! when i got home, i didnt think the gas was boiling, i couldnt hear it nor could i smell it. i popped the gas cap off and stuck my ear by it and sure enough.... i heard faint boiling!! you guys that wrapped your headers, did you wrap from the head to the muffler or where exactly? just the rear or both? | ||
| C4bird |
Rdmwc, before going to the trouble of wrapping the header, may try just putting some heat reflectant tape on the inside/bottom of the frame rail, near the rear cylinder head and header. I would get gas boil every time I rode, did this and now haven't had it boil once  | ||
| Hayabusa |
I knew I was in trouble when both the dealer and myself contacted Buell and got the same line..."We know the bike boils fuel at slow speeds and in traffic, this is not a concern;" how can I fault the dealer when the designer admits a problem and doesn't have a solution. My struggles are with buying a 12K bike (Gixxer 1k and Yamaha R1 are going out the door for 11K at my local dealer) only to have to spend money to make it work properly. This won't even be money that can be justified as a performance enhancement...it is correcting a design flaw. Buell has my issue on file and so does my dealer....I would love to know if they are trying to solve this or they will just address it with the next model. Either way I am not happy that I am going to have to pay to fix this myself. | ||
| Ccryder |
Jim: Even though my 1125r does not boil, I can understand your concern. What I can't understand is how you can call this a problem or a design flaw. Just because you don't like the way it is acting, you qualify it as a problem or a design flaw? In this day and age of litigation, if there was a real "issue", BMC would be jumping all over it, like they have done in the past. IIRC, there was one, maybe two shocks that failed and BMC stood right up and warned the Owners. After that that got roasted for not having a solution and replacement parts quickly enough. But that is just IMHO, from an Owner and an Engineer's viewpoint. Time2Work (where is my FMEA when I need it??????? Oh yeah we can no longer use the "F" word, Failure in FMEA) | ||
| Hayabusa |
The bike builds up too much heat in the rear of the engine at slow speeds and the heat transfers to the frame and fuel. I know that certain fuels have a lower boiling point than others and I concede that I am probably getting urban fuels which have more additives given my proximity to both Philly and NY. I am working for a solution, Buell has none and they openly admit that the bike will boil fuel. They have never denied that to me or my dealer. The unfortunate reality is that they probably don't have a solution to the problem. I have to believe that if they could fix the problem they would. Buell seems like an upstanding company...they just made a mistake in the design...hence my claim of a flaw. Nobody is perfect, I am just looking for a solution. Given Buell's inability to help me I am relying on my own personal experience and the fine people who contribute to this forum. Maybe I am frustrated, maybe I am not being fair...but I did pay 12k for this bike. As for now I think I am going with the cool tape. | ||
| Spatten1 |
In this day and age of litigation, if there was a real "issue", BMC would be jumping all over it, like they have done in the past. Firebolt headlamps, for example. | ||
| Ccryder |
No like rear shocks. A shock failure you don't know when it may happen (Not a fun experience, I have that reference from personal experience but, not an OEM shock). A headlight dimming over time can be detected if, you pay attention, even if it creeps up slowly. Anybody else have a soapbox I can trip over? ;+} | ||
| Spatten1 |
shock failure you don't know when it may happen That would be HORRIBLE. Buell did replace my tuber shock. | ||
| Court |
there was one, maybe two shocks that failed and BMC stood right up and warned the Owners. I am unaware of any shocks that EVER failed in use on customer bikes. The story of how Buell recalled the shocks is awesome and fitting testement to how far above and beyond Buell goes. >>>Firebolt headlamps, for example Perfect example. The Feds (who were "agast" at the situation until they did research) and Buell have reacted in nearly identical fashion. | ||
| Ccryder |
My 2000 X-1 had the SRP on it when I purchased it. Shortly there after Buell sent in a replacement shock. The next year I was doing an evaluation for a shock mfg. This was the shock that failed on me one hot, humid KY night! All was well by 2 days later. Time2Work Neil S. | ||
| Sycojomo |
I would like to add that my bike also is boiling the fuel. Shame, shame. On a $12,000 dollar bike? | ||
| Chevycummins |
All I have to say is, to those people with the 1125R that have not had the gas boil... it will soon. | ||
| Krassh |
All I have to say is, to those people with the 1125R that have not had the gas boil... it will soon. Hmmm... maybe. Did a 350 mile ride last Sunday. Got up to 100 degree's in Palm Springs Area, stop and go traffic through town, CT temp got up to 214 degree's and never dropped below 204 in this area for me. 2 Other 1125R's in the group and neither reported any problems with boiling fuel. Also stopped for a gas break in this area with high AT and CT temps, put 2.5 gallons in the bike so it was half full already. So sorry do not know why some are having boiling fuel issues and some are not but to make a blanket statement that "those that have not had fuel boil soon will" is irresponsible. (Message edited by krassh on May 07, 2008) | ||
| Andella |
Anyone have a pic of their wrapped exhaust? | ||
| Krassh |
Here are some pics that Chevycummins posted. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/354027.html?1208529504 Oh and FYI, My Charcoal canister on my CA 1125R is removed so that is not masking the fuel smell in my case. | ||
| Krassh |
Here is another one. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/349501.html | ||
| Court |
>>>>a blanket statement that "those that have not had fuel boil soon will" is irresponsible. And inaccurate. Stuff like that moves folks further from not nearer to solutions. I've maintained, since the first mention of this, that it has little to do with temperature and more to do with pressure. But . . . I confess that's simply a guess based on my long ago studies of Partial Pressures in Gas and the Ideal Gas Laws. Don't get me wrong . . . it may be "boiling" . . just like the shaving cream boils as it hits your hand. . . but I wonder if it's not more due to pressures? | ||
| Ccryder |
Heck Court, I didn't know that shaving cream actually boils when it comes out of the can. (I know boiling is a relative term) Does whipped cream do the same? Inquiring minds need to know!  | ||
| Chevycummins |
Thanks guys, I just felt a little left out and I knew that would get some stuff to fly! I think that the combination of the hot tank, baro pressure and crappy fuel all contribute to the problem. I think that I might even try to get a fuel sample done here in Michigan where I get gas to see if that will tell us anything. My diesel samples are about $100 and I don't know what gas sample would be. It would be nice to know how bad the gas is around here. | ||
| C4bird |
I don't feel it is pressure related entirely, as this would mean there would be noticable venting with a warm tank. I have done a bit of observation and testing with mine, and there is very little to no pressure on the vent line, until the gas starts to boil. I have also notice the liquid coming off the vent line is no longer regular gas, it has the faint smell of fuel, but is more water like in feel and evaporation. Not sure what the boiling vapors have turned into, maybe someone out there with access to a boiling tanked bike and some analysis equipment can look into this.  My experience so far on this topic Purchased the bike new in Dec, rode it very little due to weather, but was able to log 300 miles in sub 40 degree temps. Not a single instance of boiling. First day at 60 degrees, my gas boiled. Nothing special, just out riding on back country roads, not stop and go at all. Every day since this first happened, my gas has boiled, no matter what temp outside. This leads me to believe it is either gas related (always use Shell 93) or that something on the bike changed. Since then, have had the dead battery issue, and a small antifreeze leak (which the dealer fixed) but nothing out of the ordinary. The bike runs phenominal at engine temps between 160 and 185. When ever it gets to 190, it starts to run rough and is noticable unhappy. From day one the bike had Zero codes, and last week it popped up with it's first, the code relating to fuel pressure. This was after a quick stop with the gas boiling, and starting it right back up. Haven't had the code since, but also aven't had to restart while it was hot. Noticed that every time I got home the engine temp was 180-185, and every time it boiled. Last weekend, I decided I was tired of the gas smell filling the garage and put heat reflective tape on the inside and bottom of the frame/tank on the side the header exits. The gas hasn't boiled since Now there is definately something going on, and I agree that there should probably have been a heat shield in place, but it is a first year bike, so some small things are bound to be missed. I am not entirely convinced it is the bike (although my correction numbers are still at 100, maybe related?) it may be the fuel. I am going to test that theory out over the next few tanks of gas, maybe I'll find something it likes better along the way |
