| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
Mike... speaking as an engineer that has had to untangle some *really* nasty problems in my day, I have some advice (that you are more then free to ignore)... Choose one or the other... 1) You fix it and leave the dealer and the factory out of it. We will be happy to help how we can. This sounds nuts to some people, but I fix warranty covered problems on things I own all the time. I've almost ruined more then one warrantied expensive item (terminating my warranty in the process). 2) Let the dealer working with the factory fix it, and keep you hands off it. You have already muddied the water quite a bit by making electrical modifications. I'm not blaming you for the problems, but the more cooks in the kitchen, the harder it is to find the problem. The one entity that is responsible for fixing the problem should be the only one modifying the bike, and they should be allowed to use whatever process they feel is best provided they can demonstrate progress (IMHO). The fact that you were promised a call back and never got it means somebody was inconsiderate or made a mistake. If it were me, I would call and ask for an update. What is the state of your bike right now? Not voltages or temperatures or anything else. If you go out to the garage, does it start? | ||
| Court |
I seriously doubt the Buell tech folks will be calling any owners . . . their privity is with dealers. Dealers, be it right or wrong, are the legal entity charged with handling dealings with the customer. Buell tech supports the dealers. Again. . . . I'm not claiming that's the right or best way but if a person from Buell (don't ask how I know this after being involved in these things for 20+ years) calls and owner and goes around the the dealer . . there will be hell to pay. I'm also not for one moment suggesting there is not something that needs straightened out. But. . . running amok plugging various things into and out of random systems will yield little of value. My bet is that data will be collected, analyzed and fixed. If could be anything from a box of 6 bad voltage regulator to a design the doesn't perform as intended. When I was doing testing I used to, in fact one of my roles was, try to come up with all the "no way in heck anyone would ever try this" scenarios to put systems through. It's how I became the first case of things like bad isolators, failed side-stand switches and so forth. . . . all logged for history into my daily logs. But I also broke and destroyed many things that never, in thousands of Buells, were ever seen again. I'll spare you the story of the Ford Crown Victoria (many of you have grown weary of hearing it) but suffice to say there is merit to seeking root cause and not responding to anecdotal citations. Court | ||
| Baggermike |
Court what I wrote above is fact. Reepicheep I have not done many alterations just the gps and light hooked up to the accessories outlet and a battery tender cable hooked up to the battery which I can plug my gear into, now that the warm weather is hear all that I will be running is high beams and my gps and will see what happens just with these, no battery tender just starting and riding and if I have a problem I will get a new battery and try that and take one step at a time until my bike is dependable. now to go for a ride I hope. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
Reepicheep I understand completely what you are saying, I believe in doing things myself, why pay someone to screw my bike up when I can do it for free, I have learned allot working on this bikes electrical system and now know what to do, I did add another ground cable and seems to help I know longer get the fluctuating voltage I seen at the battery, can you tell me that at idle it is 13.9 volts and as I increase the rpms the voltage drops down a little when I would thing would go up, started fine tonight and rode around shopping and had no problems at all and the bike was sitting for a few days, I am not checking anything just going to ride it and see if a problem happens, and going to make jumper cables just in case I do. time will tell if my problem was a bad ground connection, or riding long distances is a problem because I have not done long distance riding yet thence having problems. Buell has lost a couple of sales already from what my friends have seen and how BMC has treated me. Mike | ||
| Luvthemtorts |
Baggermike, First let me say I am sorry you have had problems with the new ride. BUT.... I can't keep up with your change in mindset. In one thread you want to get rid of it, the next you love it, then you don't like it again. I applaud you for trying to make lemonade when given a lemon (especially since every Buell you have owned seems to have problems) but if it is causing you so much grief get rid of it and buy something you can spend your time riding instead of waiting around on calls from a company who evidently isn't going to keep their promise to you. In any case you seem like a good dude so I hope it all works out for you! | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks Luvthemtorts I am just very frustrated with all that is going on but I know I will get the bike working right, I never had a sport bike and wanted something with allot of power and handling and thought I could turn this bike into an American sport tourer/track bike. I made my choice and I am stuck with it, and like Reepicheep said sometimes it is better to fix it yourself. Mike | ||
| Bobup |
Reepicheep "We have about 992 people *not* posting here because they just hop on their 1125r and ride it every day and have no problems." That is not a "factual" statement....those 992 people "not" posting here DOES NOT IMPLY they are NOT having issues....they may have issues that we don't know about because they do not "post here", and we may never know the true numbers of 1125Rs having issues. | ||
| Bearly |
Yep after 129 posts Bagger (In this tread alone, I counted) in this thread, you've spent a lot of time on the web discussing your problem. I hope you get resolution with your problem soon and still be able to run your lights, GPS, Heated Gear. Did you ever TEST the Gear your self to see what it was drawing? I have heated gear and I know what the manufacture says it will draw. I also know that it could be drawing more than the manufacture says it should with a small malfunction. (short in one area, miss wired etc) For instance my Widder components individually will go to full hot if plugged in the wrong way thus drawing more amperage. I would be most interested to know the difference from one system to the next. Indeed I hope you have spent at least equal time with your dealer and Buell with your problem as you have here with us. I do hope that you've hit on something here with a ground wire. I have had a battery go flat after six days of not riding. I took it to the dealer and they could find nothing wrong with it. You know the old saying "you can't fix it if it ain't broke". My Dealer was very nice to me about the whole thing. They were sorry they could find anything wrong and thus keep me from worrying any more when my battery would go flat. But condition that caused the battery drain didn't exist at the time I took the bike in. I didn't post it here because there was no definitive answers yet. For a long time, I was a test pilot (many moons ago) for aircraft manufacturer. Being a test pilot, is really like being a professional complainer. You go up and find things that aren't correct and then complain about them and have them repaired or re designed. An intermittent problem or a problem that very specific variables had to present to exist were the most difficult problems. No matter how insignificant. An intermittent problem required so much more patients understanding and data points in order to one: get everyone on board, and two: find a solution. Also very hard to understand why one particular plane would have one strange problem. Why would one particular plane lose oil pressure on Both Engines at 35,000' with no leaks? That's a billion to one. That took a lot of patients, understanding and very precise data to help find a solution. I really didn't mention my battery problem on here, because I have nothing really to report. I'm out of town again this week and we'll see how it goes off the tender once again. If it happens again, that will be just one more data point. But still I think your right, Buell has lost sales to some of the smaller problems here on BadWeb. There had been a few would be buyers back out of their deal at my dealer alone. They hear there are "Mega Problems" with the bike. I think most people are just riding there bikes and not having any problems. I think the ones that have problems are being treated with respect and patients (from what I have witnessed.) I will continue to talk up my wonderful motorcycles (four Buells) to everyone that stops me to ask about it/them. (and as you all know, that happens all time) No matter which Buell I'm on, and no matter what bike brand of bike I'm riding with, people will come over to the Buell and demand to know about how I like the bike. They are machines built by humans and they will not be completely void of problems. Nor will one unit be completely and perfectly identical to the very next serial number. They are all however, a very interesting design solution to the "bang for the buck" problem of the best performing motorcycle. (Message edited by bearly on March 27, 2008) | ||
| Baggermike |
Bearly allot of my posts are responding back to others like I am doing now, I have been not posting unless it is to respond as to what I know, if you go back a couple of post you will see what the facts to what BMC did to me, anyway I added a ground wire and the fluctuating of the voltage stopped, I am now going to ride the bike like it has no problems and see what happens, I will be riding with my high beams on in the daytime and gps, there is no way I should have any problems doing this, I know bringing it into the dealership is a was of time unless something breaks, I guess what I read was true that not many techs really know how a charging system works and that all they know is simple test to do and replace parts, three simple things but together complicated, I will now be doing my own testing when I get the right tools, I do not have allot of money so that is a problem, Kisan makes a volt amp meter and will get one when I can afford it and it installs between the neg post and frame to read amps, I have an amp gauge and maybe try to hook it up and see how many amps my heated jacket liner is pulling from the charging system, then I can convert to watts, I also can get a less wattage jacket liner, I also can take the rotor, stator, and voltage regulator to a pro and have it checked out and rewired for more output if needed, someone posted buell is working on a better one for the 09 models and would be an upgrade, but I do not know if that is true, I do not believe anything coming from BMC. Mike | ||
| Blake |
Mike, Who told you that Buell customer service would be calling you back and to whom did you originally speak from Buell customer service? They called you, correct? Is it possible that you misinterpreted what was intended to be a promise that BCS would report back to your dealer on your issue, but not necessarily to you directly? I can see that being a very likely explanation. Miscommunication is an ever-present problem in most all situations like this. I recall the Mars lander ordeal and the Hubble telescope too. Whatever the explanation, I hope resolution of any all of your 1125R charging issues is final and complete. You should put a meter on your vest and other electrical gear to check its actual power draw. Do not do so will always leave that as a gaping unknown in the whole puzzle. Yes? | ||
| Baggermike |
Blake I sent you a P M. I am no longer using heated gear and I am riding the bike like it has no problems with high beams on in the daytime and no battery tender hooked up at night. I did put a extra ground wire from the neg post to the frame and no longer seen the voltage jumping around like it was, I do know my bike was charging in the 14.5 volts and now only 13.9 and as I increased the rpms the voltage drops at the battery with a volt meter and this is strange to me. Mike | ||
| Cmonkey |
This kinda goes back to one of my posts about the current thickness of the wiring between the stator, v-reg, and battery/ground. If you've added another ground, and the battery is finally getting it's charge, then the voltage will drop as the battery is kept closer to it's full capacity. And of course the question that begs asking, is: 'what about the positive side of the battery?' Can you ad an extra lead there? (to where ever it may go) dave | ||
| Citified |
huh, just unplugged mine for 15 minutes to set the suspension. Never turned it on or nothing. Plugged it back in and it has been on recharge for 2 hours now, this cant be good. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Mike, Your charging system is a full wave bridge of an AC waveform, and varies in frequency in direct proportion to RPM. This AC is being averaged out to some degree by your battery (the effect will vary with quality of the battery, but there will always be some effect there). Your meter is measuring DC via an analog to digital converter, with some predefined sampling interval and averaging strategy. You have other devices that can vary current draw at different times under different circumstances with different effect. Like you say, most people don't really understand how the charging system works and just test via the manual. I am probably closer then most on this board to understanding how the whole system works (undergraduate bachelors degree in Electrical Engineering)... and after spending a *lot* of time thinking about it... I test according to the manual  I would *never* try to test the system as a whole and expect to reach any meaningful conclusion. I would only trust my conclusion if I could completely isolate each part (Stator, VR, Battery) and test it completely independently of the rest of the bike. Thats why I tell people to test the stator first... not because it is the most likely piece to fail, but its the easiest piece to isolate and test accurately. Don't just look for the quarter under the streetlight, but if you are going to search the whole street anyway, you might as well star where the light is bright Just one mans opinion. Cool news that your 1125 is just working! And that grounding tip may be useful! Thanks for sharing your solution. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I don't think so. This is a shunt regulator. This is actually an incredibly complicated question that Blake might try and answer via calculus... but I would just go build a circuit (or a pspice program, or maybe even a perl script) and measure. But I don't think the voltage will drop as a result of the battery approaching a full charge. The regulator will regulate, and shunt the voltage to ground at the moment it exceeds the zeener voltage and trips the SCR. So you will get different goofy truncated AC waveforms... which could make your meter read wrong, but I don't think the true voltage will ever really drop as the battery approaches full charge. | ||
| Baggermike |
I really need the manual to go any further with testing, I have everything I need but the manual and going to ride the bike with out anything extra besides my gps that I can not imagine taking more than a couple of watts if that, I also am running leds in the front running lights so that should cover the difference in watts, I will get it figured out and fix it myself. Mike | ||
| Bigdog_tim |
Update on my faulty VR. I got the bike back just as the dealer was closing. They were in as much of a rush to get me out of there as I was to get out too. The good news: I rode her a brisk 50 miles with grips heating and high beams on. As SOON as I got home, I shut her down, let her settle about 15 minutes and checked the battery voltage. All full! Way cool! The bad news: The dealer didn't reset the clock. No big deal. Except: now it won't go into setup mode. I don't have the security system set. Any clues anyone? | ||
| Spectrum |
Tim - On another thread we saw the ODO malfunctioning due to low voltage situation. The solution was to disconnect and reconnect the battery when fully charged. Might work for you as well. Basically a clean power reset of the device. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Good news Tim! Mike, you are right... not having a service manual out and available is making this much more painful to everyone trying to fix it (both dealers and individuals...) Not having the manuals out with the bikes (at least in electronic form to the dealers) was a mistake. I wonder how many 1125r owners would have willingly signed up for this "risk" if given the choice? If they got a call saying "hey, your 1125r is ready to go, but the service manual isn't ready yet, do you want to wait to get it, or take the chance that there may be some debugging pains if there is a problem before the manual is done?". Probably 99.9% of them would say "ship the bike!". There is a cost to these things though... and here it is. One batch of bad VR's, combined with confusing responses from Harley (errr... Buell) customer support, and no clear service manual, and (as usual), several minor problems converge to a significant annoyance. (And it sounds like perhaps the "infant care" program should have had perhaps been an "grizzled old veteran care program"...  Seems like some old mistakes may have been repeated)... | ||
| Court |
zeener Zener >>>I do not believe anything coming from BMC. That would be inaccurate. The folks at Buell are honest, knowledgeable and keep their promises. You did not talk to a Buell employee. The "infant" would have died. Responses have been (just from the angle I view it from) inconsistent, metered and slow. It creates the appearance of not knowing or having something to hide. What a shame because behind the intermediaries are a group of really smart folks who've been shuttling to and from Austria, designed the electrical system and know this thing well. I suspect the root is a bad batch of some things that did not play well with something else. Easy fix. But . . .as is typical in the world of customer service . . . the delivery of the solution is just as important as the solution. SERVICE sells. Ever hear Dominoes advertise "we have great pizza". NEVER. . . it's always "in an hour or it's free". SERVICE SELLS. It hurts me. I recall the day some S1WL's got shipped with a boo-boo (BIG boo-boo_ and I was able to isolate the VIN's and call each and every person who had one, tell them the problem and make them my "partner" in making the solution work. They WANTED to succeed and be part of the solution. I suspect that of all the 1125's buzzing about there are about enough owners to fill a Ford maxi-van who are having this problem. There should be ONE PERSON who is the 1125R contact person. . . . a ONE CALL system (it should be available ONLY to dealers) and when a call comes in that person OWNS the problem until an e-mail, from the dealer, which says PROBLEM SOLVED is in hand. That e-mail MUST be stapled to the file to close it. I'd love to have Jennifer and Joni, our cardboard boxes and the 1-800-Buellnow line for 90 days. Events like this should make companies look like heros and customers like Kings. Dave and I may have to go back to East Troy on temporary duty for 6 months. . . That ought to scare them! Court | ||
| Slypiranna |
With all due respect Court, Further inaccurate statements? Ok. Search the archives and read more than one accurate statement by again, more than one new owner that has an issue worth immediate attention by all those responsible to resolve asap. That is accurate. Even thought to be accurate but proven inaccurate statements by the owners manual along with HD/Buell Trained Dealership Techs that have been flown to the new training seminar. Fact. None of which is a positive from a customer's standpoint. Let's cut the politics and point out the pimples and deem them simply, pimples. Customer service does have its place but most customer service reps (in most all professions) are not educated and or experienced enough to handle this or many other subjects contained herein. Their main purpose is to interpret, hopefully diffuse the customer in the process and channel the information or complaint to those that can find resolve. That is why customer service reps do not make the $'s those above them do. Education and hands on experience or the lack there of. Your customer service efforts just might have been that of a select few in this day and age if you look at the industry as a whole. Your experience and insight was/is one in a few thousand perhaps? I seriously doubt but I could be wrong...that the customer service lady that I spoke with last week rode and or even knew much about my 11...she put me on hold twice to ask others my questions...and even then, my simple questions were left to wait and wonder. There was no definitive answer nor anyone else to be transfered to that could answer. There are more than a simple few with an electrical related problem that could be more than one simple bad batch of parts. It could in fact, be a flaw that has yet to be known to the general public and or lucky new owner. Just because there are 1k(?) other bikes/owners that have not posted here does not prove them OK. That would be and might prove to be...a dangerous assumption. Its information that this problem, along with a few more possibly inherent to this model, that demand NOW attention and at almost any reasonable cost...even if that means a new call back associate for this "select few"...unsatisfied owners. Those select few have surely put doubt in many new potential buyers...more than a school bus could hold. Bottom line, this IS a good company overall and this IS a good bike overall but there needs to be more effort in accurate & timely information given to more than just a dealer...as more than one of these new owners are better techs and could offer more than have yet been asked to do. I think that most owners would be more than willing to offer assistance, if handled in a more appropriate manner. They might even be more patient in the process? That would be good customer service from what this 2 cents is worth. I'll go back to my fishbowl now. | ||
| Court |
The problem is that we have NO facts. The sum total of all the 1125R owners who have reported (on badweb) electrical problems won't begin to fill your school bus. . . . . It's made more complicated by cases like that of baggermike. I enjoy wading through his posts but confess that when he co-mingles problems with his blast, ulysses and 1125R that trying to put my finger on a specific problem to chase down is tough. It gets worse when he reports an electrical problem (which, by the way I think is real) and then modifies the configuration of the bike twice daily . . . . adding and subtracting various pieces of gear, changing lights, adding supplemental grounds, a cacophony of in-line voltage gauges and so forth. Too many variables in motion to allow any meaningful data to be gained from that bike.vendor It could easily, at this point, be something as simple as a vendor shipping a box of 12 of the wrong parts that looked identical to to correct part. The gal you spoke to may or may not be a motorcycle rider. I'm pleased that she had the knowledge to know when to put you on hold and ask. I know where she sits and I know the guys at the desks surround the large table (where "hands on" parts sit to allow reps to actually hold the part while they are discussing it) and I know the background of some of these folks. Among their number are folks who've owned and operated respected Buell performance shops and hold land speed records. In addition, located 32 miles away are a group of technical folks who are traveling engineers and trouble shooters. They are armed with a combination of excellent education, plenty of authority and years of riding skills. So you are suggesting that Buell talk directly to the customer on technical issues and circumvent the dealer technical personnel. Seems like it would be a tough sell. It's tough to get a very accurate sense of a problem from looking at one website. I'd compare it to trying to guess the message written on the cake by looking at one "for our purposes we'll assume 3%) slice of the cake. I think Buell needs to improve their communication. . . but not by cutting out the folks at the dealer level. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Nor did I mean bypass the dealership...but involve the owner more on a proven accurate information/participation level within that loop to help expedite solutions. Lets just assume that a box of 12 bad vrs were shipped...surely by now, months into this one subject, new owners would have/should have been notified in letter form by HD/Buell. That not being the case, the problem points to something a little deeper than one bad run on only a hand full of bikes. I agree with you on the jumping around of information. We all are guilty of that one from time to time. I guess we all have to find a tolerance level in this regard as we all are human beings and do make mistakes. The school bus I was referring to was filled with potential future owners that have been scared off...not the number of current owners. I have had at least six total strangers ready to buy...contact me via ebay/phone just to ask my opinion of this bike. For now, my answer has been somewhat safe. I compare it to a marriage. There are good days and then there are bad days but we are still working on it. Time will tell. With that, I leave the discussion open for others and thank you for your time. | ||
| Baggermike |
Hi Court you say I added allot of things this is partly untrue, I had added the extra ground because the voltage was jumping around so I made a simple wire and ran it from the neg post to the frame, now the voltage does not jump around, I did add a led volt meter and battery tender wire to the battery that I used to plug in my gear, I just got done installing hid lights that are the same watts as the bulbs that I replaced, I have not have had any help so far and I am done bringing it to the dealership for them to tell me everything is working like it should, if this is true why riding to the dealership did the engine light come on and got a voltage code PO562, then they tell me nothing is wrong, I am frustrated that I have brought it in an they say it is fine, now last night I went for a ride just low beams my gps and the led volt meter shift light, I also removed the front running lights so that used more power than the shift light and gps, I left with the battery ready 12.5 and got home and it was reading 12.3 at the battery, I know it is wrong and I am not getting the help I should and I am tired of bringing it in and being told nothing is wrong, so I guess it is up to me to figure this out, but wait, I can not get the ((work shop manual)) so how can I do this. Mike | ||
| Court |
>>>>so I guess it is up to me to figure this out, It's kinda gonna have to be . . . I try to log in here once or twice a day, and I score fairly well at reading comprehension and have at least basic technical proficiency . . and there is no way I can keep track of current state of things. One of the basic elements, and the folks at Buell are keen on this, to sorting something like this out is to minimize the variables, eliminate extraneous stuff and attempt to isolate individual elements to find what the root cause is. Court | ||
| Ccryder |
+1 on Root Cause! Trying to hit the moving target can be VERY difficult, if not down right impossible! Neil S. | ||
| Zac4mac |
The FIRST rule of debugging is ONE CHANGE AT A TIME. Deviation only results in chasing your tail. I've had to throttle more than one junior engineer for that one. Z | ||
| Court |
Interesting thing I've found after years of preparing motorcycles for a variety of events ranging from combat touring and Iron Butt activities to racing. . . the MOST reliable motorcycle is one that has not been touched. Touch carefully. | ||
| Ccryder |
Court, Z: Always good advice. The other tidbit is not to change anything just before you go on a trip. Give those changes time to work or, stop working. I can't count how many times that has bit my butt or, someone I was riding with! Time2 Go play Greenbelt. Neil S. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Maybe I should take my OEM lights along, since I'm installing HIDs and a relay tomorrow. I plan on leaving for Texas the following day. Still working on what to take and where to put it. I can't wait, wife is... less than enthused. Z |
