| Author | Message | ||
     Baggermike |
Hi Zack I was using a volt meter at the battery when the voltage was jumping around and was the same in dio mode as at the battery so I was watching both and was not using the volt meter shift light that works good. took me some time to program it and I have the first green light come on at 4000 rpm and ends up at 10,000 leaving 500 rpm for reaction time. it has 4 green 2 amber and 1 red and each light can light up and go out as the rpms increase or stay lit all the way up and then flash at red line has some other modes still learning how to use it. I was using it as a Eclip shift light as a volt meter while riding. what did you do with the mirrors you took off your bike, one of mine is messed up so I am looking for another set, I might do what you did with the running lights, you can get a circuit that will shut off the light when you use the turn signals which I might have both so when the mirror is on the lower light would be off and on when the mirror is off so it would look like it was going up and down. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
I am going to check the ground if I can find it in the morning before going for the ride. the bike did good with my heated jacket hooked up but then I went for a ride and it was allot warmer and got home and tested the battery and was low and this surprised me so I checked running voltage and was jumping around. now I know why there are not allot of people who understand charging systems there weird. I am trying to understand so I can know if I do got a problem, it was in the shop for three weeks and they did not do anything but replace a locked up fuel pump. Mike | ||
| Zac4mac |
Mike, which mirror do you need? Justin at High Country has a RH mirror I think. I scrapped mine, salvaged the LEDs only, might do something with them, later. Z | ||
| Reepicheep |
No Mike, that wasn't it. BenM2 hit it... what I would love to know is what the battery is doing, and to really know you have to know both volts and amps. The problem is, the moment you thumb that starter, you are going to be cranking hundreds of amps through that wire, which will blow most meters. So what I was suggesting was just wiring a current meter in line (in series) with the battery positive lead, but also putting a "jumper" around it, so that when you start the bike, the current is going through the jumper and not the meter. After the bike is running, you can then disconnect the jumper and all the current goes through the meter (which I doubt would get much over 5 amps). So, trying to describe it again. Hook up your amp meter to be inline with the positive battery terminal wire. Flip on the headlights and watch the amps go up just so you know its all working and you are measuring it correctly. Now use a big thick jumper wire (like a battery jumper cable) to "bypass" the amp meter long enough to get the bike started. (Note: Amp meters are in series, and so to bypass them you just short across them with a big wire. Volt meters hook up in parallel, so make sure you don't "bypass" them with a short, as you just made a welder.  ) Once you have protected your meter from that big current surge to the starter motor, you can remove your jumper and see exactly what the bike is doing to the battery at any load and any RPM (but without letting the magic smoke out of the meter). Just never hit that starter button with the meter wired in like that... most meters will get smoked, though at 60 amps you have a much better meter then normal. I have a harbor freight inductive ammeter, and I was underwhelmed. Measures AC only, and doesn't even aseem to do well at that. Of course, it was only a $15 meter, so no doubt I got what I paid for. Want me to draw a (bad) picture? | ||
| Zac4mac |
Bill, if Mike starts his bike first, then clips the NEG lead of the Ammeter to the positive post of the battery and the POS lead to the red cable, then disconnect the red cable from the battery, he's there. Or did I mix-up polarity again? Like jumping-out a door alarm...  Zack | ||
| Baggermike |
Zack I need the right hand, do the leds snap out or do you have to remove the mirror to get the leds out? I think I know now what Reepicheep means so I am off riding to see what the other battery does. Reepicheep I understand now and I run two wires from the positive cable to the battery one has the amp meter between one wire and the second wire goes strait to the battery for starting and then is remove so that I have just the one wire with the amp meter in line. The instructions say that the large wire going from the battery to the starter and then from the starter there should be a wire going to the rest of the bikes needs. like in line and one big wire goes to it and then a smaller wire comes off the battery to the bikes electrical needs. I do not know if it is Like this on the bike because (( WE DO NOT HAVE A MANUAL)) anyway I understand now what you are telling me, I did not think about the battery sending that many amps to the starter. I was thinking that only 32 amps was the limit, I should have known this a battery is rated at 200 cold cranking amps that should have registered in my brain but did not. thanks for helping me out. I really should say thanks to everyone for helping me. it is hard for me to concentrate, I have had one to many head injuries, I find it frustrating to know I had no problems learning new things and now I do, I have to read things over and over again to understand. I am trying my hardest to learn how the charging system works, and now I understand how it works but troubleshooting is what is confusing with things changing, like voltage dropping as I increased the rpms, or the voltage jumping around. now to go for a ride and see if I see any difference with the battery that came with the bike. then I will hook up the amp meter. Mike | ||
| Ccryder |
Mike: You are doing a great service to all of us Buelligans and, boldly going where none have gone before (at least on the 1125r). Please be careful when experimenting with your 25r. She can be replaced but you cannot. Amps like you will see during starting and, even running, can be hazardous to human life. Thank You Neil S. | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks Neil I will be careful I learned my lesson a long time ago and got hit by house power, now that woke me up. I checked the ground wire felt tight so I made a jumper wire from the negative post to the frame, just to help. I also found a plug with three wires right above the oil filter it looks like it is coming from the stator but do not know it is behind more plastic covering it and it is not the one the techs plug into. got a few more things to do and I am off and riding and will report what I find out. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
OK now I know something is wrong I started my ride with a full charge with the battery that came with the bike and measured over 12.8 this morning, I checked running volts before leaving and was 13.8 volts, I could not get over that no matter how high the rpms are. so I went for a ride with just my high beams on and I could tell by my volt meter things were different, got home from just regaler riding not highway not traffic and the battery is 12.3 volts. now I checked running volts and they are low 13.3 at idle or revving the motor to 5000 rpms and was not jumping around but was moving a little and was going up and down around 13.1 and high around 13.3, I put the bike in dio mode and got 12.7 running volts and revving the motor did not get it over 12.8. something is wrong. I will do a amp test next. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
Ok Guys I did it, I got the bike running and then had the amp meter in line and it showed a little at idle but as soon as I increased the rpms it looked like ac current. the needle was rapidly going both ways + and - I could hardly see the needle it was going so fast. called my dealership and they told me to bring it in. I think Buell should give me a new stator, voltage regulator and battery. after all these test I do not trust anything that has to do with the charging system. I also hope Buell will send these parts for the bike to be waiting for it. any suggestions on who I should talk to at Buell about this problem. Mike | ||
| Court |
>>>>any suggestions on who I should talk to at Buell about this problem. Your Buell dealer. I suspect the wild oscillation you describe was vibration. Did you use a digital or analog meter? | ||
| Baggermike |
Court it is a car gauge that you mount in the dash and has a needle, I was holding it in my hand also so I do not think it could be vibrations Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
Hey guys anyone help me with this I am not sure I have done this right, I used my multi meter for checking the three yellow wires coming from the stator and I measure like A+B A+C B+C and they all read the same but not sure I had the multi meter in the right mode I need to know the mode for the switch and wires, they all read the same when I tested them so the voltage regulator must be screwed up because it is suppose to turn ac current into dc current and it was not doing it from what the amp gauge showed, the only way the amp meter could have been going back and fourth in a blur is that the voltage regulator is bad and not converting ac into dc. I can not find the directions to the meter, if my head was not on my shoulders I would loose my body LOL Mike | ||
| Reepicheep |
You should be measuring resistance (ohms) on those wires (and you just verified it's a three phase regulator as well). They should all register the same, and be some low number of ohms (5 ohms maybe?). Also measure each to ground... the resistance should be infinite. If you have the time, you might want to scare up the 96 S1 manual PDF that is here on badweb somewhere. I suspect it has the same "charging system diagnostics" process that my M2 service manual used to have. It's not the most efficient process, but if you have the time it will take you to *exactly* what the problem is. That charging system is probably close enough to the 1125R charging system to get you on track. If you start the bike with the stator disconnected (running the bike off the battery just fine), you should also be able to measure AC Volts (not DC volts) across each of those stator output pairs. I think it should be 17+ volts or something at idle, and up into 60+ volts at higher RPM. This should be described in detail in that S1 manual. The amp reading is interesting. It does actually make some sense that there is an AC component... A shunt regulator lets the voltage climb until it crosses some threshold of regulation (13.8v?), and then basically just "shorts out" the voltage regulator (through an SCR) for the rest of that cycle. The shorted SCR will reset with the next cycle, once the voltage drops below .6 volts. The three phase regulator should "reset" 6 times for each engine revolution (3 phases, each full wave rectified). So while the voltage is climbing, it is pumping current into the battery. Once the voltage regulator "shorts out" the stator, the battery is then returning power to the bike. Thats why the bike runs awful without a battery. I expected the meter to average all this out and give you what looks like a DC flow. Your meter may be just too fast. Or perhaps your battery is not taking current well. So the VR is trying to give it current, its not accepting it, and so the VR almost immediately goes over voltage and shunts out the stator. This could create all sorts of runnability problems. A good battery is what smoothes the whole system out to look like DC. (Message edited by reepicheep on March 04, 2008) | ||
| Blake |
"the only way the amp meter could have been going back and fourth in a blur is that the voltage regulator is bad and not converting ac into dc." Mike, please beware of making assumptions like that. Most often they prove untrue. AS Bill explains in much better detail than I could ever muster, no automotive or motorcycle charging system produces true, unfluctuating DC current, far from it. So any measurements you make with the engine running and charging system engaged may be significantly in error or misleading. I think the bottom line is that your bike is running and charging as it should now, yes? For anything more, I suggest EE101 and beyond. Fun stuff. | ||
| Blake |
Anyone have an oscilloscope that Mike can borrow? | ||
| Baggermike |
Blake I have had problems with this bike sense new, I had a bad voltage regulator and that can harm the battery and I have used to batteries for my test, I have seen some strange things like the voltage dropping with the rpms climbing. or the voltage fluctuating so fast I could hardly read it. I left the house with a fully charged battery and just rode around with my high beams on, it was a short ride less than an hour and got home with a low battery, yesterday it was cold when riding today was 35 degrees warmer, so I do not know if the discharging faster was because of the temperature or because of the battery being hurt by the bad voltage regulator that I had but there was a big difference in charging. in dio mode with the bike running the volts were in the middle to high twelves at the battery low thirteens, yesterday I was using my 90 watt heated jacket and rode longer with out loosing as much voltage as today with the high beams on, I can see maybe that the bike might drain on the battery if in heavy stop and go traffic but I was riding in no traffic just every day riding with the high beams on and it discharged the battery, I spoke with both the service manager and the dealership manager and both agreed there is something wrong, also Buell has sent out a paper saying that if you use add to much acc like heated gear it can hurt the bike, I found this out this today from my dealership manager and he read it to me, this is new news, but he agreed the bike should be able to run with high beams on, I have posted many test and no one said that it is normal for the voltage to drop as rpms increase, I know it is not normal, the job of the voltage regulator is to convert ac voltage into dc voltage and charge the battery as it gets low and it is not doing that, I know for a fact that voltage does not drop when a battery is low and the rpms increase, I have tested this bike and have gotten over 14 volts but that stopped a long before the bike went in to the shop, I thought the bike was doing good and after riding yesterday it had warmed up and I went to do some errands and no heated gear and no high beams and the battery went down and there was a big temperature change yesterday. I tested the voltage and it was jumping around fast when I got home from the second ride yesterday afternoon when it was warm out and the voltage dropped down and so did the battery and the voltage was erratic with the bike running, all I know is I am seeing weird things happening and the service manager also agreed something is not right. I do not think I am suppose to have to work on my brand new bike to find out it is not working right and that left at the dealership nothing gets done. I have been to the dealership many times and then it sat there for 3 weeks and only had a fuel pump replaced and was because I kept calling buell C S. my bike was at the dealership and all they can tell me is we only can do what harley says we can. I am not the only one have problems with the charging system. there are three links in the chain fist is the stator then the voltage regulator and then the battery, and some thing is wrong with one or more of the links. Mike | ||
| Reepicheep |
Start with the stator, and test it disconnected from the rest of the bike (one plug). Measure its volts versus RPM (need AC Volts on the meter) across all three phases. The stator is not the most likely to fail, but its the easiest to isolate and test. | ||
| Baggermike |
Ok thanks Reepicheep, I will try that tomorrow, why are you called Reepicheep, and what is your first name so I can call you by it. I do not know if the warm weather had something to do with my bike or not but it seemed to, but maybe it is just weird. I do know I have seen the bike running in the 14+ before it went into the shop and now I have not seen that many volts coming out of the voltage regulator. This all sound real simple, just three things a generator, voltage regulator, and battery, but under its wires it is very complicated. I feel like I am in school and failing. I also have no confidence in the guys at the shop will figure it out, they tell me they can only do what harley says they can. this is why the ulysses I had took almost three month to fix, I told them the oil pump broke and I felt it break and the top end was making allot of noise, but they did not listen to me and now I feel if I do not have strong evidence it will not get fix either for a long time. Mike | ||
| Reepicheep |
Reepicheep is a character from The Chronicles of Narnia, written by CS Lewis. He represents a lot of what I aspire to be. Here is a good summary: http://www.narniaweb.com/narnia-character-profiles .asp?id=78 You have to read the books to really appreciate him though... You can click on peoples user names on the left and get to their profile, my name (Bill) is in there with some other information. You are right about the charging system, it is three simple parts that combine to a remarkably complicated to diagnose system. | ||
| Benm2 |
Reep, The S1 alternator is single phase, btw. From Mike's description, sounds like his is three phase. After running my alternators through a bridge rectifier & a simple parallel cap, I've got no visible fluctuation in DC voltage measured out. Mike, sounds like possibly bad regulator and/or bad stator. The three wires coming out of the stator are the three phases of AC coming out. The voltages across any two wires should be identical when the bike is running. Make sure your meter is set to AC to measure the voltage. At idle the AC might be less than 13V, rectifying & filtering it to DC "raises" the voltage. The meter in AC mode measures RMS voltage, which is less than the peak-to-peak voltage. This voltage should come up as you raise RPM, up to 60-70V or so, depending on the alternator design. If the AC voltage is different across the legs, or it drops off at some voltage (as rpm is raised), then its likely your stator is fried. Test the alternator output with the leads completely disconnected from the battery: the bike will be running off the battery only so make sure its fully charged first. This is a garage test, no accessories! If the stator passes, then check the regulator. I'm trying to think of an easy way to do this, but I need some more time. I'll try to think of something easy later. | ||
| Jpfive |
Seems like a good place to restate info I posted earlier. According to the Buell team that worked on my bike, the 1125 is equipped with a 3-phase, permanent magnet generator, controlled by a shunt type rectifier/regulator. The electrical systems are designed to perform to spec at a minimum nominal voltage of 11.7V. The system is rated to carry high beams and heated grips at rpm's above 2200 with the engine at operating temperature. I don't know how this will compare with the official specs that will be published in the service manual, but this is what I was told in a phone conversation with Buell's tech in Troy. While they were in the store here in Pensacola (they made three trips) nearly 90 miles of dyno time was logged on my bike. Extensive data was collected on laptop and taken back to Troy - I imagine for evaluation and benchmarking purposes. I was able to view charging traces from my bike for both the original stator and the replacement. The replacement stator is an OEM piece, not a redesign. Both stators would produce 14+ volts at idle when cold, with voltage falling as the bike warmed up. The replacement stator retained about .4V better voltage when warm, putting out about 13.6V at operating temp - which is the nominal charging spec for the system. There was no definite fault with the old stator, other than it being weaker at high temp. There was some random and sporadic indications of grounding that appeared traceable to the old stator that was not evident with the new one. The old stator was retained for further analysis. I hope this is helpful to you EE types out there. Jack | ||
| Nickcaro |
In The Voyage of The Dawn Trader, the best part is when Reepicheep dives in to the ocean cause he thinks his honor is being challenged by the little sea people. His character is truly inspiring. | ||
| Blake |
Mike, Either I no read good, or you are still dwelling on former issues that no longer afflict your 1125R. I know your history, but thought I just read yesterday that you had proved the bike charging okay on the road using your new battery. No? As to your current (no pun intended) assumptions and observations: Bill will correct me if I'm wrong, but a low battery will draw more current from the charging system, yes? That increased current leads to increased voltage drop between teh regulator and the batter, possibly elsewhere as well. That increased voltage drop will directly affect the voltage measured at the battery terminals when charging a low battery. I'm thinking that if you hook your regular old plug-in battery charger to a depleted battery versus a fully charged good one, you should be able to see the same exact behavior. V=IR If current (I) increases, the voltage drop (V) will also increase. So please clarify, what is the current (no pun intended) actual problem, if any, that you are experiencing with your 1125R charging system/battery? That it won't idle and support high beams and heated gear without drawing down the battery?  I wonder if there is a motorcycle made that won't. Sounds to me like your original battery is bad. That should be simple to prove. Yes? (Message edited by blake on March 05, 2008) | ||
| Blake |
Benm2 and Jpfive, Thanks for that excellent information. | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks Guys. Bill Thanks for telling me how to test my bike. Jack, is it alright to print out your post and give it to the techs at my dealership. Benm the charging system of the buells are like this. 1125R 32 amp permanent magnet three-phase solid state alternator with solid state regulator 432 watts @ 7000 rpm with 432 watts peak. xb bikes 30 amp max permanent magnet single phase alternator with solid state regulator 405 watts @ 3000 rpm 405 watts max Blast 297 watt ac alternator solid state regulator/fectifier. I do not know how the xb heats my heated gear but the blast does it with no problems and that wattage for all my heated gear comes to 194 watts. so when comparing watts when I was trying to decide to get a 08 ulysses or the 1125R I thought that the 1125R would heat all my gear better than all the other bikes. but I did not know anything about charging systems so it was a guess. if I bought the ulysses I would have made modifications to it for more power and suspension mods, which breaks down to spending allot more money. if I bought the 1125R I knew it had the power and handling I wanted so I would not be spending money on it so the logical choice was the 1125R. what is hard for me to understand is these ratings for wattage and amps, I do not know why Buell or other bike manufacturers just put down that the bike will handle so many extra watts for accessories. after all that is what really matters and what I am sure everyone wants to know. and from what bill said the bike is capable of handling 106 watts and my jacket liner is only 90 watts, I have a program given to me by one of the guys on bad web and I came out good with my jacket liner and gloves with the high beams off and with them on it was to much. yesterday I just rode around normal riding and the battery discharged, and I think I have the same problem as Jack. plus the voltage regulator was replaced and if the stator was bad to begin with would it hurt the voltage regulator. I read that the voltage regulator will hurt the battery so I think if my customer had been having all these problems then I would replace all three knowing that other bikes had the same problem. anyway I will test the stator and post what I find out. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
Hi Blake I did think it was, working then I rode the bike with out my heated liner because it got warm and the battery discharged I swapped batteries and things got worse, yesterday I rode around with just the high beams on and rode less than an hour and the battery dropped down in voltage. I have done many test and do not always get the same results. the amp meter I use is one for a cars dash bord and was holding it in my hand and the needle was going crazy, I have seen the voltage dropped as I raised the rpms, I have seen the voltage steady and jumping around, anyway I am bringing it to the dealership tomorrow. what I have seen is a really weird charging system and it is hard to dio the charging system under different conditions like temperature. now jack wrote that the bike is made to handle the running of high beams and heated grips, that is 106 watts and my jacket liner is 90 watts, so I should not have a battery discharging under the riding conditions. mike | ||
| Court |
I keep getting the urge to get on an 1125R . . . ride it from New York City to LA and back . . . and see what issues arise. I am too old for this. | ||
| Baggermike |
Just got the bike started and all three yellow wires are reading the same around 11 volts ac at idle and up to 40 volts ac at around 5000 rpms. voltage is 13.2 idle and as I raise the rpms it goes to 13.8 just off idle but if I keep increasing rpms it starts dropping down. I am going to let the bike run for a while and see what I get for info. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
voltage dropped down at both the stator which was 11 volts at idle down to 8 volts and took allot more rpms to hit 40 volts. running volts at battery 12.4 at idle and 13.6 just over idle and does not get any better, battery was fully charged and now is 11.9 volts. bike temp was 190 degrees Mike |
