| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
"You denying it is as absurd as your trying to dismiss the 1125r problems here. You're a strange bird! Most of the time you operate a great place and make me want to shake your hand with congratulations, but then other times I think that you are delusional or blind at the very least." You, you, you, you... sure like to talk about me. Wrong thread for that. Start another one in the Quick board if Blake is your desired topic of discussion. If you cannot honor my requests or those of other custodians here, then you need to cease contributing to this forum. It's that simple amigo. It's also what you agreed to when you registered your account here. We have no agenda other than to do our best to provide a place of integrity and value in support of fellow Buell enthusiasts. There is absolutely no value in your self-important false accusations concerning BadWeB here in this thread. Not only because they are false accusations, but because they offer absolutely nothing constructive to the issue at hand. They in fact serve only to distract from it. Some folks like to play the critic and hear themselves talk. If that's your thing, if looking down upon others and publicly making sweeping insulting accusations is what trips your trigger, then BadWeB ain't the place for you. You just lied again in stating that I've tried to dismiss anyone's problems here. Then you launched into some deranged personal attack. I'm the "strange bird"? LOL! If you don't care to respect me and the rest of the custodians here, and if you don't feel obliged to honor your agreement to abide by our rules, then you have no business on BadWeB. It's entirely your choice. I'll not argue the issue further. I have WAY better things to do with my time. | ||
| Hexangler |
Okra anyone? | ||
| P_squared |
I'm tryin to stay seated in my chair instead of rolling on the floor LAUGHING! This is an internet BB for Buell enthusiasts. You agreed to the TOS when you signed up. If you don't like it, leave. If that's a bit "draconian" for your personal preferences, then remember that this is a website. It is IMPOSSIBLE to determine tone, nuance, etc. from a written word here. I don't think anyone makes "personal attacks" their respective "daily goal" here, and that most definitely includes the custodians. Hell, if it weren't for Blake having this sight, I'd STILL be putzing 'round in my garage trying to figure out if I wanted to pay a dealer to change rocker box gaskets on my tubers! Having said that, I've NEVER seen folks getting "ridiculed" when they're experiencing problems, PROVIDED they approach it with two "items" cared for: 1) CONSTRUCTIVE criticism 2) Playing by the rules we all agreed to. (All bets are off if you are, or are PERCEIVED, to be "whining".) Seems we're all here for supposedly the same things: 1) Bikes we LOVE 2) MORE information 3) A "network" that provides useful information we can't get anywhere else. Ok, my $0.02 here is done. Have a nice day everyone whilst I impatiently await the arrival of my 1125R. | ||
| Baggermike |
Hey guys can we get back to the issue of the charging systems. I think my charging system is working good enough that I will not get stranded. I might have had a battery problem and will have to install the battery that came with the bike and do the same test and see if I get the same results. I just rode the bike for one and a half hours not going between 3000 rpms and not going over 4000 rpms with my 90 watt heated jacket hooked up. I did notice that the voltage dropped down a little when it got to running temp or after 20 minute. I left with my battery at 12.5 volts got home and 12.6 volts. can anyone tell me if it is normal for the charging system to drop a little as the motor get hot? I hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Mike | ||
| Blake |
That additional data is much appreciated Mike. Thank you. It seems plausible that since the electrical conductivity of copper diminishes with increasing temperature, and considering the amount/length of copper windings comprising the stator, it would be perfectly normal for the generator output voltage to drop noticeably as the stator heats up along with the engine. I'll see if I can dig up some data for the resistance versus temperature relation for copper and we can then relate that to temperature increase and compare theoretical voltage drop to what has been measured. This is the fun stuff.  | ||
| Blake |
P_squared, Be careful; keep that kind of crazy talk up and you may login one day and discover that you've been inflicted with custodial status.  Thank you for your thoughtful commentary. You have no idea how much it is appreciated. | ||
| Blake |
Mike, here's what I found for copper: At 20oC (68oF) Copper has a resistivity of 1.72E-08 Ohm-m. For every degree Celcius increase in temperature, copper's resistivity increases 0.0039E-08 Ohm-m, so at 90oC (194oF), copper's resistivity increases by 0.0039 * (90 - 20) = 0.273E-08 Ohm-m compared to that at 20oC (68oF). That represents a 15.9% increase in resistivity (0.273/1.72 = 0.159 = 15.9%). So it may well be expected and perfectly normal that in going from room temperature to hot engine, the charging system's voltage output may drop by approximately 16%? That would surely apply for a simple linear circuit, but with the Voltage regulator in play, I'm not sure how it works out. Bill knows but is avoiding us. | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks Blake you were right about my jacket causing helmet shake. and thanks for the info on the charging system I just got back and hit 130 and my helmet was not shaking because I had my leather jacket on. so thanks for the suggestion it worked. also thanks for any thing you can tell me about the charging system. so can you help me with this. I would like to know if a charging system is like a motor with the horse power curve and as the rpms goes up the hp goes up. does a charging system work the same way. or is it like fixed at a certain rpm and as the rpms go up the watts stay the same. like at 4000 rpms it is putting out 300 watts and at at 7000 rpms it is putting out 300 watts. I am trying to learn everything I can about charging system and exhaust systems. this bike is awesome. I am also going to race school to learn how to control this power. would be nice to afford many bikes but I just have two and one is the blast that I bought for my son to teach him to ride. I can not afford a car so the 1125R is my primary transportation so I need to know it is dependable, but just in case I have the blast is my back up transportation. I found out the hard way when the ulysses I had broke down and took over two month to get it back and it was not right and had to go back. I am rebuilding the blast and been buying parts off ebay and will have that for next winter. it will run all my heated gear and I can get snow tires and studs and use it all winter and take the 1125R off the road to save some money. I now know the bike will heat my jacket liner as long as I am not stuck in traffic so I am all set for touring and the heated jacket is all I need to have for touring. Mike | ||
| Reepicheep |
First, the regulation voltage is likely ultimately determined by a reverse biased zeener diode in the voltage regulator. Those absolutely *are* temperature sensitive, and .1 v for a cold versus warm bike sounds exactly like I would expect (if anything, a little on the low side). The alternator does in fact generate power porportional to RPM's, just like a motor. The more RPM's, the more power it makes. The actual numbers will be... complicated... you start with a sine wave, run that through a bridge to get the bottom half of the sine wave flopped over to the top of the sine wave, with 2x as many peaks but half as high. But now all positive. I know the frequency of this sine wave will increase with RPM, and the peaks will get taller, and the shunting voltage regulator lops off part of these chopped and flopped sine waves... so the net effect (from a mathematical standpoint) would be a fairly ridiculously complicated calculation... but its possible. You need an Oscilloscope to really see what is happening at each point, as a big chunk of the system is AC, and even the DC has a significant AC component (if your battey has issues). | ||
| Reepicheep |
Looked it up, and what you see sounds exactly what it should be: http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/760 Lets see if they will let me imagelink....  Not for a 12V zeener (which would be worse probably) but shows you that the regulation is actually *better* then expected... so there is probably some sort of temperature compensation already built in. | ||
| Ccryder |
Mike: Now we know why your battery is staying charged: "I just got back and hit 130" That should keep it charged! Time2Roll Neil S. | ||
| Ducxl |
Yeah Mike,be careful how many trips you make up there around 130 MPH. If the law catches you,You'll go STRAIGHT to jail. I'm not preaching as,i do it as well.But be aware of the implications. | ||
| Blake |
Mike, I gratefully defer to Bill (Reepicheep) concerning the electrical stuff! I know just enough of that to be dangerous, not only to others, but to myself. I still have a screw driver with the tip completely melted off by an unexpected arc of 220V to remind me of my dangerous ignorance. Good to hear you solved the helmet buffeting. | ||
| Benm2 |
Mike: Alternator output will drop with temperature; the magnets used in the rotor lose their power as temp increases. Alternator power increases with RPM, the voltage generated by a magnet passing a coil is proportional to the speed of the magnet passing the coil. After that, as Reep points out, it gets more complicated. Overall, my experience has been a linear relationship between power & speed till inductive effects of the coils call a stop to the show. A fully charged lead acid should be near to 12.7V. When your bike is running, anytime the measured voltage at the battery terminals is at or below this value, your charging system is at its max output for what you're doing at the time. It generally tries to maintain a voltage just over 14V at the battery during operation, to keep the battery charged. The battery is there to start the bike & emergencies. If you are draining it down during regular riding, then (1) the charging system is broken (2) the battery is broken or (3) you are exceeding your charging system's capacity. Without setting up a stock alternator & regulator on a bench & deriving its operational curve, its impossible to say which of the three options above are occurring. If you really want to know what they're capable of, box them up & send them to me. I will RPM test them for you. | ||
| P_squared |
Blake, If I were to wake up 1 day w/ "custodial" status on this site, it'd only be a matter of time until that privilege was revoked due to my irregular visits here! lol Having said that, that is 1 heck of nice compliment! (Or at least I'm gonna take it that way!) MUCHOS GRACIAS to you and all the other custodians who do a fine & wonderful job here! If it weren't for this site, I'd STILL be scratchin my bald head out in the garage late at night! | ||
| P_squared |
btw, i'm VERY interested in what comes out w/ Mike's bike, since I'm set to take delivery at the end of this month. TRUST ME when I say I want a good bike with no major problems, ergo the reason I've been "monitoring" the 1125R threads. | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks guys I will not be making any more of those trips I just had to test my helmet. Thanks Benm if I take it out it will be to replace a bad one or to get it hoped up. I am sure the charging system is a close call running my heated jacket and I was keeping the rpms low to see what would happen over time and the battery charged itself a little Next test I think I will try the liner and high beams and see what happens. when I do this I will be riding in higher rpms like the motor is designed to. I will see what this test will do and then I will swap batteries and do the test over to see if it works the same. Not sure if I got a bad battery that came with the bike. so now I know what a good battery does so I will see if the battery that came with the bike works the same. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
I went for a short ride with a couple of stops no heated gear and the battery was lower than when I left. when testing for voltage is it normal for it to be fluctuating from mid thirteens to low fourteens and hard to see what it is because it is jumping up and down fast while the rpms are over 3000. also I forgot that the other day as I increased rpms and the voltage was dropping as I increased rpms. I think I am seeing erratic behavior of the charging system. can any one explain to me if this is right or weird. I also ask to be patient with me I am very forgetful and I should carry a note book to write this stuff down. I will make a note of that right now so I can keep track of what is going on and the conditions. Mike | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Mike, just curious but is your battery the original one or did you get a new one as you said you were going to do? Charging system "seems" OK if you are seeing around 14v. while running. Reepicheep? Amperage into the battery, I believe, is still the key to charging, recharging and keeping up with the demands while running. At least as much in as out. Still, I do not think it would be sufficient if even a single cell is dead or faulty. Sad but we cannot check each cell with sealed batteries. Just go by the total and if we see 12v.+ we assume all cells fine; but maybe not. Maybe Reep can help with Ohm's law and how amperage relates to voltage readings. Bob | ||
| Reepicheep |
Ohms law won't work for batteries... they are a big fussy chemical experiment. Fluctuating voltage would make me suspect a battery, especially if it really was "all over the place". If it was going between two different fairly stable voltages, then it could be stator or VR as well. But all over the map? Battery would be my next guess. If I were you at this point Mike, I would: 1) Get a helper or two, this is a 5 hand job. 2) Get the bike started with a jumper cable shorting the + battery terminal to the + (red) bike lead. 3) ONLY AFTER IT IS RUNNING*** I would take my meter, set up to measure amps, and alligator clip it to the positive lead of the battery and the positive lead to the bike. At this point, your jumper cable is still hooked up as well, so you will measure little to no current. 4) Now, after you are sure the meter measuring current is all set up and inline, and the bike is still idling, I would disconnect the jumper cable from positive. Now, all current going to (or from) the battery is being measured. Now you can see if current is going in or out, see if turning on heated bits and lights one at a time pushes it negative and at what RPMs. A bad battery won't "accept current", so not getting current does not answer the whole question, but it can sure rule a lot out. | ||
| Baggermike |
P squared do not let my problems keep you from buying one it is an awesome bike. I am probably like one percent of 1125R riders that bought this bike for the way I ride. I wanted a sport tourer and wanted good power and handling and I liked the ulysses but was to tall and wanted allot more power so I can drag race and do track days also. I want a heated jacket so when I am in the mountains I do not have to pack allot of clothes and the jacket will cover a wide range of temperatures. with an electric heated jacket it replaces the layering of clothes you have to carry, and with this jacket over a long sleeve t shirt is all I need under a riding suit in any temperature. it packs small so when it is 90 out it is packed away but a night in the mountains it can drop down to the forties and then all I need to be comfortable is the heated jacket liner. I have to carry allot of gear, first aid kit, tire kit, tools, toiletries, etc so I have to pack light and space is a premium on this bike. So far I have chase harper saddlebag and a tail bag, and they match and look good on the bike but are small. All that is left is maybe a tank bag and back pack but not sure I would like a back pack, and finding a matching tank bag that fits and will match the rest of my gear and look good is not easy. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
Bob the battery is almost new, it was bought in june and I figured I would see how it does then replace it with my battery and see how that does. I want an odessey battery but the size is not the same and will have to modify the bike to fit it. Right now I am going to put my battery back in and then see if there is a difference. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks Guys I just got done switching batteries so now the one that came with the bike is in there, and now will see what happens. Till then Thanks. Mike | ||
| P_squared |
Mike, No worries. The reasons you bought the bike vs. the reasons I'm buyin the bike are not the same. Besides, I'm in TX, so I don't see me trying to pull 90+ watts for gear while I'm riding. What I'm concerned with & what I want to be sure about is: 1) If you have/had a legitimate problem, what were the symptoms & resolution? 2) If this is/was a larger problem than your bike, e.g. the entire model year, does the factory know the cause & have a plan to fix? I'm good with putting a battery tender on every night, so that's not an issue. I just want to be sure I'm aware, forewarned & forearmed of any electrical "gremlins" that may be coming to meet me in less than a month, and that I have a means (aka "inside knowledge" courtesy of this site) to meet them head on, if it comes to that. :-) | ||
| Doerman |
Hi P-Squared I am not convinced that the majority of the 1125Rs out there are running around w/o problems. Mine is (with 3700 miles). And I was at an open house on Saturday where I met a few other locals (SoCal) 1125R owners. Most of them had not heard of BadWeB and none were complaining about their bikes that I heard Cheers.. Asbjorn | ||
| Benm2 |
That's disturbing. It might indicate a rapidly fluctuating load, like a regulator problem or a short somewhere. I'd try Reep's current load test, but be careful. The starter will pull over 100 Amps to get the bike running, so make sure your jumper is up to the task. Use an automotive-grade set of cables, you'll only need one lead anyway. Also, be careful with the testing for max amps. If you're using a multimeter, check what the meter is rated for in Amps for current measurement. (mine is rated for 20A) Depending on what's going on, you may be able to exceed that value going into or out of the battery. It should have some internal protection, but can't say for sure. Right after starting, the battery may be in position to take alot of current in (just been discharged, and may already be low), so watch the meter carefully. Don't blip the throttle right up to redline. | ||
| Azxb9r |
If you want to check the amperage output or load, the safest way is with an inductive amp probe. Rapidly fluctuating voltage is not normal. Among the things that can cause this kind of grief, a bad ground could also be the culprit. | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks Reepicheep butt I do not have any extra hands, I do have a volt meter and a car dash mounted amp meter that is rated to 60 amps. I put back the original batter and will see what happens now with this battery. I am confused, I am trying to learn everything and it is not easy for me to do so. I know bringing it to the shop it is only going to be sitting there and I will be with out it. it sat for over 3 weeks and came back with scratches and only a fuel pump replaced. I am getting frustrated, I will check the ground and check every thing again with the battery that I just swapped, if I get the same results I am going to have to bring it in, I do not want to screw something up and void the warranty. hopefully things will go good, but I thought it was going good then messed up, it was almost like with the heated jacket it did good then with out it voltage dropped off when it should not have? I will sleep on it and test, test, test, and test some more. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
Reepicheep are you talking about making two loops one with the battery and one with the amp meter. then take the battery loop out so the bike would be running with no battery and supplying power from the positive cable to the positive amp meter post and then from the amp meter negative post to the negative wire or frame? so the bike will run with out the battery and I can measure amps going threw amp meter, and the battery would just be used to get the bike running then disconnect it and the bike will stay running? I think I understand but want to make sure. let me know if I am right. I plan on going on a ride again in the morning and see if I get the same results, I have a running volt meter so I can see what is going on as I ride. I started out with 4 green and one amber and as I rode and came to stops it would not recover as fast this is how I could tell the system was slowly putting out less watts or amps or volt. I probably be having nightmares tonight with electrical gremlins chasing me. Mike | ||
| Zac4mac |
Mike, from what you said about the voltage, fluctuating from 13-14 could mean one of two things: 1) sensitivity of the 7-9 segment LED voltmeter 2) a loose ground Not really much else, unless your VR has tubes in it  Z |
