| Author | Message | ||
     Baggermike |
Blake not sure yet I did have a bad voltage regulator but after it was replaced I got home with an almost dead battery. I read a bad voltage regulator can harm a battery so I have a new battery in the bike and doing test. one problem that seems like I might have but have not been able to test for is a bad stator. Buell sent a team to florida to work on a bike, it seemed that as the bike was ridden for a while the voltage amps would drop off as the engine got hot. I have not been able to go for a long ride to see if this is the problem. The bike drained after they put in the new voltage regulator and I rode home using 120 watts which is 50 watts more than high beams on. The voltage regulator could have hurt the battery or I could have the same problem that the guy in Florida had and you can read his post. I have more testing to do before I can say everything is fine I am just using to much heated gear. I have a bad battery. I have a bad charging system which will require riding for a couple of hours on the highway. This is New England and just got the bike back last week and my dealership is 120 miles away and is when I got home with a dead battery. Right now I do not know which it is and need to do more test. I have posted all the test I have done so far. But I have not gone for a 120 mile ride with the new battery. I will post what I find out and swap batteries if I come to the conclusion that it is the battery that got hurt by the bad voltage regulator. I still have much testing to do to find out what it is that was running the battery down. Also everyone is talking volts and not amps, I have an amp meter that I have not hooked up. I read some were that I can put it between the negitive post and the frame and it will tell me amps being put out. the other way of hooking it up I did not feel safe doing and felt I could cause more problems if done wrong but if it is true I can do it between the negitive post then that would work with out hurting anything. Mike | ||
| Cataract2 |
You know, I'm starting to wonder if it may be the batteries themselves again. What if the batteries when brand new don't hold a charge as well, but after being worked a bit a few times they start to? | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I think we need some real data before we declare the 1125R inherently flawed as a result of anecdotal evidence. . . Inherently flawed is too strong and the fact that there are some bikes without electrical problems supports that the system will perform as designed. If I alluded to that, I recant the statement. Due to the fact the problem seems random, a bad component in the electrical system seems more plausible. I hope to recreate the problem on Sunday. | ||
| Baggermike |
I can say this, I had a friend in a wheel chair and needed marine batteries for his chair, the man told us to run the batteries down then recharge them. This does do something to the batteries and extends there life and think it is like cleaning the plates or something? Was many years ago so not sure but do remember him telling us this and have done this with my batteries. I did not on the R, I did not have the chance, it discharged on its own. That could explain the batteries coming back to life. Mike | ||
| Reepicheep |
NiCad batteries need to be periodically fully discharged to operate well. NiMh batteries don't care (much). Nor do LiIon. Lead Acid batteries are to some degree harmed by a full discharge. Your bike battery is a Lead Acid. | ||
| Baggermike |
Reepicheep what would be the marine batteries back in the late 70's, be, this is when I picked them up for my friend and was told that. I am not an electrical genius and just starting to understand the charging system. I need help doing this so I know which way to go. I have done test and posted results but do not know if my battery was bad or not. I got my bike back last week threw in a new battery and been doing test thence then. I need to take a long ride when the weather gets better. a foot of snow is coming my way so I will take the battery tender off the bike and see how it does holding its own. Might be a while before I get to ride it and this will be a good time to see if the battery discharges while on the bike. I think it is one of two things, the battery that I had got hurt by the bad voltage regulator. or the charging system loses charging power on long rides. I will keep testing to figure this out which it is, and with the help of you guys we can all understand the charging system better. Mike | ||
| Spectrum |
My personal situation is I feel I have a problem with my charging system and Buell seems intent on denying there's a problem. I don't know if there's a pervasive problem or not, but I contend my bike is broke. To Blake's point in his earlier post, lets be fact based. So I'm going to try and compile what facts that I know. 1. There are 1125R's out there that do not have charging systems problems. This even running accessories and high beams in all kinds of situations. 2. There are also some bikes that have had charging systems problems. 3. We have seen batteries fail that seem to operate normally without accessories, but fail with accessories. Probably system over load! 4. There is at least one (mine) that has drained the battery without any accessories or running high beams. 5. The voltage has been observed to drop (slightly) at higher operating temperatures even on bikes without charging system problems. 6. We do not know what the ratios are for failure rates. Conclusion: The bike is too new and there is not information yet to say if there is an inherent problem. In other words there is not enough data at this point to support the claim that there is pervasive charging system design flaw. On the other hand there are a number of customers who have experienced charging system problems and this warrants prudent investigation and tracking of the situation by BMC. My concern is how BMC is handling my situation. My bike has drained the battery dead twice. Both times after setting in stop-n-go traffic for 15 to 20 mins. I have no accessories on the bike and have never run with the high beams on. I can reproduce and demonstrate a net drain situation consistently by getting the coolant temperature to 185 degrees or higher and measure the voltage at the battery during idle (less than 12.5 volts). At 200 degrees it's less than 12 volts. Here's my problem. When the dealer techs took this information to Buell. There response was: "This is normal. The bike will experience a .4 volt drop between cold and normal operating temperatures." they also told me; "Using accessories such as heated grips or running with the high beams on may cause a net drain situation under certain scenarios." In other words Buell's position is (my interpretation) the bike is working as designed and any problems I've experienced are operator induced. I contend that there appears to be an an attempt to deny the facts and ignore the problem. 1. The bike ships with not 1, but 2 accessories plugs. 2. Heated grips are a factory option. 3. The Bike is designed to operate with both high and low beams on at the same time. 4. Buell has admitted that there is a .4 voltage drop is normal. If the bike is working as designed then why can you not: 1. Run factory options such as heated grips and high beams on. 2. Operate the bike in stop-n-go traffic for short periods of time (15-20mins) In my opinion both of these should be considered normal operating conditions and an indication the bike is not working as designed. Yet Buell denies there is a problem and claims the bike is operating as designed. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Spectrum 1. there is only one accessory plug, if you install the grip kit, you still have an open plug because the grip harness has one. 2, 3 - OK 4 - I haven't heard or read that. My personal experience is a .4V difference between 160˚ and 200˚, UNLOADED(lights fuse pulled) Loaded, or running both Hi and Lo beams, I measured 1.2 V drop from 160 - 200˚ at 2000 rpm but less than .2V drop above 4000 rpm for the same temp change. Check your battery connections and the frame ground at the base of the seat-undertray. Ensure your regulator is tightly mounted to the heatsink plate on the aluminum subframe. If all that checks out, think about trying one of these.(the little guy under the ODIS) Kuryakyn LED Voltmeter http://www.customdynamics.com/LED_battery_gauge.htm  Z (Message edited by zac4mac on March 01, 2008) | ||
| Baggermike |
Hi Spectrum I to am frustrated with Buell C S, they told me what do you expect from a race bike. Now all the advertising I read said nothing about it being a race bike and said built for the rider on down not the racer on down. Also Buell sent a team to Florida to work on one of the guys bike, He is on here so you can go back and read what the buell team did. I know from reading His posts that he had a bad stator and as the Motor got hot the voltage dropped off and the Buell techs logged over 100 miles on his bike and replaced his stator. Again Buell C S would not even acknowledge this. I think this Might be my problem, and will have to take it for a long ride to see if it is. I think everyone is forgetting amps, and watts, the charging system runs by volts, amps, and watts. You can have good volts but if the charging system is not putting out the watts and amps then there is a problem. I would like to know if I hook a amp meter between the negative post, and frame, will it measure the amps correctly? There are other ways to hook it up but I feel that I would be taking a chance of hurting the bike. There is a gauge for motorcycles that measures both volts and amps and this would be good to have and cost 200.00. I do not have extra money to buy this now, I have just bought a volt meter and I have the amp meter that I can install, plus a portable volt meter for testing at the battery. I think that I should be able to figure this out in time, and will take riding the bike allot which is not easy at this time of year. I have come to these conclusions for my bike. 1 - the bike just has a weak charging system and is why they made the accessory outlet shut off if the battery gets low. I can not see Why else Buell would have made the accessory shut off when the battery get low unless they knew the bike has a weak charging system. 2 - the voltage regulator that was bad hurt my battery. 3 - the stator as it heats up loses its power to keep the battery charged. I know I will find the answer, it just will take time and is something buell should be doing, after all they did send a team to Florida for a few days to work on this guys bike and replaced his stator and took lots of notes on there tests and this is a fact, not a myth. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
Hey Guys anyone thinking of getting a shift light and voltage meter should talk to Al at American sport bike he has the new Eclip shift light that also functions as a volt meter and does a few other things. I bought one when I found out that it would be good to have a voltage meter and I knew I would get a shift light so I killed two birds with one stone by buying this. Price is 160,00, the shift light I was going to get went for 115.00 and I think the Kuryakyn volt meter that I think cost 35.00 so that would have came to 150.00 for the two, and now got both together. The shift light can be found at www.ecliptech.com.au and now Al at American sport bike carries them. Mike | ||
| Spectrum |
Zack - I and the dealer have checked all the electric connections and fittings are secure. As for the 2nd accessory outlet, I was refereeing to the one mounted to the battery. You may tell me this is intended as a battery tender connection and I will accept that and in that case yes, it only has 1 accessory outlet. The .4 volt drop was a quote from Buell when the dealer discussed my problem with them. I already have the Kuryakyn LED Voltmeter mounted. At this point it's a must have to manage the charging systems situation and insure I don't get stranded with a dead battery. | ||
| Baggermike |
I have studied this online and is hard for me to figure out and understand but think this will help me and you guys. Volts x amps = watts so by knowing that the system is putting out 32 watts as designed it would result in these figures. 11 Volts x 32 amps = 352 watts. 12 x 32 = 384 watts. 13 x 32 = 416 watts. 14 x 32 = 448 watts. we have a 3 phase 32 amp system that put out 432 watts max. voltage = pressure. Amps = flow. watts = quantity. Volts x amps equal watts. So with a volt meter and amp meter you can figure out watts. Now we need to know what the bike uses in watts with everything running and with out anything else hooked up to it. This is the question I can not get an answer for. We need to know what the bike uses in watts with every thing on. This info would tell me what the bike can handle in accessories if any, or tell me it will run down the battery with the high beams on. With my volt meter and amp meter I can see what the bike is putting out in watts at different rpms buy knowing the volts and amps. Also will let me know if the charging system is working properly Running the bike with a volt meter is good but does not tell the whole story. We need to know amps at different rpms. IF the amp meter works between the negative battery post and frame I can get that info, I also would see the amps at different rpms which is important to know. Can anyone find out how much watts the bike uses with every thing on. I have a program that will calculate everything that takes watts and come out with how much watts are left over if any. Mike | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Spectrum, I agree it is quite ironic that the 1125r has an accessory plug and a factory heated grip kit, yet some bikes can't even handle high beams or worse. It's not possible to tell the scope of the problem and realistically it's up to BMC to step up to the plate. We stepped up with a large chunk of change and Buell needs to rectify this and all of other quirks of this first year bike. My service mgr., who spoke directly to BMC, feels that Buell knows there is an electrical problem with a large number of bikes and is working on the issue. | ||
| Dtx |
Beggermike said - I to am frustrated with Buell C S, they told me what do you expect from a race bike. I had to call Buell CS once and was talking to a lady about a problem I was having. (Think it had to do with the firebolt headlights). Anyway, somewhere in the conversation I must have mentioned the BadWeb and and she just started laughing at me! I'll reserve judgment on Buell CS until I have to use them again. I'll give them one more shot until I say what I really think about them. (Message edited by dtx on March 01, 2008) (Message edited by dtx on March 01, 2008) | ||
| Baggermike |
I just made up my mind to get this setup and is the Kison charge Guard at the price of 180.00 at www.customdynamics.com. 5 products in one. volt meter. ammeter. ambient temperature. battery charger. ice alert. size 2.15 x 2.30. you can get the display only for 136.00 and does not include the charger. I think it would fit right were Zack has his volt meter. Mike | ||
| Ccryder |
Mike: For that price it also includes a battery charger. Neil S. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Mike, good summary. You can't really measure watts, you have to derive it. Watts is also: V squared over R... which is (Volts * Volts) / Resistance Or Amps squared times Resistance... which is (Amps * Amps) * Resistance. This is all derivable from Ohms Law (V=I*R). So in theory, you can turn on all your gear, disconnect the battery, and put an ohm meter across the battery terminals and measure resistance. The problem is that not everything on the bike will "turn on" until you get above a particular voltage (anything with a diode for example, or things that are switched by a relay). It will probably measure the resistance of your passive heated gear correctly though... but probably not if you have a variable temperatue controller on it. So you might be able to work your way up from there. The next thing would be to put the meter inline with the battery positive terminal and set to measure amps and start turning things on (bike off) and see how the current starts climbing. The problem (as you already stated) is that amps burn... and few meters are going to be able to reach the 20 or 30 amp range without going up in smoke... And 30 amps is "only" 360 watts. Another approach that I have thought about is getting a long piece of wire (or just using an extension cord) and wiring that in between the battery and the bike. Copper wire has a "fixed" resistance per foot of length, so you could put a known load across it (300 watt halogen bulb?) and measure the voltage drop versus current consumption, and determine the characteristic resistance of the wire. Then you can hook that same wire up to your current load, look at the voltage drop across just that cord, and back your way into the current flow. It would look like a McGuiver episode, but I bet you could get within 10% that way. You would probably want to start with a charged battery and disconnect the stator, so you know you are measuring *all* current being consumed. | ||
| Baggermike |
yes Reepicheep I have the instructions for doing this, but both ways are with the hot wires and gives a two ways of doing this. Both ways are with the positive current and do not want to mess around with running hot wires all the way to the gauge and then back to the battery. the other way is to go from the starter if it has that type of system that the big wire goes to the starter and then a smaller wire goes to the bike. either way I feel it is asking for trouble, if one of the wires were to short or melt then short, I do not want to take a chance like this. I read and am thinking it make thence to do this to the negative side of the battery and run a wire from the negative post to the gauge then run a wire back to the negative wire. I do not know for sure if this would work but if something was to short it would not cause a problem. I will try it if I do not buy the Kisen charge guard which the 180 price comes with a smart battery charger or for 136 just the gauge. Mike | ||
| Sharkytattoo |
Just curious ... did anyone check the grounds? | ||
| Baggermike |
I did not yet. I would have thought the dealership did. I will when I get a chance and will have to follow the wire to find were it is. I have a load chart that was given to me by one of you guys. if I do not change any of the info that was given to me I come out with this. low beams with heated jacket + 41 watts left over. high beams on with low and jacket liner - 29 watts. if I had what every part of the bike eats for wattage I can figure out better what is left over for wattage. fans, ecm, injectors, fuel pump, running lights. head lights, cooling fans, etc. I can put it into this program and it will come out to + or - wattage left over. I think if someone has the manual to like a 07 bike can give me most of the info I need. | ||
| Unibear12r |
Mike note that... With a total 432 watt output that.. At 32 amps the "best" voltage the alternator can put out is 13.5v. With internal losses due to internal resistance it might very well be lower. You also have a lot of losses through the wires and connections in these "low voltage" to "high current" type automotive systems. One of the reasons the automotive industry has considered jumping up to 36 or 48 volts is to drop the current levels and the resulting line losses. You cannot add up the wattages and expect to get that close to the rated maximum like you are trying to do. I doubt you will ever be able to do much more than run the bike's systems, a couple of low power items like a GPS, and the heated grips. That is likely all this bike was designed to do with a light sportbike electrical system that is a new design that is not modeled after the old heavy underrated Harley systems like the XB's had. The large highway bikes designed to run that much extra equipment come with about 50% or more extra power above that of the 1125 (and a larger amount of weight in the charging system). (Message edited by unibear12r on March 01, 2008) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Right Mike, I wasn't thinking permanent installation. I would rig it up to debug and understand the problem, then put it back to stock. Once you have a good baseline and working setup, then a voltmeter is all you need to understand what is happening. One easy way I just thought of to do it! (Forehead slap).... 1) Start with a *mostly* discharged battery. I think the service manual tells you what voltage represents what percentage of charge for the battery, or you could do a few tests and check where the battery is darn near dead, but can still barely get the bike turned over. Just leave it sit with the lights on for an hour or so. 2) Get the bike started and idling. For at least the next half hour, the bike will be delivering all excess power to the battery. 3) ***Carefully*** get your amp meter wired inline in series between the positive terminal and the battery. You want to do this without "breaking" the circuit completely while you do it, otherwise the bike will probably stall. That should be a reasonable amount of current for a decent meter to be able to read, and it will more or less tell you how much "extra" current is flowing on your bike at any given time (and in fact the direction the current is flowing). I would guess it would take the battery at least half an hour to charge back up, so you would have plenty of time to futz with different loads and RPMS and watch the current increase or change direction. Just make sure you don't hit the starter like that... the surge of current for the starter motor will probably blow a fuse (if you are lucky) or blow up your meter (if not). | ||
| Unibear12r |
If the automotive electrical designers follow the same rules as in other electrical industries then that 432 watt alternator was never intended to serve any loads greater than 350 watts or 80% of rated load. | ||
| Baggermike |
If I hook up the volt meter it is going to be permanent. the charge guard does both, it reads volts and amps, and is marketed for bikes and is a nice little unit that as ambient air temp and ice alert and for 180.00 come with a smart charger and I could use another charger. I have a good volt meter and I have an auto ammeter which looks cool so I probably get around to installing it. A bikes charging system is not like a car, you can remove the battery in a car and it will still run, bikes are not like this and run off the batteries, then the charging system refills the battery. I am still hoping that the ammeter will work connected to the negative post between the post and the frame. I think it can because I read that it could, but I do not always believe in what I read. can anyone tell me that it would work between the negative post on the battery and then to the frame so the wire that is now connected would be connected to the ammeter and the ammeter would be connected to the negative post. Mike | ||
| Ccryder |
Mike: If you look at the Kisan site (http://www.kisantech.com/brochures/cg-inst-manual. pdf) it will show how this device is wired. Neil S. | ||
| Baggermike |
Hey Neil thanks, I like how the kisen is hooked up and is similar to the way I was thinking of hooking up the ammeter I have. I just got in trying to find a nice place to install my ammeter and can not find a good place to mount it but will try again tomorrow. if not I could use another charger and like the way the Kisan system is hooked up, and now that I have seen how it is hooked up I now I have to think if I can get the ammeter I have mounted in a good place, or buy this Charge guard with charger that I know will mount right were Zack mounted his Kuryakyn volt meter. Mike | ||
| Ccryder |
Mike: Unless you have the hardware in their shunt and under that black cap, I would only hook up your dedicated amp meter in series with the positive lead. Please remember that my degree is in mechanical not electrical engineering. My previous amp meter installation was done on a 1974 750 Ducati GT. That amp meter was acquired from a Norton (IIRC). I have slept once or twice since then and technology may have changed, a little  . Oh no, now I've spilled the beans on my age, in 74' I had already been riding 8 years! (where is my Greecian formula when I need it?????) Neil S. | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks Neil I been thinking and I am not installing the one I have and will get the kisan unit. I know that most motorcycle break downs are the result of electrical problems and the less things you have that can go wrong the better. this is why I am not hooking up the amp meter that I have, I also have a volt meter hooked up and think that might just be enough. on the highway it was showing 13+ volts with my heated jacket liner and when I turned on the high beams it dropped down to 12+ volts. All I need is my jacket liner and gloves and it is fine riding at a pace with my jacket liner that is rated at 90 watts, I could go down to a 60 watt liner then ad the gloves and I am back at 90 watts. Anyway I think buell is working on the problem and knows there is one. the volt meter will let me know if the bike is working like it should or if there is something wrong, I still have many test to do and this week it warming up so should get them all done, then I will know if I have a problem. Mike | ||
| Zac4mac |
All an Ammeter is , is a voltmeter reading the drop across a shunt resistor. The shunt is usually a bar, around .1 Ohm. Basically what Bill was describing with his long wire. You can only measure voltage or resistance directly, everything else is derived. It shouldn't matter which lead you connect an Ammeter to, as long as you get the polarity right. Jerkoff's, I mean Kirchoff's law says so. Z | ||
| Ccryder |
Z Thanks for clearing up the amp meter thingy. Now onto Flux capacitors and Star drives. See a little knowledge can be dangerous ;+} Neil S. Dreaming of 25r's dancing around the curves................... |
