| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
"There is definitely an issue with the electrical system. I don't see how that can be debated." Fresno, Consider this a friendly reprimand from a friend who is looking out for you and for our little community here. Here, have a beer first, this may tend to bruise a delicate ego, but I'm counting on you to have mucho macho hardy ego.  This is very simple. <burrrp> Dude, amigo, compadre... <gulp-gulp-gulp...> another beer for me and my friend, please You don't know what you are talking about, your information is not credible and your assertions are false. In such cases, it is usually best to remain silent, yes? Please?  Here, have another beer amigo.  "I was mistaken about the 7,000 RPM issue...PER THE COMPANY the bike will adequately hold a charge with running high beams with RPM as low as 2,500. I don't know if this is only for constant RPMs, or takes stop and gos into account. I don't have enough personal experience to confirm or deny this, so take it for what it's worth...." It is good to see that you are now willing to question the validity of what you are passing on publicly as fact, and thank you for the correction to the false information that you previously posted. The truth is that the 1125R charging system as engineered is perfectly adequate for its intended purpose and will keep the battery charged in any likely operational scenario. If you would like to dispute that, then you'll need to provide some very convincing hard technical evidence to do so. I'm all ears. Hearsay is not convincing and never rises to the level of hard technical evidence. More beer? All, I've been offline for much of the past five weeks, unable to monitor the pulse and integrity of the place as much as I'd like. I've just read this entire thread. From it I am able to glean that apparently a few 1125R owners have experienced trouble with dead batteries, one from a faulty generator, another due to a loose ground connection, possibly other(s) due to faulty batteries. Is that about correct? Others like Zac have experienced and now even scrutinized and measured the proper operation of their 1125R charging system. Is that correct? What I am left wondering is why all the continued concern about the charging system? By all accounts here and under quite rigorous scrutiny, in cases where all charging system components are operating and connected properly, the system proves to be functioning well, yes? Thank you Zac for your reasoned systematic debunking of the unsupported claims of some folks here. How refreshing! You rock man! Can you imagine, as someone has already postulated above, that maybe a drop in charging system voltage output is part of the charging system's advanced operating mode to provide best longevity for the battery? Does that make any sense? I'm ignoratn of the latest charging system schemes, so I don't know. Nah, couldn't be, could it? It's much more fun to imagine that the engineers are incompetent? Well if you like being that way. I don't.  I happen to know a few of the engineers though. They are highly competent. It fries my brain that some folks, ignorant concerning the issues involved (meaning not familiar with electronics or charging systems), can be so willing and eager to make completely unsupported assertions pointing to what would amount to gross incompetence on the part of the engineers who designed the 1125R charging system. It's that kind of ridiculous and irresponsible rumor-mongering that gives the internet a bad name. We sure don't want it on BadWeB. Do we? I can state as fact the following: The 1125R charging system will maintain proper charge in any likely operational scenario. If you are sitting at a stop or are in stop-and-go traffic for an extended time, it might not be a bad idea to turn off your high beams. Who the #@$% sits in stop-and-go traffic for extended time running the high beams? Wouldn't that be extremely inconsiderate of the folks in front of you and of any oncoming traffic? But hey, let's see if we can invent some more contrived scenarios in order to make up a non-existant problem so we can get all dramatic and indignant about nothing.  Good grief! Sarcasm can be fun. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) The voltage regulator is very much tied to a very effective, highly conductive heat sink. There is no need for any additional heat extraction capactiy for the voltage regulator. Imagining that there is based upon the fact that the voltage regulator gets hot to the touch is, well, goofy. Don't be goofy. That's my job, and I take it seriously! <huyuck-huyuck-ahuh> This will sound harsh; is it the cold hard truth intended to help preserve/regain the integrity of technical discussions here; it's not meant as any kind of personal attack. It is indesputable that only one lacking any technical common sense whatsoever could believe that the 1125R charging system was engineered such that the engine must run at 7,000 RPM + to maintain charge on the battery. In my opinion, if you are willing to believe that kind of nonsense, you have ZERO business making any kind of statement concerning anything technical, ever. No big deal, just please recognize your own technical limitations. I'll ride with and have a beer with you anytime. I like non-technical folks a lot. I married one! However, if you ever see fit to make another goofy ignorant technical assertion, I'll not hesitate to obnoxiously laugh out loud at you and berate and ridicule you in public. No actual stone throwing, just good natured boisturous ridicule. You know, the kind that honorable men can good naturedly accept with a grin and even join in with a little humble self-deprecation? I'll try not to spill my beer while doing so. ;) Spilling beer, now that is worthy of some real serious ridicule!  Seriously though, when we're ignorant of a technical issue, may we please try to contribute via questions, more than declarations? You know, more like saying "I think I understood from so-and-so who got it from what's-his-face that blah-bah-de-blah-blah; does that make any sense?" Let's RIDE! Ride, lean, smile, live! Thanks all for such an informative and in the end conclusive discussion! We ROCK! | ||
| Zac4mac |
A generator puts out a fairly constant current(Amps) at any speed, but higher Volts as rpms increase. An alternator puts out a constant Voltage, but Current increases as rpms do. The behavior you describe would point to an alternator. At idle speed, you are making very little charging current, like a trickle charge and Voltage is at or near Max on a fully charged battery. As rpms increase, so does the current output and the ECM sees an "overcharge" condition and throttles back the output to the battery and you see a voltage drop. This is open to anyone more knowledgeable than myself for rebuttal... Zack | ||
| Ccryder |
Welcome back Mr. Blake: Good to "see" you around. Heck running with the Hi beam is SOP during the day "Better to see you with my Dear!". Mike: A charging system is complicated. Depending on the state of charge of the battery, ambient temp and, the engine rpm's will depend on if the voltage goes up, down or stays the same. Time2Work Neil S. | ||
| Court |
>>>>so take it for what it's worth...." I did. I scrolled on to the Tale section. There are a couple things being dealt with on the 1125R. If you own one, I'd consider you to take advise from the internet . . . Well . . .
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| Baggermike |
Blake I am not making any assertions, I am trying to learn how the charging system works and if I need to send the stator, rotor and voltage regulator out to be hopped up so I can ride with a heated jacket and glove liners that consume 120 watts, I bought the bike with the understand that this bike was suppose to be made for the rider on down. I believe a true rider is someone who rides year round in any weather no matter how cold or hot it is. I had expected that the bike I was buying had allot of juice when I looked at the figures for the charging system, but I did not know or think about that a fuell injection bike with all the power needed to operate the extra things like cooling fans that the bike uses allot of power on its own. I have read Few people really understand how the charging system works, and I am someone who know very little so I am posting my info I find out as I do test so I can learn how the charging system works and if I need to adjust my riding or gear. I am trying to figure out what I can use for heated gear on this bike with out ending up with a dead bike, also I now know the bike is not design with running heated gear and was told by Buell techs that the bike will drain the battery with the high beams on in traffic, not that I would do that. I just got off the phone with the dealership tech and he could not explain what zack did explain. Thanks Zack that makes thence. I am on these forums to learn what I do not know and share what I do know. I have grown up riding bikes that had carbs and air cooled motors, and never even thought of heated gear, but now I am getting old and the blood does not flow like it use to and heated gear for me is for safety so I can consentrait on riding and not how cold I am. I want a sport tourer and I want to carry the least amount of things and a heated jacket liner that rolls up small will save lots of space to carry other things, they tell you to wear of carry lots of layers of clothing so you can ride in 90 degree days that can turn into 40 degree nights, a heated jacket liner cuts down on the clothing you need to carry for touring. I never said I knew anything about charging systems and just report what I find from test or what I have been told by a tech that is suppose to know what he is talking about, I post what I know and hope for someone to make thence of this and let me know how to understand what the bike is doing, and what I need to do to the bike so I can be able to ride any were at anytime in any weather. I just want the bike to be able to do this and need to know that the bike is running like it is suppose to and if it is then I need to know if I can send out the charging system out to be hopped up or maybe Buell will come out with an upgraded system which is a rummer. Mike | ||
| Spectrum |
Well here's some facts for you. My bike is currently at the dealership and has been there all week. I'm one of those that had a dead battery (twice). There are no loose connections and the battery is not faulty (tested by the dealership). The tech has confirmed through testing there is a problem with the charging system that is leading to battery drain while the bike is running. The charging system operates correctly at times and in correctly at times. They can consistently reproduce the failure. They are currently working with BMC to further diagnose the cause and don't have a fix yet. This is just one bike and there certainly is no conclusion as of yet. | ||
| Baggermike |
Court can you be more specific to the info you found and were I can find it. Mike | ||
| Blake |
"was told by Buell techs that the bike will drain the battery with the high beams on in traffic" Then in my opinion, your Buell techs are telling you baloney. I concede, as Neil points out that running during daytime with high beams is to be expected. How long would you have to sit in traffic idling with high beams and heated gear on in order to drain the battery to problematic levels? Anyone? I'm looking for facts here. Anyone? | ||
| Blake |
"They can consistently reproduce the failure." Then they should be able to diagnose the cause of it. | ||
| Blake |
Mike, From what you've posted here, I've gathered that you've had no issues running with heated gear. Am I mistaken? If not, then why all the concern? | ||
| Spatten1 |
Blake, might be on other threads, but Mike has had problems from the beginning running heated gear. He is a hard-core winter rider, so probably uses more power than many riders ever will. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Blake, how do you know what every 1125r owner is experiencing? Do you have an 1125r? There IS a problem with this bike--not everyone seems to be affected. All the information I have passed on thusfar came from lengthy conversations from my service manager. Coupled from what I experienced PERSONALLY, it seemed within the realm of possibility. Even a non-technical idiot like me, thought that the 7,000 RPM charging was extremely strange. It was a mis-communication from a conversation with my service manager. S-O-R-R-Y. Your absolute defense of the 1125r is alarming. BMC has acknowledged that there is an issue with this bike. How can you make the following assertion? The 1125R charging system will maintain proper charge in any likely operational scenario. Fact: I rode appx. 1 hour of freeway with a few stops thrown in. The next morning the bike was dead--completely drained battery that took 2.5 days on a battery tender to charge. Does this fall into your "likely operational scenario?" Basically, we all want this bike to be fixed and fixed properly. With all of the 1125rs having electrical issues, both big and small, you have tremendous audacity (blinders, maybe)saying this bike is problem-free. Maybe it's a loose ground wire, maybe it's something more significant. IT'S NOT MY JOB TO FIGURE THIS OUT, IT'S BMC'S JOB. Let's remember that. But go ahead and ridicule me. It doesn't take an electrical engineer to know that there is something wrong with many 1125r's. Maybe you need to drop $13.6K on one and see how you feel when you get stranded the first time? I love Buell. Except for the electrical system, I love the 1125r. I also expect it to run with the high beams on and not kill the battery. Or maybe this is not considered a "likely operational scenario?" | ||
| Zac4mac |
Harlan, I think Blake is saying that at this point, no systemic(engineering design) failures are indicated. As I've shown with mine, the charging system is more than adequate as designed. I put over 200 miles on mine, last Sunday, with High beams and heated grips and still the system charged the battery. That designed output may still be inadequate for someone like BaggerMike, that rides in such cold weather with heated gear. All my gear is passive but the grips. There will be vehicle specific problems with a few, nature of the beast for any new product. I'm done with lunch now and it's 60˚ outside. I'm gonna go ride Loretta for a while. Z | ||
| Baggermike |
Blake I have had or still have problems with my heated gear. Coming home from my dealership running my jacket liner and gloves equal to 120 watts riding almost the whole way highway at 4300 rpm no high beams on and got home with an almost dead battery and a voltage code. I have been just riding with my jacket liner now and is 90 watts which is only 20 more watts than high beams, and I have not been using my high beams. I am using a new battery now and testing everything with the new battery and then when I am done I will swap batteries and test again to see if it is the battery or the bike. I have yet to ride as far as my dealership which is the distance I traveled from the dealership to home and had the almost dead battery. I read on here that someone had there stator replaced because when the engine got hot the charging drops down, he lived in Florida I live in Mass so there is a temp difference. Now I just got my bike back last week so I have not had the chance to ride real far to see if this happens. I did have a bad voltage regulator that I read can hurt the battery and is why I am using a new battery. I called the tech at my dealership and told him my voltage drops as I increase the rpms and they want me to bring it by again, I have been taking lots of trips to the dealership for this problem and do not know if I still have this problem or if the battery was bad. Time will tell when I get a chance to ride up to my dealership that is 120 miles away and will be using my heated jacket and gloves to get there. I also just read that someone said it is a two phase system and I read in the owners manual it is a 3 phase system. Mike | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Understood Zac. I don't have any numbers that would indicate the problem. I am not that technically inclined, as Blake so kindly pointed out. When I say the Buell tech, I mean someone from Wisconsin--not the in house HD wrench that has been designated as the resident expert. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss what these Buell techs are telling my service manager. There is so much circumstantial evidence, including roughly 50% of 1125r owners that participated in the "electrical issues poll," that I can't believe anyone can state there isn't a problem. The question that we should be asking is WHAT is the problem not IF there is a problem. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
"was told by Buell techs that the bike will drain the battery with the high beams on in traffic" This is exactly what the buell tech (from Wisconsin) told my svc. magr. as well. I was told it stems from sub-2,500 RPM conditions that a rider gets when his bike is idling. I was also told that the battery runs at a deficit with high beams on and sub-2,500 RPM. No I did not test this, so consider it all hearsay. (Message edited by fresnobuell on February 28, 2008) | ||
| Baggermike |
I agree I was told that my bike was fine with all my heated gear hooked up to the bike. I did not ride home with all my heated gear just my jacket and gloves. I rode home 99% highway at 4300 rpms and my battery was almost dead when I got home. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
Zack when you were riding with your high beams on and heated grips what did the voltage meter read. Your high beams and grips come to 106 watts. My jacket liner comes to 90 watts. I was using less whats than you. I showed 13+ volts on the highway. slow rodes 12+ volts. stopped 11+ volts. Mike | ||
| Sheridan_bueller |
I have #220. It must have been made on a nice, sunny, Wednesday afternoon. I ran the battery completely flat one time, (left the key on). Hooked up the tender over night, hasn't been hooked up since. Flooded it 2 or 3 times and ran the battery low, jump started it each time, always run the high beams and (until the past few days) the heated grips. Mostly short trips, usually several starts each day and haven't had any charging issues or starting issues, other than the ones noted above. Oh, riding in the rain seems to blast the stop/tail light. (a nice deputy stopped me just to tell me one rainy night at about 2:30 AM) I feel bad for you that are having trouble. JJ | ||
| Zac4mac |
Mike, all I had last Sunday on the long ride into Wyoming was the little LED voltmeter. 277 miles and the meter showed both green LEDs on the whole time I was on the highway. When I was in town, it was either one green LED when idling for a while or 2 greens and the yellow(over charge) as i came down to idle from 4-5k rpm. In town(Cheyenne) only low-beams, but back out on the highway, hi-beams and grips on, 80mph and both green LEDs. When I got home, 12.7V on my Fluke DMM. Z | ||
| Baggermike |
Hi Zack so your volt meter was showing an over charge? I do not think that is good for the battery and you might need a new voltage regulator. I still got some more test to do and today is 15 degrees out so no work on the bike. maybe a ride but I can not test my helmet shaking at this tempature at high speed. I might have a body part freeze on me. Back in the late seventies it got down below zero for like two weeks. I could not ride with a visor and thought one eye was starting to freeze going to work. the temp showed -10 the coldest I have ridden anything in. I have heard of this happening to ice racers with there two inch spiked tires. Mike | ||
| Zac4mac |
Mike, All I've seen so far is one yellow LED, there are two. The last LED is red and it hasn't come on. From playing with Loretta in the garage during my testing, I'd say the one yellow means around 14 volts, probably 15 for the second and 16 volts for the red. The times the yellow LED has lit, it's usually flickering, not solid. I just went out and connected the Kuryakyn meter to a power supply and my Fluke. There are 9 LEDs, left to right - 2 red, 2 yellow, 2 green, 2 yellow and one red. The LED meter spans from 8 volts to 16 volts, each one roughly a volt, so one green is ~12V, 2 greens are 13 volts, etc. Sub-zero is too cold for me, rode to work a couple of weeks ago when it was 14˚ tho and it wasn't too bad. February is done, so I think the really cold weather is gone for this season. Supposed to be close to 70˚ today. Z | ||
| Baggermike |
Hey Zack the eclip shift light when in voltage mode goes from 9 volts to 15 volts 7 lights total 4 green 2 amber 1 red and if the red is flashing it is over 16 volts. My bike was running on the highway with 1 amber and 4 green which is 13+ volts and at slow speed 4 green which is 12+ volts and stopped 3 green which is 11+ volts. My charging system is not working the same as yours but my battery is fully charged now and need to go for another ride to see if there is a difference. I also got to go on a long ride to see if it drops down as the motor gets hot. Then I have to swap batteries and repeat all these test. I now know how to hook it up as a shift light but is to cold to do it today but think tomorrow will be warmer. Then I can let all you guys know how it works. I can tell you this it is bright but can be dimmed and has a photo sensor for dimming at night, plus other good features. Mike | ||
| Spectrum |
Zack - FYI flickering means you are just below the threshold for that LED. for example if the first green LED is flickering you are just below 12.5 volts. When mine was flickering, I read 12.3 and 12.4 at the battery with my volt meter, | ||
| Blake |
Thanks Zac for trying to explain the intent of my comments. You nailed it. Mike, I'm still not quite clear on your situation. Are you saying that you had a bad voltage regulator that likely caused the battery to drain when riding with heated gear but now, as far as you can tell, all seems to be working fine? Fresno, How long would you have to sit in traffic on an idling 1125R with high beams on in order to drain the battery to problematic levels? Do you know? Does anyone? I'm looking for facts here. Anyone? Fresno, got an answer for the above questions? Cause if you don't then your vague generalization is darn near meaningless. When in use, a flashlight, cell phone, radio, watch or any other battery powered device will--sit down, this may shock you--drain the batteries while in operation. My point being that simply declaring that a net battery drain condition exists when running an 1125R below 2500 rpm with the high beams on is not some kind of revelation of any kind of problem or necessarily anything with which we ought be concerned. For all we know, an 1125R at idle with the high beams on will run through an entire tank of fuel and still maintain plenty of battery capacity. If you know differently, then by all means bless us with your knowledge. If not, then I'd appreciate less indignant rhetoric and more thoughtful, supportive commentary. | ||
| Blake |
"I was also told that the battery runs at a deficit with high beams on and sub-2,500 RPM." Upon inspection, the data collected and reported by Zac refutes that claim. Running at 2000 rpm with the high beams on Zac recorded voltages all greater than 13V, which indicates that his 1125R's battery was seeing a net charge not a net drain, this at 2000 rpm, not 2500 rpm with would have only increased the charging rate. A battery cannot discharge if the voltage across its terminals exceeds its own internal voltage. The 13V is marginal, but does indeed indicate a net charge, not a net drain on the battery. A net drain. Yes? The electrical experts here may say otherwise, but that's how I understand it. Zac also started his 1125R, put the high beams on and let the bike idle for 41 minutes straight. At the end of that exercise Zac measured 12.12 volts at the battery. While this exercise did indicate that a net battery drain was occurring, the bike ran at idle, just 1100 rpm, for 41 minutes yet still sustained adequate battery charge. The charging system appears adequate to me. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Zac's bike seems to run fine. We are all glad for him and appreciate all his testing. But it is also a fact that many bikes are NOT running fine. You like facts, but you keep avoiding that fact. Why? I am not trying to solve this problem, only bring what information I have heard. I will repeat, it is not my job to solve this problem or even justify why it is a problem, really. Fact: My bike's battery was drained during an afternoon long ride at highway speeds with high beams on appx. 75% of the time. Or there was a drain someplace after I shut it off. Fact: My bike's battery was DEAD the following morning. Fact: It took 2.5 days on a battery tender to bring it back to life. The charging system does not appear adequate to me. Let's hope that it is a bad component somewhere--that might help explain the randomness of the problem. | ||
| Court |
Then . . . the sign on the bridge IS right!  I think we need some real data before we declare the 1125R inherently flawed as a result of anecdotal evidence. . . Just a guess on my part . . . I'll know more after I get my term paper written. May turn out that the internet is right!  | ||
| Cobralightning |
The only problems I seemed to have were in the first two weeks with the bike. Attaching a voltmeter to the battery I would have 12.7 to start the day. After riding all day I would come home and have between 12.4 and 12.5v on the meter. It is a 15 mile trip one way with 90% highway driving. I would charge the battery every night and after two weeks it stopped draining. I have put 700 miles on the bike since with no problems. Just went out and checked again and the battery is still holding 12.7v. | ||
| Jpfive |
OK, here are some of the design parameters passed on to me in a phone conversation with the Buell factory tech that worked on my bike: The electrical system consists of a permanent magnet, three phase generator, controlled by a shunt type regulator. It is designed to carry normal loads, including high beam and heated grips, at any rpm greater than 2200. The bike and its systems are designed to operate normally at a minimum voltage of 11.7V Two days ago I rode my bike for two hours, mostly between 3500 - 4200 RPM, in 48 degree weather, running high beams and heated grips for most of that time. My battery read 12.8V across the terminals when I stopped for gas. After fueling, diagnostic mode saw my warm bike generating 14V at idle. I am no longer concerned about the charging system on my bike and am just going to get back to loving the dang thing, thank you very much. Jack |
