| Author | Message | |||
     Baggermike |
I had a guy that I think new his stuff and said 3 voltage regulators could be used and that putting those fans on them would help allot. I know the fan is a really good idea. Mike | |||
| Zac4mac |
Having issues with pictures right now. Regulator is mounted to an aluminum slab that is welded to the subframe. It's using the subframe as a heatsink, just above the passenger peg-bracket mounts on the left side. Here -   Z | |||
| Jlnance |
Thanks for the pictures. When I was suggesting you dump water on it, I assumed it was out on the front of the bike like it is on the XBs. I assume the area it's in can get wet from rainwater, so water would be safe, but squirting it on the back of the heatsink might be better. | |||
| Reepicheep |
Cool pics! Can't complain about penetration on the welds on that sub frame, can you?  The heat sink is great, can't ask for more then that. Did we ever figure out if the 1125 has a shunt system, or if it has a alternator with brushes and a variable magnetic field? | |||
| Zac4mac |
Joe. I'd guess shunt from all the heat the regulator is making. I'm thinking that the majority of the time, this bike's gonna run and run. What I am concerned about is how well she's gonna handle something like stop-n-go in 98˚ summertime. Airflow has obviously been taken into account, all over the bike. Was the same attention spent on "no-airflow"? So far, I personally, have had no problem. I want it to stay that way. I'll try a repeat of yesterday's run, but this time cool the reg when it gets low on electrons and see if the Volts come up or if they're getting stuck in the hot alternator. Zack | |||
| Zac4mac |
Crud, first page rolled over. Here's the spreadsheet on the E-Test again. Z
| |||
| Cataract2 |
So there is no heat sink on the VR? | |||
| Zac4mac |
No, just the whole aluminum subframe...<sarcasm> Yes, there's a big heatsink. If you look at the bottom pic, the VR is mounted to an aluminum slab that's welded to the subframe. Last night, while testing, the left side of the subframe was very warm, the VR was getting hot. Today, I'm going to pull the VR and see if it has thermal paste under it. If not, I'll spread some Arctic Silver 5 under it and see if that helps too. Z (Message edited by zac4mac on February 18, 2008) | |||
| Bobup |
Zac maybe you could mount a heatsink to the backside of the mounting plate | |||
| Zac4mac |
Bobup, if the freeze spray has a significant effect, I have several options. The VR is accessible, so the option of either passive or active cooling is there. First step is see if it does any good, or if it's just a "spring loaded belt tensioner". Z | |||
| Doerman |
I'm thinking that the majority of the time, this bike's gonna run and run. What I am concerned about is how well she's gonna handle something like stop-n-go in 98˚ summertime. I can only partially contribute what you are asking here. I was stuck in LA freeway traffic twice. Once in 84 deg weather and once at 75 degree weather. I was lane splitting for about 10 miles at speeds varying from stopped to 25mph. On both occasions the AT showed as high as 112F and coolant temp hung around 195 - 210F. Both of those experiences were not detrimental to the operation of the bike's charging system or anything else. I'm by no means an EE but it seems from the information you have provided (Zack) that your bike charges as it is supposed to do, or am I missing something. The VR is doing what it is asked to do which is supplying the battery with juice when needed. The fact that the V went down as the VR temp got higher might just be related to battery fully charged and the VR is cutting back on the current as it is asked to do. I think you have a a healthy charging system on yours Zack. I remember a while back people reporting this as a problem of going to start the bike in the morning and it was dead. That seems to me to point in the direction of a current leak when the bike is shut off. | |||
| Baggermike |
Zack the eclip shift light can be set to show voltage just like the one you ordered, Al has them for 160 dollars and can be check out at www.ecliptech.com.au/main_win_sep06.html and when starting you hold the button and will stay on the voltage monitoring mode. | |||
| Jpfive |
Zack, your charging numbers look like mine after the stator replacement. FWIW, the Buell techs swapped a cold regulator for a hot one as part of trouble shooting my problem. Generator output did not change. I'm sure that cooling the rectifier can only help, but the heat issue appears to be with the stator. Jack | |||
| Zac4mac |
Asbjorn, true, everything looks fine on the test, system voltage was always above 12v, so that's good. Glad you've been able to test yours in a warmer clime, that adds a little more confidence. I'm still interested in whether the electrical bottleneck is in the stator or the VR at elevated temps. I'm also not loading mine as much as some might, only running high beams and no accessories. More electrical load will only exacerbate the issue. Z | |||
| Jpfive |
See my previous post, Zac. The problem on my bike was in the stator, not the Regulator/Rectifier. Jack | |||
| Baggermike |
Jpfive what did you do to get the techs to come and fix your bike, I called customer CS today my bike is dead and know I need a new stator and other things, it has been at the shop for almost 3 weeks and need my bike. Mike | |||
| Zac4mac |
Well, I went back out to the garage after thinking about what Asbjorn said. This time I focused on the VR. I'll post an Excel sheet in a bit, have to build it first. Bottom line, it appears, after idling for 40 minutes, the VR contributes ZERO to the voltage drop. This is killing my average mpg... Z | |||
| Jpfive |
Mike, The Buell team was in Pensacola to look at Captnemo's bike, not mine. Maybe he will chime in and share how he 'persuaded' them to work on his bike. Jack | |||
| Jpfive |
Zac, glad you could confirm Buell's findings on the RR. I feel your pain on the gas mileage - they put nearly 100 dyno miles on mine. Good news was the bike was filled up when I got it back. Jack | |||
| Zac4mac |
heheh Here's the XL file. I even made a pretty graph for this one.
As a side note, the system voltage always went above 12 volts when above 2K rpm, even when hot and loaded. Also, the VR appears to have a thermal pad between it and the heatsink plate on the subframe. No complaints with the Engineering here. Z | |||
| Jlnance |
zac4mac - Looks like you've shown it isn't a VR problem, and it isn't a shunt regulator. | |||
| Jpfive |
Not sure how you're defining shunt regulator. My understanding is that it regulates essentially by shunting the excess generator output to the frame, and this is the way the Buell techs explained it to me. The bike does not have an alternator. Cody (the Buell tech) and I compared it to the older cars we were familiar with - in his case a '51 Willys that he owns. Jack | |||
| Reepicheep |
Shunt regulator was (a wrong way) to ask if its a fixed magnetic field alternator, or a variable magnetic field alternator. Fixed field is simpler, variable field lets you change how much power you are generating as needed, but more parts to break and you have brushes wearing. | |||
| Jackbequick |
Nice job on the spreadsheets, Z. For those that do not have or want buy Excel, the free OpenOffice.org suite will open and view the Excel spreadsheets with the OpenOffice.org Calc module. Jack | |||
| Cataract2 |
Hm, still would like the VR to have a heat sink on it. The 93 FZR 600 I had used a VR that didn't have a heat sink. Common problem on the FZRs was the VR toasting itself. The solution was to go with the 95+ FZR VR which came with a heat sink. Helped keep it cooler. Think when I get the 1125R I will be moding a heat sink onto that VR. Can't see how it would hurt it. | |||
| Bob_thompson |
You know guys after reading all these posts and having "some" concern about when my new one comes in I'm still wondering about ALL those who are NOT having any problems. Just maybe we are trying to re-engineer what is already a sound design of ALL components on this bike. Like some have said and I agree almost any vehicle can and will have production problems and its usually accountable to the different suppliers of seperate components which have various quality control, i.e. a bad component can occasionally slip through production. Thats why we have manufacturer recalls at their expense minus our inconvenience. About the only way to try and insure a 100% quality control is to inspect every part and if that were done by each supplier this bike would cost considerably more then it does. I will be completely satisfied IF Buell takes care of these problems for the existing bikes having problems in an efficient manner, and soon as possible as is somewhat seen in the case in Florida with one of the guys on here. It does seem like Buell is really trying to resolve any issues. Lets be patient, there is a whole summer ahead of us on a really GREAT bike. Here's hoping, Bob | |||
| Dtx |
Great post Bob. | |||
| Zac4mac |
Cataract - it HAS a heatsink. The VR mounts to an aluminum plate that is welded to the aluminum subframe. I haven't taken it off, but there is a "gasket" between the VR and the plate. I suspect that the "gasket" is a piece of thermally conductive pad. We use similar pads on large parts in our electronics for heat transfer to a sink. The large silver piece in the circle above in pic 2 is the plate, not the back of the VR. As I said, the plate is welded to the subframe. When you're moving, air circulates thru the subframe and cools it. It all appears very well designed and implemented. OK, did a little reading on VRs, and no, it's probably not a shunt regulator. They're way too primitive to be on this hi-tech beast. Another source for its heat in my test could be the engine, while I'm in the garage not moving. With a fan blowing into the radiators, hot air goes right down the center of the frame, out the back. All I know for sure is the voltage drops with engine temp and the VR temp has no bearing on output voltage. I also know that everything I've seen says the system will always be charging as long as I stay above 2K rpm. As I said, I have no problem with any of the Engineering I've looked at. Implementation looks Engineering driven, not Accounting. The more I find out about this machine, the more I love it. Another big thank-you to the Elves. Z | |||
| Jlnance |
My understanding is that it regulates essentially by shunting the excess generator output to the frame, and this is the way the Buell techs explained it to me. What you're describing is a shunt regulator. But if that's what's on the bike, the VR should get cooler as the load is increased. The spreadsheet shows it heating up as load is increased. The other way that could happen is if the frame hadn't reached a steady state temp from the engine heat before the regulator load was increased. | |||
| Ccryder |
Bob: I think you have been away from all this 6 Sigma stuff and all by your comment: About the only way to try and insure a 100% quality control is to inspect every part". Even with 100% inspection if your manufacturing process is not capable, the best you will really have is about 80% good parts. In our industry we are striving for something less than 500 defects per million (500ppm~ 0.0005%). In the "big" picture reducing defects is a cost savings, not a cost adder. Anyway, I feel like you that Buell will determine the failure mode and resolve the issue(s). This process does take some time and every organization has to play CYA at least a little bit. Even if just to make sure they have arrived at the best solution. YRMV but I just spent my $0.02. Later Neil S. |
