| Author | Message | |||
     Husky |
A friend is a retired Electronics Engineer, and here is his quick take on the problem. "They could have temperature sensing in the regulator to reduce charging with temperature to keep batteries from going south? If they have faulty parts or workmanship or bad algorithm that may be a problem. Copper has a positive TC, resistance goes up with temperature. Might have a problem of not using big enough wire in the stator. Self heating plus engine heat. The windings turn brown??? If they could separate the regulator when the engine is cold and heat it up. Or probably better, when hot and voltage down. Cool the unmounted regulator with a fan or zip lock bag of ice cubes? This would separate the problem. There could be a connection or other device like a diode somewhere passing the major current dropping the voltage. They will probably use a scope with breakout cables to look at the AC going in right off the alternator. They will (should) have a spec on that. Would not put it past them, everything might be from Japan, Korea, or China? The Buell guys need to jump on this and not try to cover it up. Remember BSA, ONCE ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS, ALWAYS ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS!" Husky | |||
| Spectrum |
I mounted a voltage gauge on the bike this weekend. After riding today and watching the gauge. It's obvious there's a direct relationship between voltage and heat. The warmer the engine gets the lower the voltage gets. Ride easy and let the engine cool down and the voltage climbs back up. | |||
| Buellborn |
The hidden features just keep popping up. | |||
| Sheridan_bueller |
I wonder if this is why the bikes run so cold. 164*F is not very 'warm' for an engine. | |||
| Bobup |
cold?????? mine runs at least 185 even in 40 degree weather | |||
| Dtx |
I am surprised this problem did not affect the pre-production bikes. Why didn't this surface on all the Inside Pass track day bikes? | |||
| Xb9 |
I think they had the fuse pulled for the lighting circuit, so the load on the charging system was not more than what it takes to feed the FI and spark? | |||
| Slypiranna |
You may have a dug up a valid point there Xb9...as the pit pics from that day clearly show blue tape over the entire headlight lens...scroll down on this page http://www.roadcarvin.com/ | |||
| Baggermike |
I was told it is a ktm system if that helps. | |||
| Zac4mac |
Bobup, really? Do your fans kick in? I have only seen mine get above 174˚ when I'm messing with it in the garage. Mine usually runs between 162-164˚ as long as I'm moving. I think it got up to 174˚ when I was in traffic the other day and it was 72˚ outside. Xb9 - I though someone pulled their lighting fuse for a track day and it wouldn't start. Nope, went out and tried it on Loretta. Pulled the lights fuse while she was running and the headlights went out. Still running, still had running lights and tail. Pulled the accessory fuse and the tail and running lights died but she kept running still. Z | |||
| Fresnobuell |
From my experience, anything under 170 is cool. 170-175 normal. Over 180 getting on the warm side. The good thing is that once moving, the system seems to do a good job getting rid of the excess heat. We will see when summer rolls around. I have seen temps of 190+ plus at a stop following a spirited ride. | |||
| Vincent |
hey zac, do that same scenario for the fuses while the bike is hot and running and see if that changes the stator volts. If the volts go up then it shows to be a low efficient stator but if they don't move then I would assume that the system is regulated down on the voltage to possibly keep less load on the system when it is fully charged. Just a suggestion to see what happens. | |||
| Sheridan_bueller |
Bobup, I think it is cold considering there are many, far less impressive engines running in small cars etc, that have thermostats to run 220 or more. Granted, they most likely have more than .8 gallons of coolant and larger radiators but still,,, My old ('75) Goldwing has a 190*F thermostat in it, it has no trouble with it. I was only guessing that perhaps they had some trouble with heat and the electrical, quick fixed it by running the engine cooler. Just my guess, that's all. Voltage drops when bike gets hot, cool it down! JJ | |||
| Dtx |
I am scheduled to plop down 12K in two weeks when my bike comes in. All this discussion is making me nervous about that decision, honestly. Hmm... | |||
| Jos51700 |
I'm not saying yea, nea, or otherwise to this issue. I'm just noting that, in regards to the temp sensor in the regulator suggested in the first post, newer cars have temp sensors in the batteries that monitor temperature, and regulate voltage to limit overcharging based on battery heat. Just a technical tidbit. | |||
| Zac4mac |
I thought I saw pics of the lights on under the tape. Can't find any pix tho. I'll give it a try tomorrow. Paper and pen watch in stopwatch mode DMM and Diag Mode for monitors Temp and voltage, loaded - high beams on/unloaded - both fuses pulled, @ 2Krpm, 4Krpm, 8Krpm 160˚, 175˚ I'll see if I can get to 195-200˚ Any other ideas for the experiment? JJ - wasn't one of the biggest complaints early in the Inside Track Days hot-foot and "overheating"? They did change the oil cooler to one almost twice as big. Z | |||
| Sheridan_bueller |
Yes, I think it was. I haven't went back an looked into it but as I remember, it seems like some of the bikes were getting up to 220*. I wonder if these bikes were experiencing voltage problems and, being 'all new', the problems were still looking for a cause? I sure wish I knew more about this new fangled 'puter controlled stuff.  JJ | |||
| Bob_thompson |
Dtx, I am also in your position with my 1125 deposit down and should be taking delivery in a short time. With what seems like over 500 bikes already in riders hands there are not too many who are having problems but if you are the one who is its really bad. I am one who feels that when we are spending this kind of money there should not be any problems, like we are seeing, even on a limited basis. Buell has pretty much shown they want to resolve ANY problems but many times want the dealer to solve it and we already know how many, many dealers are with, (without) Buell service and even worse with the new model 1125's. I do not think my dealer has sent a tech to E. Troy for training either and that worries me also. I really want this bike to be as good as my 2002 M2 but having some doubts as you are. Please Buell, put my mind at ease and help me make a positive decision and get one. Its time to ride, NOW, not having a bike sit in the shop for weeks or more. Bob | |||
| Baggermike |
Bob whait to see how they handle my bike, I had bad luck with my ulysses which I bought late june, I asked the salesman if they were coming out with any new bikes and said no a week later the 1125R mini site was on the web so he lied to me, oil pump broke in mid october and got jerked around at the dealership and did not get it back until december, now I bought the 1125R and have brought it to the dealership 3 times then stopped running and friday will be three weeks and I do not think that the dealership which is new I did not buy from the same dealership as I did the ulysses, real good people and my sales man is pissed off to, Maine has a lemon law so I am starting the ball rolling and calling Buell CS to and telling them either give me a new bike or send the techs out to fix it or it is going to be a while for the dealership can do it they have no manuals so I am taking action and will post what I know when I know and see if Buell is a good company that stands by there product, I am also going to tell them that people are waiting to hear from me and Buell is going to resolve my issues before buying the bike. Mike | |||
| Zac4mac |
Got the tests run and data dumped into Excel. I noticed towards the end, that the regulator itself is dumping a LOT of heat. The whole aluminum subframe was pretty warm on the left side of the bike. I wedged the thermocouple against the aluminum body of the regulator with a connector shell. After idling about 3 minutes, the regulator was at 140˚ F, enough to be uncomfortable to touch. After idling 10 minutes, the battery was at 12.12VDC, CT steady @ 172˚ F and the regulator was at 153.5˚ F. Anyway, here's the spreadsheet.
Z | |||
| Baggermike |
Zack some guy told me to use a computer chip cooler on the voltage regulator also said I could run 3 vr's, not an electrical guy so do not know if that is true and how a 3 phase works verses a 1 phase charging system. I can do mechanics but when it comes to charging systems and fuel injection I AM LOST. I miss the good old days when no battery was needed and you could kick start the motor and use a book of matches cover to set the points. Mike | |||
| Cataract2 |
Well Zac. From what I can tell from that spreadsheet that yeah. It would appear that the VR is having a cooling issue that causes it's performance to drop with heat. I would trust that Buell is working on this right now. Would be nice for annony to chime in and at least keep us in the loop here. | |||
| Nickcaro |
Zac, great job on collecting the data and thank you for sharing it. | |||
| Zac4mac |
I think the next thing to do is get the engine and regulator hot, then hit the reg with freeze spray and see what that does to output. I don't have any freeze spray so I can't try that yet. I still don't think we've isolated the issue to either the alternator or the reg. We already knew the output falls off with heat but this test just confirms that. I think if I can go ride it for 15 minutes then idle in the garage for another 15 or 20 then check voltage, freeze the reg and check again. That should tell what they are each doing, hopefully pointing to an area to work out a fix if needed. Zack | |||
| Bob_thompson |
Zac, good job so far and many here are thankful for your testing. I do not think much can be done simply with the alternator without a considerable amount of work if, in fact, it is overheating but maybe a relocation of the regulator in more clean cool air is needed. Where exactly is it located? Your post of seeing 153.5 degrees does not seem too high for a failure of components but high enough to limit current flow due to heat (ohms law). I'll be very interested to see your test with cooling the regulator and thanks again for some good troubleshooting. Bob | |||
| Bobup |
Zac...if you can't get the freeze spray try using just a can of compressed air...that should still give a chilling effect. | |||
| Jlnance |
I think the next thing to do is get the engine and regulator hot, then hit the reg with freeze spray and see what that does to output. I don't have any freeze spray so I can't try that yet. Yes, that is a very good idea. Don't bother with freeze spray though, just use water. It would be interesting to watch the voltage as you cool the regulator and see how quickly it changes. | |||
| Nickcaro |
well, if you're going to use a can of compressed air you can turn it upside down and get a nice chilling effect, | |||
| Jlnance |
Your post of seeing 153.5 degrees does not seem too high for a failure of components but high enough to limit current flow due to heat (ohms law). Semiconductor components cease to operate properly at relatively low temperatures. It's generally about 100 degrees higher than what is being measured here, but it's certainly hotter inside the regulator than on the outside. Does someone have a picture of how the regulator is mounted? | |||
| Reepicheep |
I've got an old CPU fan from a scrapped '386 motherboard ;) |
