| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
I went to the International Motorcycle show here in Birmingham (UK) yesterday, and finally had the opportunity to see the 1125R face to face, and to compare it directly to the KTM RC8 & Ducati 848 and to take a very close look (and sit on) all three. I tried to be as objective and dispassionate as possible (even though I have an 1125R on order and run a Buell related accessory business), and ran through a check list of likes/dislikes and comparisons with all three bikes. Styling Styling is always subjective, so what I think may not be the majority view of course! Everybody has been saying that the 1125R looks better in the flesh than in the photographs, which I always thought was damning with faint praise, but decided to wait until I actually had a good chance to see one before making my mind up. The front fairing is definitely the best part of the whole styling job, and apart from looking as though it is mounted a little high compared to the rest of the bike works very well. From some angles (particularly head on) it works incredibly well and blends with the side pods quite nicely. Unfortunately the side pods, although looking slightly better in the flesh than in pictures, still look like an afterthought from any other view than head on or when sat on the bike, and would irritate me beyond belief over time. Why couldn't they be incorporated into the fairing for a more integrated look? The rest of the bodywork looks like the designer ran out of time and decided to stick the Firebolt plastics on at the last minute. There would be nothing wrong in this of course, other than the new rear undertray which ruins lines of the rear end and makes it appear much more bulbous and bulky than it needs to be. It also makes the bike look instantly dated compared with the current trend for sharper and more angular tail units as seen on the new R6, CBR1000RR and of course KTM RC8. Speaking of which, the RC8 is a lot less angular than the photographs suggest, and the design is very well integrated from front to rear. Panel fit on the KTM is superb although the panel fasteners tend to stand out against the orange or white colour schemes available. The KTM belies its 5 year gestation period brilliantly and looks absolutely bang up to date and cutting edge in comparison to the 1125R unfortunately. The exhaust on the 1125R looks 10 times worse in the flesh than the pictures, and I never thought I would say that. Please, please, please change it or at least cover it up in future models! In contrast, the RC8 exhaust is stainless steel and shaped to form the lower part of the fairing very well. In fact you have to look closely to see where the fairing ends and the muffler begins. The Ducati exhaust is similar to the 1098 model, although the show model I tried was fitted with the optional Termiglioni's. The KTM is certainly not perfect though, and the panel finish is a love it or loathe it affair in its matt metallic finish similar to the Superduke. The white model certainly looks a lot better than the orange in this respect. The deep gloss black Buell finish looks much better than the previous model plastics and are certainly less contentious than the KTM. The 848 Ducati of course looks beautiful from every angle, and is finished in the usual deep gloss paint that Ducati fans are already very happy with. The new all white paint job is superb and definitely the choice to have instead of the usual Ducati Red option. Both the KTM (orange or white) and Ducati (red or white) stand out much better than the muted black/blue colours of the Buell. Ergonomics I didn't get a chance to ride any of the bikes, so these are just initial impressions from sitting on the bikes in static displays. Sitting on the 1125R will be a familiar experience to anyone who currently owns a Firebolt, sharing as it does the seat unit & airbox cover and with familiar looking handlebars and top yoke. I haven't ridden a Firebolt for some time but this bike definitely seemed a bit roomier than I remember, particularly in the reach from the seat to the bars. How they managed this using the same bodywork I don't know, and maybe it is just me. My 6'2" frame was always a bit cramped on the XBR whereas this definitely felt bigger. The Ducati seating position is typical of the breed, with a fair stretch to the relatively low mounted bars and with high footrests. Definitely the sportiest of the three bikes but not unduly cramped despite that. The KTM seemed to have had the most thought put into the riding position, and was instantly comfortable and almost infinitely adjustable. It features adjustable bars, pegs and a seat that can be moved 2" up down to give the best option whatever the rider's size & shape. My only complaint was that the high tail unit hinders mounting and dismounting from the bike, and in 4 attempts I caught my calf on the tail unit every time. In soft jeans this isn't a problem but in full leathers and boots it would be a fair stretch even for someone as tall as me. Both of the show bikes were already showing signs of scuffing on the top of the tail units and it wouldn't take long for them to start looking second hand. Mirrors on the 1125 just had the edge over the KTM items purely by virtue of the wider fairing. Both gave a significantly better view than those on the Ducati. Pillion passengers are not particulary well served by any of these three bikes, and to be honest none of the current generation of sports bikes are much kinder either. Of the three bikes here the Buell seems to offer the best pillion position simply by virtue of its wider seat and lower pegs. Only the KTM offers any form of grab rails, although I think this is an option rather than a standard feature. The instruments are a vast improvement over the previous Buell models, although I am not sure about the slightly gimmicky nature of the gear change light that changes the colour of the needle rather than having a large separate light that can be seen in peripheral vision at speed (unless I missed something of course). The KTM has a similar digital instrument console, although it is capable of displaying more information than the Buell, including tyre pressures! The downside of this is that the RC8 instruments displays appear a little fussy and harder to read than either the Buell or the Ducati. The 848 shares the same digital instruments as the 1098, and although it looked very nice I was unable to see them in 'working' mode so can't really comment further. I have heard no complaints regarding these clocks so can't see any issues arising from the 848's clocks. Desirability Ducati is already established as an aspirational brand, so they will have absolutely no problems selling as many 848's as they can roll off the production line. KTM too are rolling high on their race successes and their successful 'Race Ready' advertising campaign. They are seen as a young, 'go getting' company here in Europe and the RC8 has been one of the most eagerly awaited bikes of the last few years, so it is again no surprise that they have apparently sold their entire 2008 UK allocation prior to release. Buell though is a different matter over here, and is a brand still struggling to extricate itself from under the corporate flab of Harley-Davidson and establish its own niche as a serious sportsbike manufacturer. I stood back and watched each of the 3 manufacturers stands yesterday to judge what other people said about the bikes, and to see just how many people gravitated to each model. Over a period of around 30 minutes the KTM RC8 had a constant queue of people waiting to sit on the bike and to poke, prod and ask questions. KTM had very knowledgable staff standing next to each bike, and as far as I could tell were able to offer full in depth answers to just about everyone, from demonstrating how the instruments worked to explaining what will be available as race and aftermarket parts (including Akrapovic exhausts apparently). I saw very few people who were not very impressed with the bike and who didn't have something positive to say about it. The Ducati stand was equally busy, although the staff there were very aloof and seemed to do their level best not to speak to anyone. Despite this, there was a constant stream of visitors and positive comments about not just the 848 but the entire Ducati range (including the new Monster and the Desmosedicci). In comparison, the Buell stand was a relatively quiet backwater. Here were a few people showing interest in the 1125 but certainly not in the numbers seen on the other two displays. This was also the only place I heard any disparaging comments about any of the models featured here. Perversely, Buell UK seem to have staffed the entire Buell stand with attractive young ladies that, although looking good, could do no more than hand out leaflets. If you wanted anything more technical they had to call upon someone from the neighbouring H-D stand, and then they would come across dressed in corporate H-D colours and not Buell. Maybe it was just while I was there, but this did strike me as very strange given the technical nature of the new model and Buell's desire to be seen as a separate entity to H-D. These conclusions seem to be borne out by the Motorcycle news survey of most popular bikes at the show this year. The RC8 comes in third whilst the 848 is eighth. The 1125R doesn't feature at all in the list (Top place goes to the new Honda CBR1000RR so far) Although very hard to draw conclusions just from sitting on a bike rather than riding it, I think that Buell have an uphill struggle marketing the 1125 here in the UK for a number of reasons. All three bikes are priced within £1000 of each other, and whilst it is a considerable amount it would not be a deal breaker at this level with most Superbikes costing around the £8500 - £10500 price range. Both KTM & Ducati have massive accessory catalogues with parts available for these models, and these can be offered as 'sweeteners' to prospective customers. Buell unfortunately has nothing available yet, and given the luke warm test reports from the launch in the UK press I think that Buell have the hardest job of the three manufacturers here. Factor in the latest sportsbikes options from Honda/Suzuki/Kawasaki/Yamaha etc and the job gets even harder. Customers buying into this level of motorcycling base their purchase as much on looks and style as anything else, given that performance levels are so academic to most of us these days, and the 1125 may just be too left field to cut it in this hyper competitive sector. I hope Buell can prove me wrong and that the 1125 becomes a best seller over here, but they haven't made it easy for themselves. (Message edited by trojan on November 23, 2007) | ||
| Firebolt428 |
Good post trojan. Thanks. I will be heading to my show here in Seattle Dec 3rd. | ||
| Doerman |
Yes, good writeup. Very comprehensive and with all the caveats, meaning "as seen through your eyes". It was interesting to note your comments about foot traffic in the three manufacturer's areas. In another thread, two guys reported on their experience at the IMS in San Mateo and reported brisk traffic in at the Buell display. Points to perhaps: - nationalism - Buell's ability to do a proper job at the stand - peoples tastes differ from region to region - difference in level of pre-marketing of the vehicles. Whatever it is, it will be interesting to see what happens when the rubber meets the sales floors around the world. Cheers Asbjorn | ||
| Bosh |
Good observations and write up Trojan. I agree point for point with your opinion of the styling. The 1125 looks absolutely wicked from the front. The faring is wide and sleek and has a very original look to it. The rest of the bike.... just doesn't work for me. Of course as stated looks are VERY subjective. I saw the 1125 at the IMS show at San Mateo on Sunday. I was stunned to see the 1125 (two of them) just sitting on the floor with the other bikes in the Buell line up. No fan fare or anything to give it a "highlight". Hardly anyone looking at them when I was there. The Orange Uly seemed to be getting most of the attention on its cool leaned over display rack, although lots of people commenting on the ugly sissy bar. I don't know why they insist on displaying these with the darn triple tail sticking straight up (or back). | ||
| Brad1445 |
THanks for the well written analysis. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
The 848 shares the same digital instruments as the 1098, and although it looked very nice I was unable to see them in 'working' mode so can't really comment further. I have heard no complaints regarding these clocks so can't see any issues arising from the 848's clocks. . Good writeup. I don't mean to nit pick, but I will. The digital tach on the 1098/848 is so bad that some people put a piece of tape on it to indicate redline. Surprised you aren't aware of that. Most of the other stuff is subjective, so that will differ WIDELY. Lack of Buell interest in the UK doesn't surprise me for some reason. (Message edited by fresnobuell on November 23, 2007) | ||
| V8killr |
Thanks for the writeup! Here are my thoughts: I don’t see the 848 being any where near the performance class of the 1125R. The 848 having similar drive train losses of the 1098, and typical Ducati over estimated HP numbers, the 848 will be more in line with the performance of a 600. Yet again, Ducati is back to delivering great bang for the buck. Additionally, these bikes are not really in direct competition with one another. On the one had, you have the 1125R which is a streetbike first and a well performing trackbike second. On the other hand, the 848 is a trackbike first and a streetbike as an after thought. As for the KTM, I don’t know enough to really state an opinion. Jason | ||
| Pistol |
Clearly the Buell is spot on from a bike that is designed to be ridden all the time everyday perspective. The intake scoops a thing of functional beauty. The exhaust looks like just functional. I really like the looks from top to bottom front to back unconventional but cool. It does not fit into that Metro-Sexual European Design parameters but kind of screams ride me I will handle anything that comes up and get us home. It exudes that soul that emulates from Buells. | ||
| Brumbear |
The Buell is what I would get because thats what I like but I like street fighters so I will wait for the street fighter rotax to make its debut or stay with my 12 SS | ||
| Sheridan_bueller |
Amen to that Pistol! I'm not into metro-sexual anything, I just want to ride. Therefore, as far as I can see, Buell is the only bike that fits. Made to ride. | ||
| Bearly |
Yep, Pistol, I fourth or fifth that. Being that the 1125R looks so much better than that KTM or the Multistrada, I would imagine some guys that sell add on junk for bikes in Europe are going to have to include parts for the 1125r in their stock.  | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I don't see the problem with the exhaust--even in pictures. Buell should get big time credit for having a good looking exhaust that ALSO passes emissions. For all those that are bagging on the exhaust have you seen some of the recent atrocities on competitive bikes. Not to mention all the copy-cat designs...and if the Buell exhaust performs as advertised...I don't see the beef. | ||
| Brad1445 |
I'll pay you $50 for each occurrence where anyone steals the new Buell under the engine exhuast design. To qualify It must not have a real shape, something like the dogbone, large at one end small in the middle and large again. It cannot look like a fairing or a bellypan to count it bust be organic and free flowing in design same as the Buell. You have all the witnesses here that I will pay up. It needs to have the same look that follows no lines anywhere else on the bike and be one of the largest components on the bike, same as Buell. This offer will expire in 50 years or when I'm dead what ever comes first. | ||
| Dbird29 |
 What an offer! | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Brad, I think we all know that the underslung exhausts are popping up everywhere--not identical to the 1125r exhaust, but that is a GOOD thing. I LIKE my bikes to be set apart from the crowd. Functional, unique, Buell-bring it on. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I was considering an aftermarket pipe or system for my XB9R but waited for Al's place to do their shoot-out. End result was nothing was significantly better than Buell's race can. I'm betting we're in for a repeat, need to cover up the "new lump" with a chin fairing. I just hope it's not TOO quiet, I'm a Harley Guy™ first. Seeing a few other makers starting to shrink the length and widen their mufflers and put them underneath. Makes the most sense except on a dirt bike so why not? I really don't expect to see many with the dogbone shape of the "Helmholz Chambers" tho, so you're prolly safe. Z | ||
| Teddagreek |
Thank You for Unbiased review...  | ||
| Rocketman |
Praise be to JP for their forward thinking back in 1894. Without their simple design of straight tubing acting as a lever to operate the steering of their motorcycle, all bikes ever made might well be using a steering wheel to this day. If only great granddad JP had paid for a copyright I'd have been born rich beyond belief - or all motorcycles would look ridiculous! Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
Being that the 1125R looks so much better than that KTM or the Multistrada, I would imagine some guys that sell add on junk for bikes in Europe are going to have to include parts for the 1125r in their stock. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course, and I would agree 100% about the Multistrada, but wait until you see the KTM 'in the flesh' before passing judgement. The design integrates so well from all angles and from front to rear that you don't notice the sharp angles and straight lines that seem so obvious in pictures. I think my initial disapointment with the 1125R was that, despite some very nice design touches such as the fairing, it just didn't gel as well when viewed as a whole design compared to some of the other new bikes present at the show. Also at the same show were the new BMW HP2 Sport (Very nice but expensive for what you get), and their 450X enduro bike that was absolutely superb. It made the rest of the off road bikes at the show look flabby and overweight (including KTM and the Big 4)! Benelli had their new 570 Supermoto and 505 Motocross bikes on show as well as their interesting new 756 Parallel twin that has already won styling prizes across the industry. For me though, the best two bikes at the show (although showing my age I suppose) were: A factory modified Triumph Thruxton with Ohlins USD forks, Ohlins shocks, Full Arrow exhaust and digital instruments. Absolutely gorgeous and a lesson in minimalist styling and a true modern cafe racer. This bike was attracting far more attention than even the 675 and the rest of the Triumph range on the stand.  Second place goes to a bright red Ducati 1000 Sport Classic fitted with full fairing and Termi' pipes....luvverly   Nolan/X-Lite also showed some of their new range of helmets, including a stunning Mike Hailwood replica and a Johnny Cecotto replica. Very nice indeed.  | ||
| Gregtonn |
"Praise be to JP for their forward thinking back in 1894. Without their simple design of straight tubing acting as a lever to operate the steering of their motorcycle, all bikes ever made might well be using a steering wheel to this day." Actually the first automobiles used a steering arm or "tiller", not a steering wheel. But then you already knew that didn't you? | ||
| V74 |
i went to the nec bike show yesterday,i like the 1125r,the rc8 was a good looking bike to,pity we cant have the best of both in one bike,the buell stand had staff that new their stuff to. | ||
| Karlsbad |
Trojan Well done, I just got back from the IMS in Seattle, I observed much of the same stuff. I recently canceled my order and lifted my deposit on a 1125R, and after seeing the bike in person for the first time I am sad to say I am glad I did. The side scoops are awful I could live with everything else, and while seated on the bike you do not really notice them, but I have to look at this thing in my garage and sorry to say it but IMHO Buell has missed the mark. The new CBR1000RR was (IS) way better looking I predict you will see discounted 1125's early next summer. Can't wait for the RC8 | ||
| Rocketman |
Yes but did you see the tiller steering version of the 1125 Karl  Rocket | ||
| Zac4mac |
Perhaps on the discounts, but if I like mine like I think I will, from all the descriptions, you'll have to pry my cold dead fingers off mine to get it. And it'll take a while for them to get cold, with heated grips... Don't hold your breath. More likely is Buell will have a hard time keeping up with orders. Z | ||
| Karlsbad |
Zac4Mac Don't get me wrong I think the bike has a place, it just won't be at my place. | ||
| Zac4mac |
That's cool. There'll be one in my garage tomorrow. Stop by for a beer if you come down to play in our mountains. Z | ||
| Blake |
I wonder how many folks are considering what a motorcycle looks like with the rider aboard. Looks to me like the 1125R integrates fantastically with a rider. I've yet to see one in person, but the more photos I see, the more the 1125R is growing on me, sucking me in. "I predict you will see discounted 1125's early next summer." Not a terribly risky prediction abiet a trollish naysaying one. Most any sportbike on the market typically sees discounted prices just prior to the release of the next year's models. "Can't wait for the RC8." Why? Its only already been what, five years of waiting? I can sure wait. I've been waiting and don't expect anything different. |
