| Author | Message | ||
     Vagelis46 |
Is there an idea at the Buell factory to develop some kind of air scoops to get air to the rotor and/or the caliper on the 1125R (hopefuly to the XB's ZTL too)?? I think that ZTL will be greatly benefited since it is not on direct wind blast, as in conventional systems. There are many cars that have "vanes" on the caliper to get air to the rotor. Also in F1 the wheels are designed as to create a "fan" effect to cool the rotors. Is Buell considering to to design the front wheels as to force air to the rotor as it spins?? Is a solution like this considered by the Buell factory and maybe sold as a "race" part??? | ||
| Brad1445 |
be careful what you wish for...  | ||
| Bonjoxb12s |
Is that the new electric Hybrid they are offering??  | ||
| Slaughter |
Brad, you are EVIL!  | ||
| Glitch |
On the XB bikes, the rear hugger just happens to be just the right size to make a nice air scoop for the ZTL caliper. I think it was Jens that figured this out, if I'm wrong about Jens, it was probably Matt (Trojan). | ||
| Phatkidwit1eye |
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| 1313 |
Glitch, Not sure if Jens has or had used a XB rear hugger or not, but these are pics of the X-BORG Race Team XB I took this past June at the BORG MSM (Buell Owner and Repair Group Mid Summer Meeting) in Haltern am See, Germany:    1313  | ||
| Blake |
The ZTL-2 8-piston caliper nullifies the need for enhanced caliper cooling. The XBRR is proof of that, yes? Maybe if/when someone decides to take an 1125R up to Superbike racing type performance specs the issue will warrant revisiting, but that is a big maybe. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
So far the tests of the 1125R in the mags, said that the 1125r brakes are an improvement over the XB, but not as good as the 2-disc systems found on other manufacturers (Ducati, GSXR, R1..). And particularly, some testers said that they had not a good confidence in the brakes, resulting in braking too early. Using the ZTL2 in the XBRR, is not a proof that the system is 100% OK. I hope Buell, realize the importance of this, and will put a lot of efford in evolving the cooling of the ZTL2 system. It might prove to be the weak link of the 1125r, when it is put against the 1098s and R1s. I was thinking something like redesigning the front wheel, so that airflow to the disk is produced, as the wheel spins. F1 is using this technique, why not Buell??? Regarding ZTL on the XB, all the tests I have read ( UK's BIKE and PB)are very negative for the performance of the system. It overheats easily, spoiling the brakes performance. | ||
| No_rice |
i still havent figured out how they are over heating the brakes. maybe they use them to much... i put 700 miles(in just a couple days) on at the dragon of on/off the brakes hard riding. i realize my speeds are lower there, but then so is the cooling effect on the brakes. | ||
| Anonymous |
Some perspective: The 20 or so 1125Rs that are offered for demos at "Inside Pass" events likely see 6 hours of use on a racetrack each day -- 15 to 20 minutes on, 5 minutes off, repeat. In the expert division, a lot of the riders who participate are good local club racers. The bikes are ridden hard. The only commments heard on the ZTL2 is about how outstanding it is. | ||
| Josh_cox |
To add another "real world" example, we've been endurance racing with the ZTL2 setup all year. Our shortest race was four hours; our longest race was eight hours. ZTL2 has given us no issues except a few surprise stoppies after changing from ZTL1. Josh | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It is good to hear that the ZTL2 has solved all the problems of the ZTL. The ZTL had definately problems with overheating, at least with the stock pads. I have personaly experiensed brake fade, and I was not happy. Now I am waiting for what the press will have to say about the 1125r's brakes, compared to the GSXR, R1, RSV and 1098. I really want the 1125r to have no "weak point" ! GO 1125R !! | ||
| Blake |
"So far the tests of the 1125R in the mags, said that the 1125r brakes are an improvement over the XB, but not as good as the 2-disc systems found on other manufacturers (Ducati, GSXR, R1..). And particularly, some testers said that they had not a good confidence in the brakes, resulting in braking too early. " Please direct me to these naysaying reviews of the Buell ZTL-2 brake. "Now I am waiting for what the press will have to say about the 1125r's brakes, compared to the GSXR, R1, RSV and 1098. " I thought you just said (see your quoted comments above) that the press reviews were negative.  (Message edited by Blake on September 21, 2007) | ||
| Blake |
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| Vagelis46 |
This is an abstract from : http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?Ar ticleID=5256&Page=2 "However, for my taste this set-up doesn't seem to be on par with the traditional dual-disc, radial-mount Brembo units sampled on its Italian rivals in terms of initial feel and overall power - but it works just fine." | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Another one in : http://www.raptorsandrockets.com/Reviews/2008_Buel l_1125R.htm "The 8-piston or Octal as I have called the new front brake is supremely powerful, but once again I didn?t get the same perfect feel that I remember from the 07 Suzuki GSX-R1000 and Yamaha R1. Quite often I applied the brakes a little bit too early as a direct cause." | ||
| M1combat |
"However, for my taste this set-up doesn't seem to be on par with the traditional dual-disc, radial-mount Brembo units sampled on its Italian rivals in terms of initial feel and overall power - but it works just fine." I could care less what his tastes are if they "work just fine". Do they work or not? Can they be used as effectively as a competing system? ALL things I have heard about the ZTL2 seem to point to a "yes" answer. "The 8-piston or Octal as I have called the new front brake is supremely powerful" Then this guy says they are "Supremely Powerful". WHO IS CORRECT? Personally... I think the guy that rode the Japanese 1000 back to back with the 1125R is correct. I only know of one guy such as that who also made a comment. The comment was quite positive. In any case... What's more important? Power, feel or ability to modulate? | ||
| Chadhargis |
He applied the brakes too early? Is there such a thing? If so, what did it hurt? His lap times? This isn't a race replica bike like the R1, Gixxer, or others. It's a street bike, built for 90% of the people who'll be riding it. Nailing the brakes at the very last fraction of a second is a darn good way to wind up dead on the street. Slow down early, set your entry speed, and take the turn. Sure, on the track...no...in a race...late braking is a way of life. But on the street, and even during a track day, braking early is a great habit to get into. I ride the majority of my miles on the street, so I try to cement good street habits on the track versus working on "race" skills that I'm never going to use. | ||
| M1combat |
"Quite often I applied the brakes a little bit too early as a direct cause." Sooo... This guy can SPECIFICALLY remember thinking to himself while coming into a brake zone at full chat "Hmmm... The LAST time I used these brakes they didn't feel quite as good as the R1 brakes I've used (sometime in the past mind you) so I think I'll just hit the brakes a little early..." Whatever... I think he was scared coming over T1 at Laguna. | ||
| Xb9 |
Do race cars or performance street cars have dual disks for each wheel? There's no logic to why ZTL2 shouldn't work. It's just different than the status quo. Why have twice the hardware, complexity and weight when one will do the job? And then there's the benefit of less unsprung weight. In my opinion it makes a lot of sense. Yes, the original ZTL is marginal when pushed to the limits of it's design. I know it was marginally adequate for track use on my stock XB9 but after I modified it and subsequently increased the top speed to around 150 MPH it became evident that it's not adequate for that kind of speed. But then it was not DESIGNED to haul an XB down from a buck fifty. After riding the 1125r the XB will be getting a ZTL2 conversion this winter. Opinions are like @ss holes, everyone's got one. Ride the 1125r hard on the track and judge for yourself. I did. I'm sold. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"He applied the brakes too early? Is there such a thing? If so, what did it hurt? His lap times? " It means that the feeling he was getting from the brake's performance, was not that good ,and he had not confidence in the performance of the brakes. Riding a bike fast is all about confidence and the "feel" you get, either ridding on the street, or racing in motoGP level. Anyway, I do not want to be a pesimist in any way. I just hope that when 1125R is taken to Nurburgring by UK's PB, the brakes will prove OK. Because when they used an XB12ss, they were really disapponted by the ZTL1. They loved the bike, but hated the brakes. They were constantly overheated. Hopefully this will not be the case with the 1125R. | ||
| Chadhargis |
I understand feel, and confidence. I've done enough track days to know that confidence in your bike helps you to relax and be smooth on the controls. That being said, if you aren't going for all out lap times (as you would in a race or qualifying), and you are just riding for fun, then what's the harm in braking a little early if you believe the brakes aren't up to the task of late braking, or if they don't have the "feel" you want. I have a GSX-R600 as a track bike, and I don't care for the feel of the brakes. I put on some pads that are really "grabby". They bite hard with only a slight squeeze. I like my braking to be very linear and forgiving. If I ham fist it and grab too much, I don't want to lowside. I've taken my Ulysses to the track, with the ZTL1 on a 500lb bike with a 235lb rider, and I can honestly say, I like the ZTL better. Not as strong as the brakes on my 420lb 600, but I tend to brake really early and set my entry speed well before the turn unless I'm trying to get around someone. As I said, I don't apply the "race" method of "braking to the apex" and I don't think that's a good habit to develop for street riding. I still do MUCH more street riding than I do track riding. I'm preparing to do my last track day of the year on October 7th at Barber. It will be my 6th this year, but still no where near the amount of time I've spent on the street. If/when I end up with an 1125R, I'm sure given my skills, I won't be able to overheat the brakes, even with my 235lb fanny on the bike. I just don't feel comfortable charging into a turn at full chat and hoping I can slow enough to make the turn. Why would I want to do that? The risk outweighs the reward. Now, in a race, that's a different story, but for street riding or even an occasional track day (which the 1125R is designed for), I think the ZTL2 would be more than adequate. If I were going to race, I'd buy a race replica bike designed for the task, not try to make a street bike into a race bike. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"As I said, I don't apply the "race" method of "braking to the apex" and I don't think that's a good habit to develop for street riding." I 100% agree "If I were going to race, I'd buy a race replica bike designed for the task, not try to make a street bike into a race bike." I really think that Buell claims that "the 1125R is not a race bike, but a street bike" to relax the initial expectations for the 1125R, so that the bike is given a "brake" when the first models are put against the 1098, RSV, R1, GSXR. But judging from the chassis(stiffer than the XB which is definately one of the stiffest) ,the swingarm, the motor, the front (47mm), and HOPEFULY THE BRAKES TOO, the 1125R is as close to a race bike there is on the market right now. | ||
| Rfischer |
"...applied the brakes too early.." is a non-sequitor in the context it's being quoted here by Vagelis, i.e. alleged evidence of marginal or poor brake performance. The only way the tester quoted could conclude he 'braked too soon..' would be if he arrived at the corner too slow; a fortiori, the brake was powerful and performing perfectly, else he couldn't have scrubbed off 'too much' speed [or he isn't much of a rider to begin with..]. He would have arrived at the corner with the 'correct' speed. The simple truth is that the brake has a different feel because it is a different technology. That in no way takes away from its ability to stop the bike as well as or better than other conventional 2-rotor systems. And, BTW, note that the tester made the comparison to another bike with the conventional system as he recalled it from some time in the past. A less credible comparison I cannot imagine. Too many people are getting their shorts in a knot over ersatz issues tossed up by questionable commentators. Wait for the back-to-back tests and multi-bike shoot-outs for real, verifiable numbers and impressions. THEN whine if you will... | ||
| Blake |
WORD!  | ||
| M1combat |
MORE WORDS! | ||
| Jos51700 |
JoshCox didn't mention that the fenders on the Cycle Connection racebike were modified for better airflow to the rotor and caliper. This did solve a slight brake fade issue early on in the program. Ask him and maybe he'll send you photos. Mods were done with a plastic welder and about 10 minutes. One could use a propane torch if caution is in your toolbox. | ||
| Anonymous |
Oh for Christ's sake! The f*7%^'n XBRR that just won French Pro Twins championship had ZTL2 on it with no scoop. The XBRR that Crevier rode to ASRA Superbike and Supertwins victories had a ZTL2 brake with no scoop! What the hell will it take for people to get off our back? We don't have enough money to go WSBK, but if we did it would be with the ZTL. We don't have enough money to go MotoGP but if we did we'd run ZTL. Everywhere we do race it hard it with riders up to Jeremy McWilliam' caliber we run ZTL systems and the performance is superb. And Jake Zemke loses his Honda ride, partly for bitching on camera about his dual disc system fading so bad he was risking his life. But if a journalist going 12 seconds a lap slower than Jeremy says "It doesn't quite feel up to par with the import dual systems", that is credible? Or if some blabbermouth on the 'net starts spouting, 200 solutions show up for a problem that doesn't exist??? OK I'm going back to my cage now and work on building these things. The 1125's are great bikes, and 50 years from now they will be legendary. | ||
| Metalstorm |
and 50 years from now they will be legendary I'm betting it will only take 20 years or less  |
