| Author | Message | ||
     José_quiñones |
There are many suitable filters they could have used, starting with the current XB filters, or any number of HD filters, including HD's version of the internal cartridge filter that they sell. But they went with the Rotax filter. | ||
| M1combat |
I hadn't gotten the impression that Buell didn't let Rotax use anything that they had used before... I don't think I've ever read that from a Buell source of any kind. It is an all new engine as far as I can tell. Some very similar features to what Rotax has done in the past (and why wouldn't there be) and even more new stuff from what I can tell... Who said "Nothing is the same, Buell did all the engineering and they happen to be nice enough to let Rotax assemble the engine for them."? As I understand it they gave them all of the design parameters that were important to them and said "Keep in touch". | ||
| M1combat |
Ahhh... you were replying to Court... I can see where he's coming from to some extent although, yeah... they seem more similar than an egg and a golf ball. I mean, I know you stated that the stroke and the oil filter are the same but I mean really... Are those two things even remotely like engine defining characteristics? The stroke to some degree maybe, but certainly not the oil filter or the type of slipper it uses... That's just technology. It looks to me like there is more different than the same and the stuff that's different seems to be fairly significant. Things like only driving one cam with the chain so you can have a steeper valve angle, 72 degrees instead of 60... I'd really like to know what Buell's input into the transmission was. Is the V990 a dry sump? What about the cooling system? Did they redesign that at all while they were at it? Is the crank offset the same? I would doubt it with a new V-angle. The cases don't look that similar on the outside. The entire valve train is different isn't it? I suppose oil filters are a pretty defining part though... | ||
| Reepicheep |
I picked up the promotional literature for the 1125r at Mid Ohio... I think I was allowed to... it was sitting out on the table. It was fairly clear about an engine that was jointly developed with Rotax, and the two page spread showing the engine being developed was clearly in Austria. | ||
| Naustin |
Court, are you suggesting that Buell had a prototype with a rotax engine in 1986? I'd really like to see that picture! | ||
| Davegess |
Court, are you suggesting that Buell had a prototype with a rotax engine in 1986? NO, all may be revealed come spring. | ||
| Court |
I'm sorry . . . we don't discuss past product.  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Here is the actual quote from the "big" glossy catalog, page 5, a caption on the page with three pictures of the engine (one with blueprints, clearly showing the Austrian AC receptacles, one with the engine on a hoist, with a test stand with german labels, and one with Erik with a PJ1 (!?) can beside him where he is cutting up a piece of what looks like heat shield material, probably to stop the whining about cooking right ankles).
At least they are honest about this one. My XB9 uses the *exact* same oil filter that a Toyota Corolla uses, and I have *yet* to see Buell give credit to Toyota for my engine.  | ||
| José_quiñones |
...the type of slipper it uses Rotax owns the patent on that vacuum-assisted slipper clutch, it was used previously in the V990 used by Aprilia. Things like only driving one cam with the chain so you can have a steeper valve angle The BMW K1200 uses the same chain/gear drive setup, and also the finger follower cam actuation. The Helicon is the third recent engine to use this type of valve actuation, behind the BMW K1200 and the BMW/Rotax F800 parallel twin engine. They probably copied their own F1 engine. The Rotax V990 has a conventional shim/bucket setup. Going through the rest of the "Features" in the Brochure: Twin side mounted radiators: the thing that Buell did differently than anybody else that has used this setup is in how the air flows through them, in through the sides of the bike out the back instead of blowing it out the sides of the bike. Integrated dry sump and oil reservoir: while the V990 used a separate oil tank, the BMW/Rotax F800 used an integrated oil reservoir before the Helicon did. In addition, other Rotax engines have previously used this concept, like their four stroke watercraft engine. The only thing that is truly unique to Buell that I can see is the compensated front sprocket, a good idea. There are other parts that are shared, like the stator, maybe the starter motor, the clutch springs/plates, the oil and water pump assemblies, etc. Aprilia owners will have an easier time getting these parts at a Buell dealer than their own dealer. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on October 11, 2007) | ||
| M1combat |
Maybe I'm confused.... Are you trying to say that Buell has stated that everything in this engine has never been done before? Are you trying to say that these technologies don't belong in a Buell because they've been used elsewhere? Are you just trying to make sure everyone knows that Buell didn't think up these wonderful ideas (except maybe the compensated sprocket)? What's your point? Did someone say that Buell locked themselves and an entirely NEW team of Rotax engineers in a room for a few years thinking of new ideas and every time they thought of one they checked it against all other manufacturers current and soon to be on the market ideas and if they had done the same thing they went back to the drawing board? If so I guess I just didn't read it... | ||
| M1combat |
"Rotax owns the patent on that vacuum-assisted slipper clutch. " So what you're really saying is... HA HA!!! It's not Buell's :-P!!!! Did someone say it was? I feel like I've missed some sort of major industry wide announcement or something... could you please point it out to me Jose? | ||
| José_quiñones |
I'm responding to Court's statement in this earlier in this thread.
That is clearly not accurate. Now compare that statement to the following two: From Erik Buell (from http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/08/03/erik- buell-interview/)
That is not completely accurate, IMO, but much more so than Court's. Buell Press release
That is the most accurate representation of the collaboration between Buell/BRP that I have seen to date. | ||
| Court |
The engine was designed by Erik Buell 19 years ago. For the current project specifications were provided and proposals solicited from several high cred engine builders. They were to build the Buell designed motor. Nothing prohibited them, and others did, from using current parts, to accomplish the end result. My statement was in regard to the goofy inferences early on that somehow this was "the Aprilia motor" and Buell was using it. It is nothing remotely akin to that. I would suspect, like a team building an Indy car, that where parts existed they would use them. Ditto technology like the finger followers. Often times genius is the result of HOW things are brought together, not that each of the components is, itself, some "new invention". Bach and Beethoven, I hasten to point out, used the very same notes I do when I play music. Buell did NOT "Invent" every part in the motor. They tightly prescribed how it was to function and levels of performance. They then, WISELY, went to others with greater working knowledge of production and design techniques with instructions to submit a motor and a plan to build it in numbers while tightly adhering to QA/QC standards. Buell people (in fact one guy in Austria with BRP/Rotax is a former Buell employee but was not involved in this project) were intimately involved (as in physically present in Austria) throughout the process. Bottom line. . . every individual component of the motor is neither new nor designed by Buell. The motor has NEVER existed before. If only BMW had been so wise as to follow this process on their EFI system . . . or Honda on their frames. I think this discussion is more semantics than content. If you are offended that Buell designed and engine that incorporated an existing oil filter. . . by all means pass on the Buell and buy one of the many motorcycles that has a one of a kind, designed specifically for this model, oil filter. Court (off to the BMW dealer to plop down $1534 for a "tune up") | ||
| Indy_bueller |
There was a coach at Road America that rides a Mille. I asked him to compare the two bikes, and he said that the 1125R has a better suspension and engine than the Mille. | ||
| Court |
My bet is that when the dust settles and the breath runs out we'll find what we have before . . . there are any really "bad" motorcycles, it boils down to a matter of personal preference. There are things I like about Buell that have kept my spirit strong when times were tough and would keep me firmly in the camp even if someone revealed that the Mille was PROVEN beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a better motorcycle. The forest and the trees . . . to me. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
There was a coach at Road America that rides a Mille. I asked him to compare the two bikes, and he said that the 1125R has a better suspension and engine than the Mille. Did this guy have a Buell affiliation? | ||
| Indy_bueller |
No. He was a coach from Private Track Time. The Mille is his personal track bike. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Wow, then I guess if he had a bias, it would be for the Mille. Cool to hear he thinks so highly of the Buell. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
Yes. I actually know the guy, he is from Bloomington Indiana. He used to ride with my BRAG club every once in a while. I wouldn't say he's partial to Buells, but he is open-minded toward them. He has several friends that ride them and work for Buell of Bloomington. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The 1125r is a great no excuses bike, but so is the GSXR1000, the CBR1000rr, the Aprilla Mille, and the Ducati 1098. Of all those bikes, I would choose the 1125r in a heartbeat, but others would choose others, for just as legitimate (but different) reasons as mine. A buddy of mine went to mid ohio with me... he bleeds honda red when you poke him... He liked the 1125r a lot, but wouldn't buy one because it sounded wrong (it's a twin). Ironically, thats the same reason I wouldn't buy a FZ1... it sounded wrong (it's an inline four). Lots of good bikes out there, and the 1125r is among the best. | ||
| Ceejay |
reep-we all bleed red when you poke us. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Bottom line is that there are LOTS of great bikes on the market. It's a wonder that anyone can make a decision on what to buy. The GREAT thing is that Buell can throw its hat in the ring with the best of the best now. I still can't believe it. | ||
| Blake |
Some folks sure get twisted up about giving Buell any credit for having a new and unique engine in their latest sporting motorcycle fixin' to hit the market. What's your deal JQ? You seem to think you know more about the 1125R engine and its development than anyone else. Please explain how that can possibly be. If an architect designs a radically innovative new building, but uses standard I-beams and reinforced concrete and other standardized components/materials to construct it, is it just another incarnation of another building, or is it unique? Seems to me you are going way out of your way and grasping at straws to try to diminish the innovation and uniqueness of the 1125R. Why? I don't get it. It's a completely new engine designed, engineered and built specifically and only for the 1125R per Buell specification and with Buell collaberation. Nothing more, nothing less. It uses some components and technology previously employed in other Rotax engines. Them's the hard cold facts amigo. Let's ride! | ||
| José_quiñones |
That's consistent with the press release I quoted earlier, I agree with both, I didn't agree with Court's but it's semantics, not content. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I do not think that there are many good bikes on the market. The good bikes are really very few. Aprilia Mille ?? I never liked the Aprilia RSV. Why ?? I think that there is something wrong with the balance of the bike, because the center of gravity is very high. I have friends on RSVs that complain about this. Especialy the pre '04 models were really bad. They feel like there is a big rock attached at the top of the fuel tank, and it takes a lot of time to get used to it. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
OK so you eliminated the Mille. Great. | ||
| M1combat |
LOL. One less thing . | ||
| Brumbear |
I may be wrong but does the Vrod have the same slipper clutch | ||
| Crashm1 |
My RC also has a high COG which is kinda weird for about the first hundred miles after that it is pretty much a non issue. In fact an awful lot of the RC guys raise the rear ride height by 20 to 30mm or lower the front 5 or 10mm or both so that the bike turns in quicker and gets better traction on corner exit. I've ridden a couple RSVs and like the ergos better than the RC but that's about it. The RC is faster and after spending a couple grand on Ohlins suspenders and setup handles better. The 1125 should stomp both bikes pretty easily which is why I plan on selling the Honda in the spring so I can buy another Buell. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Another bad thing about the RSV : Horrible fuel tank desing. Brake hard, or drive over sudden bumps, and your 'nuts' are realy crashed on the front of the fuel tank. I drove a '03 RSV for 40 km, and I was having 'nut' pains. RSV ?? No way. I think the RSV is a great choice when your woman wants to quit the 'pills', and you hate using a 'rubber'. |
