| Author | Message | ||
     S1eric |
I saw some pictures of the new Honda a couple of days ago, And the first thing that caught my attention was the exhaust. It looks like water would run right down the exhaust system if you let it sit in the rain for any amount of time. S1Eric | ||
| S1eric |
Sorry to get off topic about the honda. This also got my attention. Some people never listen, but one thing is for sure, they are not at the Buell factory. That doesn`t sound like an open flow of ideas to me. Maybe just a miss quote. Or i`m reading to much into it. Just interesting. S1Eric | ||
| Trojan |
Trojan, that instrumentation data accumulated for that spring loaded tensioner ought to be published. I can't think of a better defense for the "snake oil" claims. No need to argue about it, just show the strain gauge results for the unmodified stock assembly under some real world scenarios. If I still had the data I would publish it straight away. Unfortunately the computer that I was using in 2003/4 was infected by a virus and all of the data on it was lost. Since we now know by experience just how well the belt tensioners work I never bothered to try and get it back in the intervening years. There will always be claims of 'snake oil' on aftermarket parts that claim to improve upon the original. Some of the claims I have seen for parts have been nothing short of outrageous. However, these tensioners have been on sale now for 4 years and we have thousands of users who know just how good they are. Take a look on www.ukbeg.com and you'll see just how highly rated they are. | ||
| Anonymous |
Our research and experience has shown that most belt breakages occur not from stone damage or foreign objects, but when the suspension extends such as when crossing speed humps, railway crossings or opther quite sudden bumps. This puts massive strain on the belt and bearings, and results in snapped belts. When the sprung tensioner was first introduced I sent one to the Buell factory for their views, but never received any feedback or reply. My view is that it isn't fitted at the factory purely because it would add cost to the manufacture of the bike. . . . If I still had the data I would publish it straight away. Unfortunately the computer that I was using in 2003/4 was infected by a virus and all of the data on it was lost. And I'm sure your dog ate your homework as well. Goodyear specifically has requested the fixed idler, though Buell would provide any idler design required. The belts work best when preloaded, hence the Buell rear suspension and belt design. Belt breakages, which are becoming very rare because of detail design improvements of the belt and belt system, are simply not caused by over-tension under extension. The bumps you describe also have the characteristic of putting large shock loads on the belt because of loss of ground contact and ground/wheel speed differences; a 2003 Gates belt, weakened by improper handling during a tire change, might fail from such loads. But to suggest that the spring-loaded idler would change this is nonsensical. We're all for the profit motive, and we admire the work Free Spirit (an Italian company, its products marketed by Trojan) has done on belt primary drives, but to suggest that the XBs or the 1125 need a spring-loaded belt idler to prevent belt failures is selling snake oil. | ||
| Trojan |
And I'm sure your dog ate your homework as well. Goodyear specifically has requested the fixed idler, though Buell would provide any idler design required. The belts work best when preloaded, hence the Buell rear suspension and belt design. The testing was done by Free Spirits and I had a copy of their data, simple as that. I have never needed the research data since the product was introduced so have never bothered trying to replace it. Please don't try to make this into a personal slagging match. Belt breakages, which are becoming very rare because of detail design improvements of the belt and belt system, are simply not caused by over-tension under extension. The bumps you describe also have the characteristic of putting large shock loads on the belt because of loss of ground contact and ground/wheel speed differences; a 2003 Gates belt, weakened by improper handling during a tire change, might fail from such loads. But to suggest that the spring-loaded idler would change this is nonsensical. Maybe you should leave the US a bit more often and come to the UK or Europe then. Belt breakages over here are far more prevalent through 'shock' as you call it than for any other reason. Your data obviously comes from dealer returns etc, whereas ours comes from actual owners, most of whom have lost confidence in the dealer network and don't even bother telling them of belt breakages any more. Dealers used the 'Tyre changing' excuse long after the first belts were replaced, and still do when they think they can get away with it. When you do tell them they obviously don't pass the information to you or you would know this. Recent belts are much improved but I know of at least 5 bikes that have still suffered from this. I also know of plenty of belts that have failed even before a tyre has been changed. The sprung tensioner still preloads the belt almost as much as the fixed item. The advantage is that it offers some shock resistance when it is needed. The other advantage of the sprung tensioner is the improvement in suspension feel. All I can say is that if you haven't tried it you just won't know how much better it actually is. We're all for the profit motive, and we admire the work Free Spirit (an Italian company, its products marketed by Trojan) has done on belt primary drives, but to suggest that the XBs or the 1125 need a spring-loaded belt idler to prevent belt failures is selling snake oil Absolute bollocks. The belt tensioner is as much snake oil as the ZTL brake or any other engineering principle. Or is it just different because Buell didn't think of it? As you admittedly haven't tried one, even though I sent one to the factory some years ago, I don't think you are qualified to pass judgement really are you? | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I am 100% with Trojan in this. The spring belt tensioner improves the working of the rear suspension on the XB. It took me 30 secs to realise this, after fitting it on the bike. And then I though : "Why Buell did not install it in the first place?" Of course, there are other aftermarket products that I tried that I did not like. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I'm all for designing by "theory" but alternate theories should also be checked out. Buell shouldn't argue this from a theoretical viewpoint but should buy one of these from Trojan and test it out. Why argue that a product has no merit without benefit of actually using it. Had you tried the darn thing and it proves to be snake oil then so be it. But you argue from a one sided position without benefit of putting the snake oil through its paces. That smacks of "not invented here" in my book. | ||
| Anonymous |
Hell yes, we have tried springloaded tensioners, and neither we nor Goodyear like what they do. But of course we are the idiots, especially in the eyes of those who sell aftermarket replacements. Or better yet, we are the greedy penny-pinchers who sell inferior product to make a buck. That is what is being said, and let me tell you, it is a load. Anyone who thinks Buell is closed-mided and does not try many engineering approaches and look at what the aftermarket and the competiton does has never been at Buell and seen the facts, or is lying if they have been there. And anyone who thinks Buell is all about "theory" and not about testing has never worked for Buell or listened to Erik talk about the Buell design philosophy and processes!!! Claims that Buell is closed-minded are absolute lies; we look at and test so many things, and then pick what is best. So, go ahead and bash us, Trojan, and while you are at it make sure you sell t-shirts based on our work. | ||
| Ducxl |
but to suggest that the XBs or the 1125 need a spring-loaded belt idler to prevent belt failures is selling snake oil. I agree..BMC has ENGINEERED these machines to do a job.Problems arise when end users feel they know better than the engineers.My Buells' of course are BONE STOCK.I learned my lesson long ago | ||
| Vagelis46 |
OK, this weekend I will put the OEM fixed tensioner on the XB to double check it!!! Since the factory is so confident, and have checked the sring tensioner, and think it does nothing, I will give the OEM another try. But if I once again find the spring tensioner to be better ( I suspect it will), then for me BUELL should be more skeptical with their claims. If the Buell factory has done all the testing, why all the UK mags gave bad reviews for the 1125R's suspension?? "So, go ahead and bash us, Trojan, and while you are at it make sure you sell t-shirts based on our work." This is a very bad argument. I am dissapointed. | ||
| Jaimec |
Make sure you take absolute measures. We want objective measurements, not subjective opinion. Going in BELIEVING Buell is wrong is the wrong way to start, IMHO... | ||
| Court |
That's actually a very accurate statement and I'm going to expound on it a bit. Some of you are aware of the innovative way that Buell has structured some of the engineering function to provide total responsibility for the total life of the product for each part on the motorcycle. It is amazing stuff. It's also kinda neat to see an environment where a smart young engineer can stop an entire process, led by older, more senior, engineers. Once he calls his "yellow light". . . things stop until agreement is reached. It's really a cool system. In addition, when Buell collaborates with outside engineering groups, Goodyear for instance in the instant case, there are some powerful things that occur. I'm telling you . . . if you have not read Organizing Genius by Warren Bemis, you might enjoy reading about some of the most effective teams (yes, the Clinton campaign was even one of them along with Kelly Johnson's Skunk Works) in history. I'll be eager to learn more about this. Court | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Ducxl, Seems to me Erik Buell was once on the other side of the fence because he felt he could do it better than Harley. There are many smart folks out there experimenting in their garages and they certainly do come up with things the OEMs never dreamed of. Failure to sell their ideas sometimes leads these types to start their own companies. Why do you suppose Google and MicroSoft buy up all these starter companies all the time. Great ideas that their people hadn't thought of. I really enjoy my Buell but have worked hard to get the heat off my leg and better cool that back cylinder so that the fan doesn't come on so often. I've improved on that through my own methods. Also the mirrors suck (can't see nothing but buzz at most rpms). Maybe Anonymous should kick in his fan and cool off and quit acting like Buell engineers are Pope-like. If that were truly the case then there'd never be recalls and once a model came out there'd never be improvements in subsequent years. You gotta realize that BadWeb isn't just a Buell love fest, it's a place to share ideas and offer differing opinions on any and all Buellicious subjects. Peace. | ||
| Court |
Just to "keep it real". . . .let's clarify that no reference to "pope like" didn't enter the thread until the last post. See ya'll next week! | ||
| Paint_shaker |
"Goodyear specifically has requested the fixed idler..." Seeing as to how Goodyear is the one who LOSES money by replacing belts under warranty, I think the above qoute about says it all... But hey, what does Goodyear know anyways?? (Message edited by Paint shaker on October 03, 2007) | ||
| Al_lighton |
I'm probably going to regret draggin my butt into this one... Springs store energy. Then they give it back. I get very suspicious when I see a spring that isn't in parallel with some type of damping mechanism. The belt is also a spring of sorts, and I'm sure it has some damping of it's own due to the hysteresis properties of the rubber. But the internal cords in the belt are likely not very elastic at all. How those two would play together seems to be something that could just as easily cause more problems than they solve, especially without some sort of damping on the spring. If the position and idler diameter is engineered properly, and I have no reason to doubt that Buell did it properly, I don't see how the swingarm extending would cause any more trauma to the belt than the normal swingarm compression would. If the path length doesn't change over the allowable travel of the swingarm, then I have a hard time seeing how extension could add any shock to the belt. The ad copy on the belt tensioner says that "the tension is increased to an alarming degree". This can only happen if the path length is increased. Have you quantified that path length increase at full swingarm extension? And even if there is a slight path length increase at full extension, isn't it only present when the power transmission tension is way reduced? Who picks their back wheel off the ground while the engine is transmitting high power through the belt? I've only heard of belts breaking when large power transients are applied. That surely doesn't happen when the rear wheel is off the ground. After numerous runs on the dyno watching that very tight belt wiggling around like a hula dancer on coke, I don't personally see how adding an additional flexing member into that equation could help. Seems like it would make that worse. But that's just theoretical discussion. I've heard arguments here saying that it helps suspension and belt breakage. Data that proves that instead of anecdotal stories of folks liking it would be good. But I'm a realist, the aftermarket resources don't usually support the kind of funding required to do this. In the end, the aftermarket part company with integrity produces something that he thinks solves a problem and what the limited testing he can do supports, and the consumer is left making up his own mind based on the anecdotal information available. Buell, or any manufacturer, does not have the luxury of depending on anecdotal info for their product releases or they won't be in business long. Perhaps the reason I'm skeptical of this particular product is that I've yet to break a belt, on ANY Buell. So for me, it is fixing a problem that I don't have. Perhaps if I had been breaking belts I'd be looking for relief. But I'd be willing to bet that there are more Buell riders that haven't broken their belt than have. There certainly have been aftermarket products that seemed to have been designed merely to separate the customer from his money, or would appear that way from the poor engineering existing in the product (Hayden KrankVents and primary chain tensioners come to mind). I don't for a second believe that this particular product falls in that category, Matt has far more integrity than that. Yet I remain unconvinced of it's benefits. Now, let's talk about right side air scoops...  Al | ||
| Xb984r |
I wonder if Buell thinks the right side air-scoop is "snake-oil",I bet there are more than a few XB riders that would disagree if they did.I have read about a few people on here having issues with drive side transmission bearings,could some Buells benefit from a little slack in the belt. | ||
| Anonymous |
Not "pope like" in any way, but also not stupid, greedy or any of the other coments tossed out about us. For example, the large right side scoop screws up the way the calibration works to meet emissions, and that is a big issue for us OE. You can say we are lying or stupid again, but the fact is we tested these and found we could not use them and still meet emissions. If it could deliver what we need of course we would put it on; we already pay for a plastic piece there. Does this sound complex and out there? Well, live in our world and you will find out how difficult and complex it really is. We have no problem with people modifying their bikes to their personal satisfaction. We hope each one enjoys himself or herself doing this. But their goals for the product may be different than those of the factory, and are probably less correct for accomplishing being in the OE business. The indivdual does not have to satisfy all that we do. What is unfair and untrue is when the customer then says we are "cheap", "stupid", etc. for not doing what they did. Vagelis, I think we'll see when customers get 1125's and they show up on the tracks what people think of the suspension. I believe the people who are going to look foolish are the journalists who said the suspension was bad, not the engineers at Buell. The fast guys who knew how to set up the bike were very happy, and that is what we are also hearing from every participant at the Inside Pass track days. Electraglide, nothing we have ever done is perfect, but the Buell bikes are getting very good, and we will make them better every year. Please do modify yours to your heart's content, but don't attack us because we didn't do what you did. Putting an aftermarket part on and riding it in one scenario is a far cry from what we do to make 12,000/yr of world legal bikes that lead H-D corporate in quality. So I certainly feel the arrogance and closed-mindedness is on the side of those who put on an accessory like this and then attack us for not putting it on OE. Peace indeed. | ||
| M1combat |
I've broken two. One was while landing a jump in second gear at about 60. I'd guess wheel speed was higher . It snapped as I touched down. The second was on a very cold dry day. It was about 15 degrees out. I decided to see how much traction I had (after dragging my feet to make sure it wasn't too slippery) and snapped the throttle shut and then closed. Snapped just as I got on the throttle. The first belt broke (As far as I know) due to the tension along the upper path. The second belt broke (as far as I know) due to tension along the upper path. A "shock" load in both cases. Both belts had issues before this... One had a hole in it and the other had been installed by just rolling it over the edge of the pulley without loosening the axle. I wanted to see how long it would last... It lasted about 20K miles (and probably 50 jumps). Anyway... Deceleration causes slack on the upper path. It seems to me that what happens after that is the engine spools up removing that slack and exceeds what the belt can handle with regards to tension. Nothing you do on the bottom will effect that in a good way... | ||
| Trojan |
Hell yes, we have tried springloaded tensioners, and neither we nor Goodyear like what they do. But of course we are the idiots, especially in the eyes of those who sell aftermarket replacements. Or better yet, we are the greedy penny-pinchers who sell inferior product to make a buck. That is what is being said, and let me tell you, it is a load. Now I think you have a complex. Nobody is suggesting that you sell inferior products, or that you are penny pinching. What I said is that ALL motorcycles (regardless of manufacturer)are full of compromises before they even leave the showrooms simply because of the demands made by emmissions and noise regulations, by having to cater for a massive range of riders and riding styles, and by the accountants that want to make a profit from selling them. If you cannot accept that premise then I suggest you are in the wrong business. It is possible to improve every new street motorcycle with the judicious application of some quality parts, and it seems that most manufacturers don't have a problem with this at all. In fact some manufacturers go so far as to give aftermarket manufacturers pre-production bikes so that aftermarket parts are available as soon as the bikes are released. If manufacturers made perfect bikes there would be no aftermarket at all and buying a bike would require a mortgage! Or is Buell right and the rest of the industry engineers , from MotoGP teams to 50cc scooter engineers, deluded in thinking that stock bikes can be improved? As another poster has already said, if Buell makes such perfect products why have we seen so many recalls and updates over the years? Take a look at any Buell meeting and see how many bikes you can spot that have NOT been modified in some way from stock. "So, go ahead and bash us, Trojan, and while you are at it make sure you sell t-shirts based on our work." Cheap shot anony, and certainly beneath somebody who we are supposed to believe is a person with influence in a multi national company. Do you really feel that threatened by a few T shirts that actually advertise and encourage YOUR products! As for integrity. We are not some nameless ebay scammers, but are a tiny company that happens to owe its existence to the fact that Buell owners could not find accessories for their bikes at reasoable prices here in the UK. If you telephone or e-mail my company you will speak to me or a member of my family. If I sell parts that are sub standard or don't work then my business and my family will suffer and it is me that will deal with it. I don't know who you are. I cannot pick up the phone and ask for you or your department because I don't know who or what they are. If Buell sells a product that is faulty or sub standard you will not personally suffer in any respect. The integrity of our company, and that of other reputable aftermarket sellers and producers such as Al at American Sport Bike and Marcello at Free Spirits, rests with the quality of service and parts that we deliver and on personal service. We cannot be anonymous. (Message edited by trojan on October 04, 2007) | ||
| Thesmaz |
DAMN!!! It took a while to get through all of these post and unfortunately it turned into a mud slinging contest.... Kind of disappointing really... I love my Buell, I love the aftermarket products that I have on it, and if something breaks or fails (aftermarket or OE) I'll contact the correct folks to get it fixed. I guess the biggest thing to remember is that these things are machines and every machines isn't perfect and they all break. Until the next problem (challenge) occurs I'm going to ride the piss out of!!!  | ||
| Coal400 |
Regardless of who's right or wrong: Its obvious there are some passionate folks here who really believe in what they do. It would be really hard to have a conversation on this subject, in a text medium no less, without offending someone - repeatedly in this case. The result is a shame, but no surprise. I still respect both parties and hope that these guys can still respect each other. Vagelis: quit causing a ruckus | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Hi Al, It is nice, that you entered the discussion. I also have not broken my belt, but installing the spring tensioner did improve the suspension. It is clear that the rear wheel follows and keeps contact to the road better. That is what I said in the first place, when starting this discussion, and then asked the factory if they are thinking about installing a spring tensioner on the 1125R. Anonymous said no. I am OK with this. But for me, a spring tensioner is the first part I will put on the 1125R, if I buy it. This forum is great because you get info from other members, and especially from ones that have a big experience in Buell. I would not have used an open airbox with K&N, or re-route the breathers unless I had read about it. There was no evidence that it would be a success, but it was. There were people saying that it would make a positive difference, so I tried it, and was a success. Other people said that it would making the powerband worse ,and sould stay with the factory design. I am glad I tried it for myself, although in theory it could make no difference. In previous years, trying something similar in other brands I owned, was a bad mod, and I returned to stock. But on the XB it made a big positive difference. The spring tensioner is something similar. There are people (like me) that tried it and found that it improves the rear suspension, and others that think that in theory, it would make no difference. What can I say?? I thought sharing this experience of mine, and ask the factory what they think about it, and if they actually have tried it. Anonymous, "The fast guys who knew how to set up the bike were very happy, and that is what we are also hearing from every participant at the Inside Pass track days. " So, the 1125R is a typical Buell, very sensitive to suspension settings, like the XB. I really like that !!! I just hope that the Buell factory is open-minded, always tries new improvements, and offers us the best bike possible. I just hope Buell introduced the 08' new oil pump design in '04. It would have saved HD the new engine that I got under warranty, and me the frustration of staying 2 months away from the corners. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Anony, please keep in mind that until recently being a Buell owner meant you had to fix and modify things to keep the bike on the road. Many of us are from that background and naturally question systems that have caused us grief in the past. Of course we don't see all of your hard work and research, but remmber, you are not the person stranded on the side of the road with a broken belt. These things are hard to forget, but we are still riding our Buells because we love them. We are the people that argue with those that mock Buells for unreliability, etc. It is disappointing for our opinions, built on years of experiences, to be dismissed out of hand with no real explanations. Some of us are capable of understanding the technical side of thngs and really appreciate when you share them. Letting us know that you tried the sprung tensioner with poor results at the beginning of this thread would have avoided much of this animosity. | ||
| Djkaplan |
I bet the spring loaded tensioner (you just know it's going to be done) for the 1125R sells just as well as the one for XB's. | ||
| Rfischer |
"Letting us know you tried the spring tensioner..." Oh, Lord!  See the 2nd post at the beginning of this thread; 09/24 @ 10:06 p.m. | ||
| Ducxl |
Rfischer you're taking posts out of context."That" statement on 9/24 was in response to the question "IF" BMC would provide one on the 1125r  | ||
| Dre99gsx |
Buell 1stpass in pocono, I noticed a handfull of 1125r's with fraying belts. One had quite a bit of thread sticking out on one sode of the belt. Those who have been snapping belts, wasn't there a design improvement in '06+ model years? Just like with anything, there will always be something better. Look at turbo intercooler design. Most MFGs supply vehicles with tiny intercoolers. Yet, the aftermarket is swamped with humongous units with large volumes and low backpressure. You may make more power with the larger units, but you increase your lag. Obviously, the spring loaded tensioner may solve one problem, but I'm sure there is a legitimate argument to why the stationary tensioner may be better. They both may work, but they both may be dealing with different issues. If you have XBs racing with the stock tensioner, winning races (granted many have gone to chains), do you actually think the spring loaded unit will let them corner harder? Buells already have the best handling bar none from almost every reviewer out there. How much more improvement can there really be from spring loaded? They do use spring loaded tensioners on timing belts, but in that system, you have fixed cam/crank shaft locations. It may not be ideal to have a springloaded tensioner to a system where there is an additional axis of motion on the belt. (Message edited by dre99gsx on October 04, 2007) | ||
| Anonymous |
Spatten, Believe me, no one knows more about the shortcomings of our products than we do. We make them as good as we possibly know how during testing, but as soon as we launch there is always something new we learn. But we are not alone in this. Our products have not been perfect, but few are. As far as stranding riders at the side of the road, we track these at least through the warranty period, and these are what we call Level One failures. Anything on that list gets highest priority. But we also have access to other products Level One failures, and we are actually pretty good. The goal we get from leadership is to work towards never having a Level One. There is no company out there that has achieved this and we would love to be the first. Although overall it was an amazing improvement in quality and reliability over the tube frame bikes,the XB9 of 2003 was a disappointment to us from a belt durability standpoint. It delayed launch a number of months. We made several revisions at significant expense on the 03 drives, and these belts are now much better. We also started from scratch on a new supplier and design parameters that came out in 2004. Since that time we have made a number of incremental improvements, and now failures are far fewer. The failures also do not cause the destruction that chain failures do. In almost all cases these failures are predicated by damage that could be caught with inspection as we ask in the manual. However, we would like to get to a belt that never requires inspection, in short one that is tremendously resistant to big nasty chunks of debris. We are getting closer. As far as new product is concerned, the 1125 will be on the F revision of its belt design when it goes into production; the bikes running at Inside Pass are on Revision D. And yes, we started the project with level A. So we work the design very hard and spend a lot of money on it. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Anony: Great info and perspective. thanks! I can tell you the quality of my 2003 XB is worlds beyond my 99 X1. If the 1125 is another big jump I'll be very impressed. |
